Lincolnshire Roads
Discussion
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/li
Lincolnshire, where six people have died in a crash between two lorries and a minibus, has one of the worst records for road deaths in the UK.
In 2005, 69 people were killed in crashes on the county's roads, while in 2003 the death toll was more than 100.
Tuesday's incident is not the first multiple death collision this year - three people died when their car was crushed between two lorries last month.
Police said the county's low amount of dual carriageways was a factor.
It is believed the crash on Tuesday, on the A52 near Grantham, happened when a minibus was overtaking an oil tanker and a lorry in the same manoeuvre and collided head on with another HGV travelling in the opposite direction.
'Scene of carnage'
Ch Supt Dave Wheeler said: "I've got to say from my perspective, with the number of years in Lincolnshire Police, this is probably the worst traffic collision scene that I have ever attended.
DEATHS ON LINCS ROADS
2005 - 69 deaths
2004 - 77 deaths
2003 - 104 deaths
2002 - 93 deaths
Source: Lincolnshire Road Safety Partnership
"It's a very difficult scene as you can imagine, a scene of carnage."
Dick Holmes, of Lincolnshire Police, said the nature of the county's roads arguably made crashes more likely than in other parts of the country.
He said: "One of the main things that seems to be a problem is that we have no motorways and very few miles of dual carriageway, that's part of the reason.
"Statistically dual carriageways and motorways are safer roads to travel on - following that logic, logic dictates if there were more dual carriageways there would be fewer serious collisions.
"You can't say that for certain, but all the indications elsewhere in the country suggest that.
A couple and their son, 11, died in a crash on the A17 in January
"Also, the roads of Lincolnshire are not as busy as some - if you are stuck in traffic on the M25 you are not going to die, but there are still roads in Lincolnshire where you can get up to quite a high speed.
"Some people don't drive according to their skills and the conditions."
Mr Holmes said a series of initiatives from the police and the Lincolnshire Road Safety Partnership had made people realise the dangers of irresponsible driving and had cut the number of deaths from the high of 104 during 2003.
Mary Williams, chief executive of national road safety charity Brake, said: "Crashes caused when overtaking on Britain's fast, rural A-roads are shockingly common, yet frequently result in multiple fatalities due to the speed of impact.
"Yet there is no government advertising campaign about the dangers of overtaking, despite the fact that many of our roads are bendy, narrow, and often wet, with a limit of 60mph, only 10mph slower than a motorway."
latest collision report
>> Edited by Flat in Fifth on Tuesday 14th February 15:35
Lincolnshire, where six people have died in a crash between two lorries and a minibus, has one of the worst records for road deaths in the UK.
In 2005, 69 people were killed in crashes on the county's roads, while in 2003 the death toll was more than 100.
Tuesday's incident is not the first multiple death collision this year - three people died when their car was crushed between two lorries last month.
Police said the county's low amount of dual carriageways was a factor.
It is believed the crash on Tuesday, on the A52 near Grantham, happened when a minibus was overtaking an oil tanker and a lorry in the same manoeuvre and collided head on with another HGV travelling in the opposite direction.
'Scene of carnage'
Ch Supt Dave Wheeler said: "I've got to say from my perspective, with the number of years in Lincolnshire Police, this is probably the worst traffic collision scene that I have ever attended.
DEATHS ON LINCS ROADS
2005 - 69 deaths
2004 - 77 deaths
2003 - 104 deaths
2002 - 93 deaths
Source: Lincolnshire Road Safety Partnership
"It's a very difficult scene as you can imagine, a scene of carnage."
Dick Holmes, of Lincolnshire Police, said the nature of the county's roads arguably made crashes more likely than in other parts of the country.
He said: "One of the main things that seems to be a problem is that we have no motorways and very few miles of dual carriageway, that's part of the reason.
"Statistically dual carriageways and motorways are safer roads to travel on - following that logic, logic dictates if there were more dual carriageways there would be fewer serious collisions.
"You can't say that for certain, but all the indications elsewhere in the country suggest that.
A couple and their son, 11, died in a crash on the A17 in January
"Also, the roads of Lincolnshire are not as busy as some - if you are stuck in traffic on the M25 you are not going to die, but there are still roads in Lincolnshire where you can get up to quite a high speed.
"Some people don't drive according to their skills and the conditions."
Mr Holmes said a series of initiatives from the police and the Lincolnshire Road Safety Partnership had made people realise the dangers of irresponsible driving and had cut the number of deaths from the high of 104 during 2003.
