Alfa engine's n boxes? (V6 esp)
Discussion
Looking for opinions on Alfa V6 engine and boxes, strength, power - any one year/type better than any other? Needs to be an in-line config so any suggestions as to which model would help as well.
Basically a mate I've been discussing my scratch build with wants a similar bit of fun and has a hankering for the sound made by an Alfa 3.2 V6. Personally I have little experience of Alfa's other than sweeping rust up from under my brothers 155 every time it started, but as he's a PC-a-phobe I said I'd post and ask on his behalf!
Any thoughts at all helpful, price of parts, running costs etc. I suggested the Audi unit and box as I had so many recommendations for it!
Thanks for any thoughts
Basically a mate I've been discussing my scratch build with wants a similar bit of fun and has a hankering for the sound made by an Alfa 3.2 V6. Personally I have little experience of Alfa's other than sweeping rust up from under my brothers 155 every time it started, but as he's a PC-a-phobe I said I'd post and ask on his behalf!
Any thoughts at all helpful, price of parts, running costs etc. I suggested the Audi unit and box as I had so many recommendations for it!
Thanks for any thoughts
I'd say just the opposite! (Just to be awkward!) The 12 valve engines are extremely reliable and robust (I'm on my third V6 Alfa which currently has 220,000 miles on it!) The 12 valvers have (obviously) the much simpler timing belt arrangement which makes them a bit easier to package (narrower at the top). If you get a "Cloverleaf" version, you won't be far off the power of the 24 valve and they sound (to my mind) nicer and have a bit more low down "grunt". The 24 valve engines rev higher and get their extra power that way. Either way, you can't really go wrong with any Alfa V6. If you want to do your own adapter plate to an in-line box, look for an old 164. There's nearly always someone breaking one on Ebay. If you want to stick with the Alfa drivetrain, I think thye did a rear-drive GVT with the V6 engine but obviously, a bit harder to come by.
thanks for the replies guys, I'll pass the info on. I think if it's going to be down to a seperate make box he'll probably be looking at the renault unit, as there are so many bits n pieces commercially available.
He's actually got me thinking now about my audi unit... those alfa's do make a nice noise, and as pointed out cheap to the rediculous... and there are plenty lying around in scrappy's I could go measuring! I could even go for a transverse maybe, get a bit more room inside...
He's actually got me thinking now about my audi unit... those alfa's do make a nice noise, and as pointed out cheap to the rediculous... and there are plenty lying around in scrappy's I could go measuring! I could even go for a transverse maybe, get a bit more room inside...
Now you've gone and done it.....
My views are worth what you pay for them.....
Early 24V motors have a really suspect cambelt wrap arrangement and if you're not careful, are prone to slippage with expensive consequences. Later ones with the oil pump driven by the nose of the crank are much better. Tensioners are easy to break when setting them up if you are a muppet. Problem is, it's not obvious until later when the belt jumps.....
12V motors IMO have a design flaw in the lubrication of the exhaust lobes on the cams. Every motor I've looked at so far has some level of damage to the lobes & followers. I think this is why they have a reputation as a rattley engine. 12V cambelt tensioners leak oil. A service kit is available but the real problem is that the bearings are not. Mods kits can be had to convert to later type tensioners.
All of them are very touchy about lubrication and there are an awful lot of engines about with blown bottom-ends.
You could easily argue that the problems above don't happen with proper use and servicing and it would be hard to prove or disprove, but do consider you'll likely be buying a used motor with totally unknown provenance. A minimum would be to drop the sump and replace the shells. Crank cannot be ground so it it's scored, it's scrap. Shells are sized by colour code (which is often hard to make out).
FWIW, I'm putting a 12V 164 motor in my CAE Corse at the moment and have another one in bits ready to rebuild when time/funds allow so I can pop a blower onto it.
Comments re the relative sizes already covered. 24v is heavier.
