Climate Change... did i miss anything important...

[lord summerisle]

up against the lentilists here...

www.singletrackworld.com/forum/read.php?f=2&i=2173192&t=2173192

[mybrainhurts]

Swallow anything, don't they....?

[HarryW]

Funny enough, David Bellamy was in the 'Driving' section of the ST this weekend and was expressing the view that there are a lot of scientists out there that do not agree with the current trend for blaming global warming on man and man made CO2.
However as it is not a fashionable stand point to have and they are effectively ignored. He complains that the counter arguement cannot be made as they cannot get their scientific papers 'published', ruling out any open scientific debate on the subject.
Sounds pretty much the way of all politics at presentto me. Any opposing view is shouted down and trivialised. The 'hysterics' seem to have the governments ear, and it would seem to be at the expense of free and open debate .
It will change, but when , perhaps when people wake up to the smoke and mirrors being used across the board.
It is difficult to find the information that counters the 'man is evil and needs protecting from himself' camp . I would love to be able to read freely all views and make my own informed decision. Last I heard was that the increase in warming if graphically plotted would lead a curve of the increases in CO2, indicating that CO2 is not a causer, but an effect of global warming . Perhaps its linked to aircraft con trails keeping the heat in , perhaps its just another earth generated cycle .

Don't you just love the 'fear management' crowd running the show at present................... I don't .

[mybrainhurts]

confused onabike said:

Why don't we get rid of this stupid exponentially expanding capitalism and introduce a stable carbon based economy that doesn't need to continually grow!

.....yeah, man, let's burn coal

[dilbert]

mybrainhurts said:

confused onabike said: Why don't we get rid of this stupid exponentially expanding capitalism and introduce a stable carbon based economy that doesn't need to continually grow! .....yeah, man, let's burn coal

Blooming right I say.

When everybody else is living in their mud huts, sod 4x4's rear wheel drive is where it's at. I'm gonna be driving my traction engine. Steam power generation in the garden. There's three hundred years plus of coal left.

Edited to add;

What I can't understand is why it's off the map to say that man IS inducing global warming with CO2, but why care?

>> Edited by dilbert on Tuesday 31st January 00:19

[mybrainhurts]

dilbert said:

What I can't understand is why it's off the map to say that man IS inducing global warming with CO2, but why care?

Yes, I've said this before, but not sure if you were within earshot...

Greenhouse gas is 97% water vapour.

CO2 is PART of the remaining 3%

More than 90% of CO2 occurs naturally....

So, how do we induce global warming with such a minute contribution to the demon gases..?

[dilbert]

mybrainhurts said:

dilbert said: What I can't understand is why it's off the map to say that man IS inducing global warming with CO2, but why care? Yes, I've said this before, but not sure if you were within earshot... Greenhouse gas is 97% water vapour. CO2 is PART of the remaining 3% More than 90% of CO2 occurs naturally.... So, how do we induce global warming with such a minute contribution to the demon gases..?

Like I said it's off the map really. I guess you must be one of those people that the US government and Exxon Mobil sponsored to sort us Brits out. I think someone said [yank]It's a den of thieves over there[/yank]

Ahh well..... Happy ground hog day or whatever it is you have over there.


>> Edited by dilbert on Tuesday 31st January 01:29

[paulhol]

i read the other day (might have been a link on here actually) that a volcanic eruption releases CO2 equivalent to 400,000 years of car use worldwide

[mybrainhurts]

dilbert said:

mybrainhurts said: dilbert said: What I can't understand is why it's off the map to say that man IS inducing global warming with CO2, but why care? Yes, I've said this before, but not sure if you were within earshot... Greenhouse gas is 97% water vapour. CO2 is PART of the remaining 3% More than 90% of CO2 occurs naturally.... So, how do we induce global warming with such a minute contribution to the demon gases..? Like I said it's off the map really. I guess you must be one of those people that the US government and Exxon Mobil sponsored to sort us Brits out. I think someone said [yank]It's a den of thieves over there[/yank] Ahh well..... Happy ground hog day or whatever it is you have over there.

Over there? Over where?

Oi'm over here with you, you dozy twonk.......

[speedy_thrills]

I like this one:

shov said:

i already tend not to use my heating, try to use a wood fire instead

It seems so counter intuitive that he/she is saving the environment by chucking wood into her 15% efficient (if they are lucky) open fireplace instead of using electricity that is made using high efficiency turbine systems and carbon scrubbers to clean gasses before they are released. The above is based on the assumption that global temperatures are being significantly altered by carbon dioxide emissions, which has yet to be proven IMO

I heard recently (Via the TVNZ news service) that actually new satellite data shows the greenhouse effect was strongest over forested areas (such as the Amazon), the reason is that apparently methane given off by decomposing plant matter. Far from causing global warming, deforestation (and re-planting if possible) is actually reducing the effect!

[D_Mike]

essentially because the climate is not a linear system, so, for example, a 2% increase in CO2 concentration can lead to a substantial rise in global surface temperatures. If you believe the models.

[lord summerisle]

speedy_thrills said:

I like this one: shov said: i already tend not to use my heating, try to use a wood fire instead It seems so counter intuitive that he/she is saving the environment by chucking wood into her 15% efficient (if they are lucky) open fireplace instead of using electricity that is made using high efficiency turbine systems and carbon scrubbers to clean gasses before they are released.

but then isnt Elec heating very inefficient compared to gas boilers - ie taking coal or gas, generating power, transporting that power via lines, then converting to heat?