Mary Williams, chief executive of national road safety charity Brake, said: "Crashes caused when overtaking on Britain's fast, rural A-roads are shockingly common, yet frequently result in multiple fatalities due to the speed of impact.
"Yet there is no government advertising campaign about the dangers of overtaking, despite the fact that many of our roads are bendy, narrow, and often wet, with a limit of 60mph, only 10mph slower than a motorway."
latest collision report
>> Edited by Flat in Fifth on Tuesday 14th February 15:35
I've just read the same BBC report. Mrs Brake has a wonderful quote, but sadly it seems she has the wrong end of the stick once again. It's not the dangers of overtaking that should be publicised. It's the skills and approach needed to overtake safely.
The main problem is that people don't get enough practice when they're stuck on motorways and dual carriageways all day. We need driving schools to cover safe overtaking, and perhaps include it in the driving test.
Perhaps instead we'll have the Finnish (?) approach -- barriers down the middle of all A-roads, just in case.
The main problem is that people don't get enough practice when they're stuck on motorways and dual carriageways all day. We need driving schools to cover safe overtaking, and perhaps include it in the driving test.
Perhaps instead we'll have the Finnish (?) approach -- barriers down the middle of all A-roads, just in case.
Lincolnshire has some of the best driving roads in the UK, Also only has one motorway (M18 and thats only in 15-20 odd miles in the north west of the county) and like 2 dual carriageways .. .. .. .. ..
you try getting to skegness, a fairly popular lincolnshire resort, takes friggin ages around wide country lanes asking for you to overtake the 40mph driving OAP in front .. .. ..
strangley the scameras here seem to all be in the wrong places, I dont know of one by a school as an example, all are either on the 2 dual carriageways or on country lanes in the middle of nowhere, the A15 for example.
lincoln people are a little bit backwards, compared to the rest of the country (ive moved around in my time) but thats what gives lincoln it character, shame the police are trying to be more backwards here .. .. .. .. fight fire with fire? the traffic police in lincs need to sort out their priorities, scameras in pointless places and fines pay their bils now, saftey cameras and fines for geniune stupid driving and cameras in genuinely worthwhile places save lives.
the bottom line here is, Lincoln people are a bit thick, I doubt the local police here will change untill its absolutly 100% noticed by somone else outside and then they will do somthing... but only cos somone else pointed it out.
I got a 500 pound fine for saftley overtaking a car in a perfectly safe place following it for 15 miles at 40MPH on a national speed limit road, the numbers 911 where used 7 times when I fought it in court .. .. .. .. .. but im not bitter .. .. ..
you try getting to skegness, a fairly popular lincolnshire resort, takes friggin ages around wide country lanes asking for you to overtake the 40mph driving OAP in front .. .. ..
strangley the scameras here seem to all be in the wrong places, I dont know of one by a school as an example, all are either on the 2 dual carriageways or on country lanes in the middle of nowhere, the A15 for example.
lincoln people are a little bit backwards, compared to the rest of the country (ive moved around in my time) but thats what gives lincoln it character, shame the police are trying to be more backwards here .. .. .. .. fight fire with fire? the traffic police in lincs need to sort out their priorities, scameras in pointless places and fines pay their bils now, saftey cameras and fines for geniune stupid driving and cameras in genuinely worthwhile places save lives.
the bottom line here is, Lincoln people are a bit thick, I doubt the local police here will change untill its absolutly 100% noticed by somone else outside and then they will do somthing... but only cos somone else pointed it out.
I got a 500 pound fine for saftley overtaking a car in a perfectly safe place following it for 15 miles at 40MPH on a national speed limit road, the numbers 911 where used 7 times when I fought it in court .. .. .. .. .. but im not bitter .. .. ..
i travel back and fore between suffolk and grimsby a fair bit seeing friends, driving up past kings lynn and then up the A16 and A17. a lot of these roads are wide and straight, and long ques of traffic sitting behind a lorry or a slow driver are common place. a lot of people are quite happy to sit in a que of traffic doing 40mph so don't bother to overtake, this makes it a lot harder to overtake, as you have to get past all the cars before you reach the obstruction at the front.
i've seen several crashes where people have overtaken in turn right lanes, and loads of near misses with people nearly having head ons.
perhaps they could have compulsory lay bys for slower vehicles every 10 miles, so they have to pull over to let others past.
i've seen several crashes where people have overtaken in turn right lanes, and loads of near misses with people nearly having head ons.
perhaps they could have compulsory lay bys for slower vehicles every 10 miles, so they have to pull over to let others past.
