Evolution/aliens?
Discussion
Firstly, this isn't a loaded question or me wanting to have a go/score points, it is a genuine question.
Does a belief in evolution lead on logically to a belief in aliens? As there are other planets in the universe on which the conditions for life in various forms to exist are favourable isn't it wrong to assume that this only occured here? I've always enjoyed Arthur C Clarke's speculations as to what life would be like in for instance the upper reaches of the Jovian atmosphere.
Does a belief in evolution lead on logically to a belief in aliens? As there are other planets in the universe on which the conditions for life in various forms to exist are favourable isn't it wrong to assume that this only occured here? I've always enjoyed Arthur C Clarke's speculations as to what life would be like in for instance the upper reaches of the Jovian atmosphere.
There are so many stars out there, that simply put life does exist elsewhere...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation for some reading up on the maths of it all
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation for some reading up on the maths of it all
Not arrogant, just short-sighted/ignorant.
Given the number of suns and planets, and working through a few 'if only 1 in a 1,000' satges, youre left with the conclusion that there probably IS life elsewhere.
Although our attempts to meet it are being defeated by politcal atrophy and the urge to donate vast sums to the thrid world.
Given the number of suns and planets, and working through a few 'if only 1 in a 1,000' satges, youre left with the conclusion that there probably IS life elsewhere.
Although our attempts to meet it are being defeated by politcal atrophy and the urge to donate vast sums to the thrid world.
I know of intelligent people who believe in evolution, but not aliens; so no would be the answer to your question. As I explained on another thread, we had an open lecture at Uni where a vote was asked for on who believed in life elsewhere in the Universe - none of the lecturers put their hands up, and I know that they all believe in evolution.
The question still comes down to the probability of life being on other planets.
Personally, I do believe in both evolution and aliens. The Universe is so unimaginably big that there simply must be life elsewhere.
I have my doubts as to whether some people truly realise how big the Universe is. Even our local group of galaxies is so vast I think life is almost certain to occur in thousands of locations within it. In fact, I'd bet money on life being in our galaxy in a few hundred locations.
The question still comes down to the probability of life being on other planets.
Personally, I do believe in both evolution and aliens. The Universe is so unimaginably big that there simply must be life elsewhere.
I have my doubts as to whether some people truly realise how big the Universe is. Even our local group of galaxies is so vast I think life is almost certain to occur in thousands of locations within it. In fact, I'd bet money on life being in our galaxy in a few hundred locations.
RobM77 said:
I know of intelligent people who believe in evolution, but not aliens; so no would be the answer to your question. As I explained on another thread, we had an open lecture at Uni where a vote was asked for on who believed in life elsewhere in the Universe - none of the lecturers put their hands up, and I know that they all believe in evolution.
The question still comes down to the probability of life being on other planets.
Personally, I do believe in both evolution and aliens. The Universe is so unimaginably big that there simply must be life elsewhere.
I have my doubts as to whether some people truly realise how big the Universe is. Even our local group of galaxies is so vast I think life is almost certain to occur in thousands of locations within it. In fact, I'd bet money on life being in our galaxy in a few hundred locations.
Well, this is what prompted my question as I've come across people like this and it annoys me, because I do think that a belief in evolution must also require a belief in aliens. I'd like to know why someone wouldn't beyond the "aliens are just daft scifi" argument.
Yugguy said:
Does a belief in evolution lead on logically to a belief in aliens?
Err - do we think a knowledge of the biological processes that occour on this planet are applicable else where in the universe? No idea. No proof of any life outside of earth so seems pointless conjecture really...
Yugguy said:
As there are other planets in the universe on which the conditions for life in various forms to exist are favourable
Well - tell us where they all are ang go claim your nobel prize - only planets discovered so far are gas giants like jupiter - unlikely to sustain any form of life that we know about...
Yugguy said:
isn't it wrong to assume that this only occured here? I've always enjoyed Arthur C Clarke's speculations as to what life would be like in for instance the upper reaches of the Jovian atmosphere.
Hmmm - nice ideas - but given scientific experiment and our actual scientific knowledge of how things work - all of this is fantasy I'm afraid.
So - I'd say in conclusion, that a good understanding of the scientific method, newton, einstein, darwin et al simly tells us that by experiment and observation, our solar system is the only one we know about with rocky planets, and that only one of those supports life.
