Anpr, questions for Madcop.

[deltaf]

Hi again.
I have a coupla questions about the ANPR setups that are currently being used.
From what i know of them, they are programmed to take your number plate and feed it to the national computer, which then feeds back any relevant info, such as stolen, no tax, outstanding warrants etc.
Main question is, do these have a live video that gets recorded, or are they just for plate recognition?
Reason i ask, is that a mate of my bros got pulled the other day, the cops said he was wheelie-ing his bike and it was on video.
On his paperwork they gave him, it said "ANPR".
They also arrested him for failing to stop, but he had stopped, and for suspicion of stolen property, ie, the bike he was riding, (his own).
After some checking they de-arrrested him and rode his bike up the road without his permission.
Also they filled out the paperwork, gave it him back, and then just as he was about to leave they took it back and added other details!
Whats your view on all of this?

[madcop]

As far as I am aware there is not the facility at the moment for ANPR to video the target car and there would be no point either. The Idea of ANPR is to site it in an area where there has been a specific problem relating to criminal activity. It is then backed up by a number of patrol cars or bikes further along the road as it takes about 15 to 20 seconds to get he information up on the screen.

I would think that the video evidence was gained at a previous incident and information about the wheelie on video added to the marker on PNC which was activated when he went through the ANPR site.

Those cars/vehicles that are used in crime (the local pool scrote mobile with no registered owner) and are identified as such will have informtion markers placed on them which is linked up to the DVLA data base.
Therfore if you have been a bit silly in your car i.e. wheel spinning handbrake turns etc and have been reported, there may well be a marker on it that states when and where this occurred.
I cannot comment on your friends dilemna as I do not know any of the circumstances, either his or the stopping officers. I will make a few wild guesses further on in this post as to why, which could be a long way wide of the mark.

Failing to stop for Police in uniform is now an arrestable offence and has been so since 1/10/02 under the Police Reform Act 2002, along with several other motoring offences.

If you are suspected of having committed an arrestable offence, even if you actually did not do so, the Police officer stopping you has a power to arrest you and gain evidence by questioning.
Police can arrest anyone who they suspect has committed an arrestable offence and can arrest them if they suspect an arrestable offence has been committed even if it hasn't.

Powers of arrest

Public or Citizens arrest

1) Anyone can arrest a person who is committing an arrestable offence or Anyone whom is suspected to be committing an arrestable offence

2) When an arrestable offence has been committed, Anyone can arrest a person who is guilty of it or anyone who is suspected of being guilty of it.


Police powers to arrest

1) When a Police officer has reasonable grounds to suspect an arrestable offence has been committed
He can arrest anyone whom he suspects is guilty of it.

2) Anyone who is about to commit an arrestable offence

3) Anyone who he suspects is about to commit an arrestable offence

The powers that are open to citizens are also used by Police officers who are citizens.
Citizens cannot use the extra powers that police have to arrest. i.e. suspecting someone is about to commit an arrestable offence.


Arrestable offences have no time limit on executing the power. The power of arrest can be activated years after the event and is still lawful!

I would suspect that he was arrested for the offence of failing to stop, not at the time of the ANPR check (as he obviously did so they could arrest him) but possibly when he was required to do so at some other time and either did not realise he was required to stop or thought 'Fcuk you, I'm out of here' with a big right handfull (his registration number having been recorded by the officer trying to effect the stop whenever the original incident occurred)

I cannot say why they drove his machine unless they wished to test something they were not happy about in relation to Construction and Use Regs. They would have the power to do so even without his authority if it was for this purpose.

I would think the reason they wrote ANPR on the forms is something to do with collating statistics for the ANPR operation so that whoever has the job of collating detected offences either criminal or Motoring can easily identify those that wer attributed to the specific use of ANPR.

'New Labour' have the police recording performance in just about every possible area they can do so. We spend more time working out figures for statistics than out on patrol to get the statistics in the first place

ANPR is a very useful and succesful tool in cracking down on the movement and activity of the criminal fraternity. It also can have an impact on those that seek to cheat the system which honest motorists have to pay dearly for.


>> Edited by madcop on Thursday 12th December 03:18

[Richard C]

....wheel spinning handbrake turns etc....[/unquote]

Madcop - interested to know the basis for reporting people seen executing handbrake turns and spinning or skidding wheels. This cropped up as a senior police edict requiring organisers to penalise competitors on road rallying in North Wales - this has caused some problems. Handbrake turns are often the only way to negotiate narrow hairpins around here and skidding is easily done in front wheel drive cars.

Is it that the police have deemed that the car in no longer under control ? Competitors will mainatin accurately that their cars are under precise control.

[deltaf]

Thanks Madcop, thats cleared up a lot of questions.
Nice one.