I agree with the slower lanes idea, the police have one thing spot on here, dual carriageways and the need for more of them, there is not enough people in lincs for motorways (or enough people wanting to visit) but dual carriageways will be full on major routes (A15 A17 A46 to name just 3) tomorrow even if they are dualled.
Well, strangely one of the first things the BBC reporter said was "these roads tend to be narrow and twisty, with a 60mph speed limit" -clearly intimating that speed was to blame. When in fact it appears that the transit driver tried to overtake two articulated lorries at the same time. A stupid thing to do in such a slow vehicle, with obviously insufficient sight lines. My condolences go to all those involved.
DucatiGary said:
I agree with the slower lanes idea, the police have one thing spot on here, dual carriageways and the need for more of them, there is not enough people in lincs for motorways (or enough people wanting to visit) but dual carriageways will be full on major routes (A15 A17 A46 to name just 3) tomorrow even if they are dualled.
I can think of quite a few sections of 2 lane Dual Carriageway in Lincs that have been reduced to a single lane by the painting of white lines, presumably to prevent overtaking and therefore reduce the speeds to that of the slowest common denominator - only going to lead to more frustration and dangerous overtakes.
telecat said:
They have completely missed the main problem in Lincolnshire. The roads are undulating. It's quite possible to see for miles forward only to find a vehicle coming out of a dip straight at you. That is of course if you don't know about the terrain.
Thats what the white lines are for & they do tell you exactly what visibilty is ahead or not, unfortunatley a vast percentage of drivers are inadequately trained to identify this system. I'd go as far to say 40-60%+ of drivers could'nt tell the difference in hazard between a small dot & a long dash.
Its a system in place almost worldwide yet the lack of education about it is letting us down
telecat said:Blame the numpty paint... long and short lines are a thing of the past.
They have completely missed the main problem in Lincolnshire. The roads are undulating. It's quite possible to see for miles forward only to find a vehicle coming out of a dip straight at you. That is of course if you don't know about the terrain.
BliarOut said:
Blame the numpty paint... long and short lines are a thing of the past.
Indeed, if all you see is constant lines made wider by 'hatching' even when it is safe to overtake then you may soon start to ignore them - just like reducing the speed limits below what is reasonable then wondering why most people ignore it.
If you constantly 'cry wolf' don't be surprised when no-one comes to help you when the Wolf finally attacks........
catso said:Precisely... If they don't provide honest information people will make mistakes. Bring back the single white line
Blame the numpty paint... long and short lines are a thing of the past.
Indeed, if all you see is constant lines made wider by 'hatching' even when it is safe to overtake then you may soon start to ignore them - just like reducing the speed limits below what is reasonable then wondering why most people ignore it.
If you constantly 'cry wolf' don't be surprised when no-one comes to help you when the Wolf finally attacks........
catso said:
Blame the numpty paint... long and short lines are a thing of the past.
Indeed, if all you see is constant lines made wider by 'hatching' even when it is safe to overtake then you may soon start to ignore them - just like reducing the speed limits below what is reasonable then wondering why most people ignore it.
If you constantly 'cry wolf' don't be surprised when no-one comes to help you when the Wolf finally attacks........
Exactly. The same is also true when after the limit has been reduced, blindly driving along at the limit with poor observation and awareness or respect ofr the conditions is just as bad.
Flat in Fifth said:
Police said the county's low amount of dual carriageways was a
factor.
...
He said: "One of the main things that seems to be a problem is
that we have no motorways and very few miles of dual carriageway,
that's part of the reason.
"Statistically dual carriageways and motorways are safer roads
to travel on - following that logic, logic dictates if there were
more dual carriageways there would be fewer serious collisions.
Hammer meet nail.
How about the fine folks of Lincolnshire get off their seats
and build some safe roads i.e. dual c/w and mways ?
There are about 100 lives a year to be saved.
I tend to ignore the lines when I drive in Lincolnshire, I will not overtake on solid's but take any others with a pinch of salt. They are unreliable. Watching the Hedgerows, trees and fields is more helpful. Another problem in Lincolnshire, (and My route to Skegness, Kids!!), is that main roads Junction on to Main roads and the route therefore changes. The confusion this causes can result in drivers "panicking" when trying to find where they are!
>> Edited by telecat on Tuesday 14th February 23:13
>> Edited by telecat on Tuesday 14th February 23:13
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