Injector upgrade (not for Lucas ECU!!)
Discussion
I'm beginning to think that I need new injectors in the Griff (I hoped to be able to put this off a bit so I could replenish the modification cash a bit) as nearly 1/3 of the map (high load and RPM) is basically a no-go area. My injectors have done close to 100k miles, so it wouldn't surprise me if they're a bit tired.
I'm running fully sequential injection, so in theory my injectors need to be bigger than most tuned Griffs. I don't want to go back to banked injection as the car is considerably smoother and a touch more responsive now, even with a barely refined map (set up by me
).
A ballpark figure for the injectors is 400cc/min @ 3 bar. That should be enough for all my future plans. Does this sound reasonable for close to my target of 400 bhp? (I only want to buy the injectors once!)
Initial thoughts are that "green" (or grey?? I forget the sizes) Cosworth injectors may do the job. IIRC they're 385 cc/min. Not sure about spray patterns etc though.
No silliness about suppliers, mappers and secrets please - as in other injector threads - I'm really not interested in that.
I would, however, be interested in a discussion of sources of injectors, spray patterns, flow matching and other injector parameters... And of course some part numbers.
I'm running fully sequential injection, so in theory my injectors need to be bigger than most tuned Griffs. I don't want to go back to banked injection as the car is considerably smoother and a touch more responsive now, even with a barely refined map (set up by me
). A ballpark figure for the injectors is 400cc/min @ 3 bar. That should be enough for all my future plans. Does this sound reasonable for close to my target of 400 bhp? (I only want to buy the injectors once!)
Initial thoughts are that "green" (or grey?? I forget the sizes) Cosworth injectors may do the job. IIRC they're 385 cc/min. Not sure about spray patterns etc though.
No silliness about suppliers, mappers and secrets please - as in other injector threads - I'm really not interested in that.
I would, however, be interested in a discussion of sources of injectors, spray patterns, flow matching and other injector parameters... And of course some part numbers.
What sort of duty cycle are you aiming for at full power? I would have thought that even with sequential injection you would go for a long open duration under power and just use the phased injection at lower power for emissions. If you really want to restrict the injector open time to the induction stroke at full power you need a *much* bigger injector.
Happy to run with up to 80% (or so) duty cycle. I'd like to keep phased working as long as possibe for cruising and mild acceleration so I get reasonable economy. Phased injection at full power may be intractable at low RPM, as the required pulse widths would probably be smaller than the opening time making metering difficult. So I'll avoid that!
Basically, I'm after as big a set of injectors as I can get away with to maintain good idle and low speed running! I need to check the smallest pulse width I can get away with in the ECU... I seem to remember this meaning something like 550cc/min would be about the sensible limit. (But then I've just increased costs again for little extra benefit - my modding budget is small and finite!)
Basically, I'm after as big a set of injectors as I can get away with to maintain good idle and low speed running! I need to check the smallest pulse width I can get away with in the ECU... I seem to remember this meaning something like 550cc/min would be about the sensible limit. (But then I've just increased costs again for little extra benefit - my modding budget is small and finite!)
Have a look on here Davidwww.fiveomotorsport.com .They do a wide range of Bosch and Webber by the loks of it.Are you still running out of duration with increased fuel pessure then?If so then what mods have you done?After your last mail,i'm wondering what the 
youve got under the bonnet 
youve got under the bonnet I think the advise is normally to run the smallest injectors you can get away with, to give you the best atomisation and accuracy at low power.
400 bhp is 50 bhp per injector which implies an average flow rate of around 250cc/min per injector. If you assume a maximum 90% duty cycle at full power this gives a peak injector flow rate of around 280 cc/min. If your engine needs to run unusually rich at peak power then you might want to give yourself an extra margin on the flow rates.
400 bhp is 50 bhp per injector which implies an average flow rate of around 250cc/min per injector. If you assume a maximum 90% duty cycle at full power this gives a peak injector flow rate of around 280 cc/min. If your engine needs to run unusually rich at peak power then you might want to give yourself an extra margin on the flow rates.
Not increased the fuel pressure yet. I'm a bit concerned about doing this to my ancient Lucas injectors as they'll probably never close fully again after running at high pressure I'm sure they're on their last legs as I've got them configured as 185ccs in the ECU and the EGO correction factor from the widebands is always positive - more so than I'd expect - the VE cells in the map around the idle point look reasonable. I'm assuming the injector flow has dropped off.
I suppose I should pull them out and get them cleaned and tested, but it seems like throwing good money after bad given the future plans.
TBH it's not currently a big problem, but it will be very soon when the next load of mods get put on.