There is no evidence for life anywhere else of any kind - and there is no evidence to show that the evolutionary processes that take place on earth (Replication of DNA from generation to generation) would even be present in an organism from outside this planet.
Of course using statistics it's perfectly easy to say, we're here and the chanses of that are infinitely small, and the universe in infinitely big therefore there must be an infinity of other civilisations out there.
Given that from a comsmological point of view that it now seems that the universe is a big closed system - I don't think that argument holds a lot of water - no more infinities to hide in....
>> Edited by mr_tony on Friday 3rd February 11:11
Yugguy said:
Well, this is what prompted my question as I've come across people like this and it annoys me, because I do think that a belief in evolution must also require a belief in aliens. I'd like to know why someone wouldn't beyond the "aliens are just daft scifi" argument.
Evolution says absolutely nothing about the origin of life, merely about how it changes afterwards, therefore it is perfectly possible to hold evolution to be true and yet be of the belief that biogenesis is extremely unlikely. I personally think that life elsewhere in the universe is pretty nearly a certainty, but until I see some evidence I'm forced to retain an open mind.
Just because we have yet to find a planet that could sustain our type of life form, doesn't mean that there are not lifeforms that can survive/thrive/evolve within the atmospheres etc on other planets.
It's life Jim, but not as we know it.
Anyway, if life on Earth is all there is, then it's a pretty dismal state of affairs really!
It's life Jim, but not as we know it.
Anyway, if life on Earth is all there is, then it's a pretty dismal state of affairs really!
I think the phrase 'life on other planets' might be better than 'aliens' which implies Mekon type monsters emerging from flying saucers.
Some of the variables to consider are:
Number of stars in the universe.
Number of those stars which have planets.
Number of those planets which are a suitable distance from their sun to have an acceptable surface temperature.
Number of those planets which have the necessary raw materials for life.
Number of those planets on which life has evolved (algae/bacteria count as life).
That's a simplification but you get the idea.
From Google: 'The universe is full of stars, arranged in enormous groups called galaxies. Our Sun is one star among 100 billion in the Milky Way Galaxy. And there are about 100 billion galaxies in the universe, each with a comparable number of stars. With some simple math, we can figure out the total number of stars in the universe:
(100 billion stars/galaxy) x (100 billion galaxies) = (100 x 10^9) x (100 x 10^9) = 10^22 stars
The number of stars in the universe is more than the number of grains of sand on all the beaches of the entire Earth!'
Start with 10^22 and even if you divide by 1,000 at each step, you still have 10^10 left on it when you get to the bottom. I did a presentation on this subject 20 years ago as an undergraduate!
Some of the variables to consider are:
Number of stars in the universe.
Number of those stars which have planets.
Number of those planets which are a suitable distance from their sun to have an acceptable surface temperature.
Number of those planets which have the necessary raw materials for life.
Number of those planets on which life has evolved (algae/bacteria count as life).
That's a simplification but you get the idea.
From Google: 'The universe is full of stars, arranged in enormous groups called galaxies. Our Sun is one star among 100 billion in the Milky Way Galaxy. And there are about 100 billion galaxies in the universe, each with a comparable number of stars. With some simple math, we can figure out the total number of stars in the universe:
(100 billion stars/galaxy) x (100 billion galaxies) = (100 x 10^9) x (100 x 10^9) = 10^22 stars
The number of stars in the universe is more than the number of grains of sand on all the beaches of the entire Earth!'
Start with 10^22 and even if you divide by 1,000 at each step, you still have 10^10 left on it when you get to the bottom. I did a presentation on this subject 20 years ago as an undergraduate!
Who's to say some humies already didn't bugger off to space several tens of thousands of years ago from previous advanced civilisations? If they did are they aliens or humans?
Just wondering how we classify alien in that case???
Dave
>> Edited by Mr Whippy on Friday 3rd February 11:20
Just wondering how we classify alien in that case???
Dave
>> Edited by Mr Whippy on Friday 3rd February 11:20
ddd said:
Well - tell us where they all are ang go claim your nobel prize - only planets discovered so far are gas giants like jupiter - unlikely to sustain any form of life that we know about...