Alfa 75 also had basically the same 12v motor but a longitudinal install with transaxle at the back.
I personally know of 2 12v motors that have been turbocharged. One made in excess of 400bhp/400ftlb (before the car caught light and burned to the ground) the other is currently making 350/350. Both were standard other than low compression pistons and management to suit of course. Suggests the bottom end is strong when properly lubricated! By coincidence, I have the crank, rods, & shells out of the burned out car and they look almost like new. This car did quite a lot of hard work.
If anyone is interested, I'll be putting an Emerald M3DK3 ECU on mine pretty soon after I've finished the basic installation and removing the moving flap air flow meter. There has been lots of talk about how much power this will be worth so hopefully I can finally get an answer as I'll be able to do a before/after power run.
On a decent exhaust they sound 'kin fantastic. They are very smooth and rev sweetly.
12v motor is more or less a 2' cube plus bits like alternator sticking out.
My views are worth what you pay for them.....
Early 24V motors have a really suspect cambelt wrap arrangement and if you're not careful, are prone to slippage with expensive consequences. Later ones with the oil pump driven by the nose of the crank are much better. Tensioners are easy to break when setting them up if you are a muppet. Problem is, it's not obvious until later when the belt jumps.....
12V motors IMO have a design flaw in the lubrication of the exhaust lobes on the cams. Every motor I've looked at so far has some level of damage to the lobes & followers. I think this is why they have a reputation as a rattley engine. 12V cambelt tensioners leak oil. A service kit is available but the real problem is that the bearings are not. Mods kits can be had to convert to later type tensioners.
All of them are very touchy about lubrication and there are an awful lot of engines about with blown bottom-ends.
You could easily argue that the problems above don't happen with proper use and servicing and it would be hard to prove or disprove, but do consider you'll likely be buying a used motor with totally unknown provenance. A minimum would be to drop the sump and replace the shells. Crank cannot be ground so it it's scored, it's scrap. Shells are sized by colour code (which is often hard to make out).
FWIW, I'm putting a 12V 164 motor in my CAE Corse at the moment and have another one in bits ready to rebuild when time/funds allow so I can pop a blower onto it.
Comments re the relative sizes already covered. 24v is heavier.
Alfa 75 also had basically the same 12v motor but a longitudinal install with transaxle at the back.
I personally know of 2 12v motors that have been turbocharged. One made in excess of 400bhp/400ftlb (before the car caught light and burned to the ground) the other is currently making 350/350. Both were standard other than low compression pistons and management to suit of course. Suggests the bottom end is strong when properly lubricated! By coincidence, I have the crank, rods, & shells out of the burned out car and they look almost like new. This car did quite a lot of hard work.
If anyone is interested, I'll be putting an Emerald M3DK3 ECU on mine pretty soon after I've finished the basic installation and removing the moving flap air flow meter. There has been lots of talk about how much power this will be worth so hopefully I can finally get an answer as I'll be able to do a before/after power run.
On a decent exhaust they sound 'kin fantastic. They are very smooth and rev sweetly.
12v motor is more or less a 2' cube plus bits like alternator sticking out.
Excellent info there, much appreciated. Any engine he uses would be subjected to a total rebuild (probably by me, so the muppet factor could come into play!) so this is printed off ready to hand to him! I'll highlight and bolden the part about taking proper care of the engine, he does like to leave the oil in it's can till the engine screams for it
Can I ask what 'box you are using in your stratos, and if you know of any issues with any of the alfa boxes in particular? I'd like to do a stratos one day - I think my mate would probably like one as well but I'm not going to suggest it or I'll have another kit on my hands.....
Can I ask what 'box you are using in your stratos, and if you know of any issues with any of the alfa boxes in particular? I'd like to do a stratos one day - I think my mate would probably like one as well but I'm not going to suggest it or I'll have another kit on my hands.....
Hope all that was some help.
I'll be using the box that was in the donor 164 (transverse setup in both cars so it's simple).