Gas boilers are what 50-60% efficent? (doesnt stop me wanting a multi fuel stove tho )

[Einion Yrth]

D_Mike said:

essentially because the climate is not a linear system, so, for example, a 2% increase in CO2 concentration can lead to a substantial rise in global surface temperatures. If you believe the models.

That'll be the models that, given data from the past, fail to predict the present - I remain sceptical.

[simpo two]

So who spotted that suddenly GLOBAL WARMING is now rebranded CLIMATE CHANGE?

The climate has managed to go from volcanoes to glaciers quite happily on its own several times without any help from man. I suggest we just build houses further up the hill and deal with it, or we shall go bankrupt trying to achiebe anything. Remeber Canute?

[JMGS4]

HarryW said:

Funny enough, David Bellamy was in the 'Driving' section of the ST this weekend and was expressing the view that there are a lot of scientists out there that do not agree with the current trend for blaming global warming on man and man made CO2.

Along with another 18000 reported scientists who protested against the lies in Montreal/Kyoto

HarryW said:

The 'hysterics' seem to have the governments ear, and it would seem to be at the expense of free and open debate .

The hysterics (enviromentalists) are paid by the governments, millions evry year, do you really think they're going to spoil their own feedtrough???

[r988]

simpo two said:

So who spotted that suddenly GLOBAL WARMING is now rebranded CLIMATE CHANGE? The climate has managed to go from volcanoes to glaciers quite happily on its own several times without any help from man. I suggest we just build houses further up the hill and deal with it, or we shall go bankrupt trying to achiebe anything. Remeber Canute?

Or think laterally and genetically engineer gills for the next generation and live underwater

[motco]

lord summerisle said:

speedy_thrills said: I like this one: shov said: i already tend not to use my heating, try to use a wood fire instead It seems so counter intuitive that he/she is saving the environment by chucking wood into her 15% efficient (if they are lucky) open fireplace instead of using electricity that is made using high efficiency turbine systems and carbon scrubbers to clean gasses before they are released. but then isnt Elec heating very inefficient compared to gas boilers - ie taking coal or gas, generating power, transporting that power via lines, then converting to heat? Gas boilers are what 50-60% efficent? (doesnt stop me wanting a multi fuel stove tho )

Modern gas boilers (Sedbuk A) are up to 97% efficient. Electric heaters are all 100% efficient - in your home. They are only as efficient as the power station in effect, though.

[ewenm]

r988 said:

simpo two said: So who spotted that suddenly GLOBAL WARMING is now rebranded CLIMATE CHANGE? The climate has managed to go from volcanoes to glaciers quite happily on its own several times without any help from man. I suggest we just build houses further up the hill and deal with it, or we shall go bankrupt trying to achiebe anything. Remeber Canute? Or think laterally and genetically engineer gills for the next generation and live underwater

Precisely, stop spending bucket loads of money trying to hold back nature and start looking into how to accomodate the changes

>> Edited by ewenm on Tuesday 31st January 11:23

[Lion-O]

HarryW said:

Funny enough, David Bellamy was in the 'Driving' section of the ST this weekend and was expressing the view that there are a lot of scientists out there that do not agree with the current trend for blaming global warming on man and man made CO2. However as it is not a fashionable stand point to have and they are effectively ignored. He complains that the counter arguement cannot be made as they cannot get their scientific papers 'published', ruling out any open scientific debate on the subject. ....... I would love to be able to read freely all views and make my own informed decision.

I have in no way made up my mind about climate change but this is reminding me a little of the Intelligent Design debate in the US. The IDers also complain about the difficulty they have publishing their 'scientific' papers. I'm more than up for someone to demolish the Climate change argument but we have to have someone better than former botanist with no environmental background Bellamy doing it.

Here's why:

Bellamy's key claim that is used is that 555 of the world's 625 glaciers being monitored by the World Glacier Monitoring Service are growing not shrinking. This leads him to think that climate change is being over-reported. Fair enough. . . . except that when the World Glacier Monitoring Service was told about this, they replied 'this is complete bullshit'.

It turns out that Bellamy had been getting his info from two sources:

iceagenow.com: a website set up to promote a self-published book about the coming ice age. It claims that sea levels are falling, not rising; that the Asian tsunami was caused by the 'ice age cycle'; and that 'underwater volcanic activity - not human activity - is heating the seas'. The author, Robert Felix, btw, has no scientific background at all; he's a former architect. He claims that 55% of the world's glaciers are growing, and it seems that when Bellamy was copying this information he forgot to press the shift key for % and thus came up with a rather larger number.

so far so impressive.

the second source is the periodical 21st Century Science and Technology, which is published by a man who in 1989 received a 15-year sentence for conspiracy, mail fraud and tax-code violations. He has claimed that the British royal family is running an international drugs syndicate, that Henry Kissinger is a communist agent, that the British government is controlled by Jewish bankers, and that modern science is a conspiracy against human potential.


Let's continue to attack the evidence on climate change when it looks dodgy, but it does no one any good to be putting an ageing buffoon like Bellamy at the vanguard of the argument.

[Einion Yrth]

Lion-O said:

He has claimed that the British royal family is running an international drugs syndicate, that Henry Kissinger is a communist agent, that the British government is controlled by Jewish bankers, and that modern science is a conspiracy against human potential.

So an unimpeachable source then.