I could be wrong but I thought that studying the 'wobble' of certain stars had shown the existence of planets at the right distance from the sun for carbon-based life conditions to exist.
Taking the premise that evolution is true, it uses chemical processes that are common to the entire universe, just as any other physical law and are the same on Alpha Centauri as they are here. So logic dictates that evolution could happen in any favourable conditions wherever they may be. The FORM that life would take is the unknown, although doesn't comparitive evolution say that there's a 'best' way for a physical aspect to be, so a sentient alien may well turn out to be a biped with a relatively big cranium, just like us.
>> Edited by Yugguy on Friday 3rd February 11:19
Monty python said:
Whenever life gets you down, Mrs. Brown,
And things seem hard or tough,
And people are stupid, obnoxious or daft,
And you feel that you've had quite eno-o-o-o-o-ough...
Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the "Milky Way".
Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.
We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.
We go 'round every two hundred million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.
(Animated calliope interlude)
The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth
If you follow the logic that computers are making society more insular then it follows that evolution will target the senses which are used in computing such as fingers and eyes.
It also follows that the faculties we use less will be removed over time so as we chat online we have less and less need for a large mouth. Frontal brain activity remains important so that gets bigger.
Large forehead and eyes, long fingers and a small mouth.
No not Cherie Blair, your classic Schwah alien...
It also follows that the faculties we use less will be removed over time so as we chat online we have less and less need for a large mouth. Frontal brain activity remains important so that gets bigger.
Large forehead and eyes, long fingers and a small mouth.
No not Cherie Blair, your classic Schwah alien...
Mr Whippy said:
Who's to say some humies already didn't bugger off to space several tens of thousands of years ago? If they did are they aliens or humans?
Just wondering how we classify alien in that case???
Dave
I always wondered if a species dinosaur didn't evolve into a highly intelligent life form/society whose own 'industrial revolution' caused the layer of iridium in the earths crust that we have blamed on a meteor impact, they also killed all the other dinosaurs in much the way that we are making many species extinct today. Having developed a highly advanced society, but buggering up the planet in the process they decided to make the earth a 'nature reserve' and leave the planet to recover. In the meantime we have evolved. Perhaps they pop back occaisionally to monitor the planets healing process accounting for UFO sitings and the reptilian appearance of aliens.
Einion Yrth said:
Well, this is what prompted my question as I've come across people like this and it annoys me, because I do think that a belief in evolution must also require a belief in aliens. I'd like to know why someone wouldn't beyond the "aliens are just daft scifi" argument.
Evolution says absolutely nothing about the origin of life, merely about how it changes afterwards, therefore it is perfectly possible to hold evolution to be true and yet be of the belief that biogenesis is extremely unlikely. I personally think that life elsewhere in the universe is pretty nearly a certainty, but until I see some evidence I'm forced to retain an open mind.
Life existing on other planets would be entirely consistent with my view on the origins of life on this planet.
Plotloss said:
If you follow the logic that computers are making society more insular then it follows that evolution will target the senses which are used in computing such as fingers and eyes.
It also follows that the faculties we use less will be removed over time so as we chat online we have less and less need for a large mouth. Frontal brain activity remains important so that gets bigger.
Normally you'd be right. But for evolution to succeed it has to be connected to breeding.
mr_tony said:
[quote=Yugguy]
As there are other planets in the universe on which the conditions for life in various forms to exist are favourable
Well - tell us where they all are ang go claim your nobel prize - only planets discovered so far are gas giants like jupiter - unlikely to sustain any form of life that we know about...
It's fair to add that a likely reason the only planets discovered so far outside the solar system are gas giants is because they are so far away that up to now it's only these large planets we can detect, by means of the effect of their mass on the suns they orbit.
Wasn't some sort of 'brown dwarf' discovered just the other week which is a candidate for being a rocky planet? I think the new method is something to do with spotting something just as it comes out of eclipse from a nearer star, or summat
In a big universe, many things are possible. Given the difficulty evolutionary biologists have in explaining how something as complicated as a self replicating organism could have arisen from the primordial soup here on earth, it's even possible that replicators arrived here from elsewhere though this of course begs the question of how they evolved elsewhere, and how they got here. However, Even Richard Dawkins the arch materialist evolutionary biologist admits we have no idea how replicators evolved.
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