The 550cc is an ECU limit really - I wouldn't trust it to control the idle with much bigger injectors. The car may turn in to a monster, but it still needs to have good manners in town!
Ideally, I'd like good low speed operation and to get all the fuel in quickly at the top end. Just to see what it's like really - the cost of bigger injectors vs smaller ones is not much in the grand scheme of things... so I may as well have the added freedom of moving the inj pulses around in the cycle if I feel like it... (Yes, the ECU will support this.)
As for mods - not many yet, but I'm working on them slowly. I'm aiming for a reliable 350 bhp from phase 1 (good management system and a bit of work on the ancilliaries - shouldn't be too bad given it's supposed to be 340 anyway...
) and will aim for 400 from phase 2 - a few more serious things with the engine - cams, heads and the like. So I'd like the new injectors to be compatible.
Thanks for the 5-o pointer. Much appreciated.
>> Edited by dnb on Tuesday 31st January 18:12
I'm sure they're on their last legs as I've got them configured as 185ccs in the ECU and the EGO correction factor from the widebands is always positive - more so than I'd expect - the VE cells in the map around the idle point look reasonable. I'm assuming the injector flow has dropped off. I suppose I should pull them out and get them cleaned and tested, but it seems like throwing good money after bad given the future plans.
TBH it's not currently a big problem, but it will be very soon when the next load of mods get put on.
The 550cc is an ECU limit really - I wouldn't trust it to control the idle with much bigger injectors. The car may turn in to a monster, but it still needs to have good manners in town!
Ideally, I'd like good low speed operation and to get all the fuel in quickly at the top end. Just to see what it's like really - the cost of bigger injectors vs smaller ones is not much in the grand scheme of things... so I may as well have the added freedom of moving the inj pulses around in the cycle if I feel like it... (Yes, the ECU will support this.)
As for mods - not many yet, but I'm working on them slowly. I'm aiming for a reliable 350 bhp from phase 1 (good management system and a bit of work on the ancilliaries - shouldn't be too bad given it's supposed to be 340 anyway...
) and will aim for 400 from phase 2 - a few more serious things with the engine - cams, heads and the like. So I'd like the new injectors to be compatible. Thanks for the 5-o pointer. Much appreciated.
>> Edited by dnb on Tuesday 31st January 18:12
I honestly think i'd be inclined to crimp the regulator a little and get the pressure up to 3bar,this is what's been done to mine and it works very well and reliably.You'll need the increased pressure with the new injectors anyway usually,so what have you got to lose?
>> Edited by mongoose on Tuesday 31st January 19:20
>> Edited by mongoose on Tuesday 31st January 19:20
Right - found a couple of possibly suitable sets...
Am I right in thinking it's either EV1 or EV6 style injectors that physically fit?
Bosch 0280 150 558 - a 440cc injector in fetching light green.
* Anyone know what the spray pattern is? (I think wide would be good for the Griff)
* Anything about open/close times?
* It's apparently commonly used in tuning Fords and used in VW/Audi 1.8T applications.
Bosch 0 280 155 830 - 415cc @ 4 bar - new type (all plastic) injector from newish Volvos (T5 etc)
* Anyone care to guess at spray pattern?
* Anything about open/close times?
* It's a little small for what I'm aiming for, but I could live with it.
Or there's this one that I'm told meets my spray pattern requirements:
[url]www.034motorsport.com/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=100[/url]
440cc/min, comes in flow matched sets. I could have the whole here lot for less than £300.
Any other suggestions? I've rummaged around on the internet enough to last me a month tonight
Am I right in thinking it's either EV1 or EV6 style injectors that physically fit?
Bosch 0280 150 558 - a 440cc injector in fetching light green.
* Anyone know what the spray pattern is? (I think wide would be good for the Griff)
* Anything about open/close times?
* It's apparently commonly used in tuning Fords and used in VW/Audi 1.8T applications.
Bosch 0 280 155 830 - 415cc @ 4 bar - new type (all plastic) injector from newish Volvos (T5 etc)
* Anyone care to guess at spray pattern?
* Anything about open/close times?
* It's a little small for what I'm aiming for, but I could live with it.
Or there's this one that I'm told meets my spray pattern requirements:
[url]www.034motorsport.com/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=100[/url]
440cc/min, comes in flow matched sets. I could have the whole here lot for less than £300.
Any other suggestions? I've rummaged around on the internet enough to last me a month tonight
Fairly easy to fit if you're prepared to fiddle a bit... Remember it's an open source design and all the code is freely available for tinkering with.
There's a thread about my experiences in Major Mods (a little out of date now) and a website here: [url]www.vems.hu[/url]
There's a thread about my experiences in Major Mods (a little out of date now) and a website here: [url]www.vems.hu[/url]
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