[madcop]

Richard C said:

....wheel spinning handbrake turns etc....[/unquote]

Madcop - interested to know the basis for reporting people seen executing handbrake turns and spinning or skidding wheels. This cropped up as a senior police edict requiring organisers to penalise competitors on road rallying in North Wales - this has caused some problems. Handbrake turns are often the only way to negotiate narrow hairpins around here and skidding is easily done in front wheel drive cars.

Is it that the police have deemed that the car in no longer under control ? Competitors will mainatin accurately that their cars are under precise control.

Strictly speaking to the letter of the law, if the car is doing anything other than proceeding without losing adhesion on any of the tyres, then it is deemed to be not under control.

I understand about controlled oversteer and have had to practice it and become profficient at it to acheive the level of competence I now have (I never purposefully induce oversteer on the roads as although I have the competence to do it there is always a time when it may go wrong).

I would still have reservations about it being completely under control as there is no room for avoiding manouvres should they be required, once the car is in a sideways slide.

There is a huge conflict over the law and the sport at the moment. Public 'Roads' (not under the definition of the legal public road definition which relates only to excise duty) which are used for this type of sport are always and never ever going to be anything other than a road or public place. The fact that the public can have unrestricted access to watch these rallies from the verges (which are part of the road) maintains the full definition of 'Road' within the meaning of the act. Therefore all the appropriate offences which relate to 'motor vehicles' or even 'mechanically propelled vehices' will still apply to that vehicle when it is on that road. Even the stages that are set through Forestry Commission land could amount to a public place under the definition and as such, certain parts of the road traffic act apply.

Dangerous/Careless/inconsiderate driving applies to mechanically propelled vehicles and this to a public place.
For a car to be driven on the edge of its control and for it to go over the edge and into the hedge, verge spectators, would be considered as such. This is not an uncommon phenomena with rally stages when drivers are trying to push themselvs and their machines to the limit to save time.

That is where the conflict with the law arises, even though the roads are closed to other traffic which may be travelling the same or opposite direction to the competitors.

Evidence in court of Careless driving can be admitted on the evidence of one independant witness. The police only have to obtain a statement from the aggrieved person who saw the manouvre. The definition of careless driving is that

the standard of driving fell below that of a careful and competent driver.

Rally drivers are obviously competent but the whole ethos of racing a car even against time does not bode well towards careful, especially if they crash in the process.
I hope that answers your question.

[regmolehusband]

Your replies are always interesting to read, comprehensive and educational Madcop. But I can't help thinking things are going just a little crazy in this country and your comments above regarding the conflict with motorsport have reinforced my view.

I'm glad my road and stage rallying days were over in the early eighties and I'll be in a nursing home before demented zealots like Brunstrom make it impossible to move a wheel. I feel truly sorry for my two sons though.

[Richard C]

Madcop

Thanks for taking the trouble to give a very detailed answer. Your posts earn my respect.

My road rallying days were over in the early 80's - driving on the road caefully in North Wales everyday is a calculated risk to ones'licence; driving in a competitive manner with the attitude being imposed from the top is taking the risk too far. But my stage rallying days are far from over.

The issue of loss of adhesion while under control is obviously one that is open to wide interpretation even 'diktat' where perhaps expert debate is needed. But if one ends up in front of the bench I suspect there is too much preconception and probably ignorance to see it as anything other than police reporting = offence = harsh punishment.

[hertsbiker]

oooh steady on. A wheelspin? corrr ! how reckless. How dangerous! look, my farts after a vindaloo are more dangerous to the public than a wheelspin. Why the big deal about trivia, have plod got nothing better to do? (really, I mean this as a serious question).

C

[steveblade_uk]

Yes police have much better things to do, but they dont get the choice. If the operation is arrest people wearing green overcoats then OUR police force will do it . They just do a job, unfortunateley policing is not always caried out in a way we like. Also the law is not always what we agree with but they have to uphold it even if IT IS WRONG OR UNJUST! TUFF JOB!

>> Edited by steveblade_uk on Saturday 14th December 23:11

>> Edited by steveblade_uk on Saturday 14th December 23:12

[hertsbiker]

Hack saw a 30 degree angled slice off the LHS of your front plate. This removes the reference point that ANPR picks up on. Plate is still legal, just not machine readable.

[steveblade_uk]

Hmmm, dunno about the hacksawed number plate and on my bike it makes no odds anyway, rear plate only required at the min. How long that will remain is anybodys guess. Point is though if the anpr does not read your plate it gets flagged for a human operator to look at anyway so I understand. Question, is this done in real time as you drive by? If not then it must be recorded for the operator to rewind and take a look. TWASN'T ME OK and im sticking to it! lol