The early 164 boxes can suffer with input shaft bearing failure. Not in itself a big deal nor expensive to put right...as long as you catch it before the bearing disintegrates and eats the casing of the box and/or the input shaft. Later boxes (from the 24V 164s and other cars in the family) have a much better bearing in this position and don't really have any particular weaknesses AFAIK. Early and late boxes are interchangeable on the V6 family, most significant change was from a 'push' clutch release to a 'pull' type. The parts are all pretty interchangeable as well so it's not a problem. Gear shift linkage on the 164 family boxes is really easy to convert from front engine to mid engine, which is nice.
Quite a range of ratios & diffs out there as well. Check out the stratosupsersite forum for an extensive reply on that!
The waterpump on the V6 is fine...but the general view is to change it when you change the cambelt. Reason for this is that you have to remove the belt to get the pump off, and you don't want to have to change the belt 'cos the pump went (if you see what I mean). I suppose for low mileage use in a kit, you could happily let the pump go for two belt changes, assuming you change belt on age rather than miles covered.
Engine gaskets can be very expensive. Check e-bay etc. for the odd bargain. The rear main cap has some 'cigarette' type oil seals that push down the sides and if they aren't done right, can leak a bit. No big deal, just need to be careful.
Cam timing on the 12v is really easy. 24v a bit more involved and really needs some special tools. Never worked on a 24V myself (other than to strip bits off dead ones). Done a bit on 12v motors but I'm no expert, just got my own views based on too many years mucking about with cars.
Have a nose here www.stratossupersite.com/photos/index.php for a couple of pictures of progress on my conversion if you are interested. The Alfa V6 installation is very common in these kits. I'm certainly not doing anything new or different (apart from my daft idea for a blower...and that's not unique, I just might be the first to do it on an Alfa V6 in one of these kits unless one of the other guys beats me to it).
I'll be using the box that was in the donor 164 (transverse setup in both cars so it's simple).
The early 164 boxes can suffer with input shaft bearing failure. Not in itself a big deal nor expensive to put right...as long as you catch it before the bearing disintegrates and eats the casing of the box and/or the input shaft. Later boxes (from the 24V 164s and other cars in the family) have a much better bearing in this position and don't really have any particular weaknesses AFAIK. Early and late boxes are interchangeable on the V6 family, most significant change was from a 'push' clutch release to a 'pull' type. The parts are all pretty interchangeable as well so it's not a problem. Gear shift linkage on the 164 family boxes is really easy to convert from front engine to mid engine, which is nice.
Quite a range of ratios & diffs out there as well. Check out the stratosupsersite forum for an extensive reply on that!
The waterpump on the V6 is fine...but the general view is to change it when you change the cambelt. Reason for this is that you have to remove the belt to get the pump off, and you don't want to have to change the belt 'cos the pump went (if you see what I mean). I suppose for low mileage use in a kit, you could happily let the pump go for two belt changes, assuming you change belt on age rather than miles covered.
Engine gaskets can be very expensive. Check e-bay etc. for the odd bargain. The rear main cap has some 'cigarette' type oil seals that push down the sides and if they aren't done right, can leak a bit. No big deal, just need to be careful.
Cam timing on the 12v is really easy. 24v a bit more involved and really needs some special tools. Never worked on a 24V myself (other than to strip bits off dead ones). Done a bit on 12v motors but I'm no expert, just got my own views based on too many years mucking about with cars.
Have a nose here www.stratossupersite.com/photos/index.php for a couple of pictures of progress on my conversion if you are interested. The Alfa V6 installation is very common in these kits. I'm certainly not doing anything new or different (apart from my daft idea for a blower...and that's not unique, I just might be the first to do it on an Alfa V6 in one of these kits unless one of the other guys beats me to it).
Going through all the photo's at the moment, lots of good info to be got from there.Gassing Station | Kit Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff