993 Brakes - Upgrade vs Pads/Cooling?
Discussion
I'm trying to get my 993 up to scratch so I can do some trackdays this year. Engine already supercharged so I'm not after more power (yet... 
) but brakes and suspension are my next target.
I will probably be acquiring a set of 2002 Carrera 18" *light* wheels with decent tyres for summer, using the original 17s with winter tyres at the mo.
From previous threads and searches, I appear to have 2 choices re: brakes -
1 - Big red upgrade i.e. Turbo discs and calipers
2 - OEM discs & calipers, but Pagid pads, braided brake hoses and additional cooling using RS-type vents (Design911 sell them) in place of the fog lamps, directing cool air to the brakes
I'm assuming option 2 is much cheaper and will be cheaper going forward consumables-wise - however would it be up to the job?
The car's mainly for fast road fun and not a track slag, so squeaky big-$ hybrid brake systems aren't really what I want. However I know the kit as standard isn't really up to repeated lappery of, say, Brands or (esp) Snetterton, given the supercharger and my inept driving
) but brakes and suspension are my next target. I will probably be acquiring a set of 2002 Carrera 18" *light* wheels with decent tyres for summer, using the original 17s with winter tyres at the mo.
From previous threads and searches, I appear to have 2 choices re: brakes -
1 - Big red upgrade i.e. Turbo discs and calipers
2 - OEM discs & calipers, but Pagid pads, braided brake hoses and additional cooling using RS-type vents (Design911 sell them) in place of the fog lamps, directing cool air to the brakes
I'm assuming option 2 is much cheaper and will be cheaper going forward consumables-wise - however would it be up to the job?
The car's mainly for fast road fun and not a track slag, so squeaky big-$ hybrid brake systems aren't really what I want. However I know the kit as standard isn't really up to repeated lappery of, say, Brands or (esp) Snetterton, given the supercharger and my inept driving
Just my 2 penneth but it sound like you have already decided.
As your bias is road work I would go for Pagid Blues and do the fluid upgrade + hoses. If they get a bit too warm then fit the cooling. (blues don't squeal that much as long as you give em a workout every now and then)
If the trackday bug bites and you start getting serious and they are still not man enough, when they are ready for replacement you can then upgrade to bigger brakes and Pagid yellows. The cooling will already be fitted and hey presto - you have a track slag!
As your bias is road work I would go for Pagid Blues and do the fluid upgrade + hoses. If they get a bit too warm then fit the cooling. (blues don't squeal that much as long as you give em a workout every now and then)
If the trackday bug bites and you start getting serious and they are still not man enough, when they are ready for replacement you can then upgrade to bigger brakes and Pagid yellows. The cooling will already be fitted and hey presto - you have a track slag!
Great advice, thanks - which parts are the correct Pagids for fast road / occasional trackdays then? Pagid Blues - what is the code for these (I know I sound stupid, but the GT3 heroes constantly talk about RS29s etc. so I presume the 993 equivalents have a similar code number) 
Also, I didn't mention fluid, just hoses and pads - which fluid do I need? Are braided hoses (e.g. Goodridge) a waste of time - and can I just get away with Pagid pads, decent fluid, and cooling? Or do I need all 4 i.e. the hoses as well?
Last thing - given the noisy lump of machinery sitting behind me, would it be wise to put braided hoses on the back as well as the front? I understand that 911s actually use their rear brakes, unlike many front-engined cars... if I upgrade pads, hoses and fluid, is it needed all round??? (this sounds stupid on the fluid front, I know, of course a change of fluid will affect the whole braking system - and I'd probably insist on the same pads all round for balance, but are rear braided hoses required?)
Contrary to the first reply, I haven't made up my mind yet - if it makes much more sense and less aggro to upgrade to 993TT braking kit all round then I'll take the advice of those who know (and have learnt the hard way). However, my car currently weighs as much as a standard 2wd 993, and even if I go intercooled will not produce more than 400 bhp. Balanced against this are the stories of the 993RS crew who, with less power and less weight, crack their discs with Big Reds on trackdays. I'd like at least to be able to keep up with a 993RS.... someone want to teach me how to drive fast???
Also, I didn't mention fluid, just hoses and pads - which fluid do I need? Are braided hoses (e.g. Goodridge) a waste of time - and can I just get away with Pagid pads, decent fluid, and cooling? Or do I need all 4 i.e. the hoses as well?
Last thing - given the noisy lump of machinery sitting behind me, would it be wise to put braided hoses on the back as well as the front? I understand that 911s actually use their rear brakes, unlike many front-engined cars... if I upgrade pads, hoses and fluid, is it needed all round??? (this sounds stupid on the fluid front, I know, of course a change of fluid will affect the whole braking system - and I'd probably insist on the same pads all round for balance, but are rear braided hoses required?)
Contrary to the first reply, I haven't made up my mind yet - if it makes much more sense and less aggro to upgrade to 993TT braking kit all round then I'll take the advice of those who know (and have learnt the hard way). However, my car currently weighs as much as a standard 2wd 993, and even if I go intercooled will not produce more than 400 bhp. Balanced against this are the stories of the 993RS crew who, with less power and less weight, crack their discs with Big Reds on trackdays. I'd like at least to be able to keep up with a 993RS.... someone want to teach me how to drive fast???
There is another option. Do nothing. Just change the brake fluid to make sure everything is nice and new. when I raced the 993 for a couple of years I started off with a totally standard set up and it was fine, so not sure why you say standard is not up to the job.
Different pads will potentially control heat and / or give improved pad life but there will almost certainly be an increase in noise on the road.
Porsche brakes are without a doubt the best in the world and designed to go above and eyond the call of duty.
Henry
Different pads will potentially control heat and / or give improved pad life but there will almost certainly be an increase in noise on the road.
Porsche brakes are without a doubt the best in the world and designed to go above and eyond the call of duty.
Henry
Its also worth remembering that a nice fat new pad will cope with heat far better than a worn thin one. If your doing a trackday don't be tempted to think "well, theres not much left there, I'll do a trackday and shag 'em, then renew" as after a few laps you may want new discs as well, as you hear that nasty graunching sound of metal on metal, so familiar from my student days....
Cyberface
RS29's are the yellow pads. Long lasting, very effective and damned expensive. If you've got drilled discs and use the car hard on track then the chances are they will get cracked, even using your standard calipers/pads. However, cracking on a 993, even an RS is quite usual and the discs go on for ages after the cracks start to appear. Not so true of a GT3.
As for fluid try ATE super blue a cheaper and equally effective solution to the Castrol mega expensive stuff.
As for big reds they are an expensive option and will probably give you some extra stopping power, but the standard calipers are, as Henry says, pretty good at doing that anyway. If you do go down that route, keep an eye on ebay cos there's usually some on there.
If you're going to keep up with an RS then you will need to upgrade your suspension(I am told the KW Mantthey set up from JZM is excellent), fit sticky tyres - Cups or Corsas, throw away all unecessary fixtures and fittings from the interior, put the car on a diet and ask Walter Rohl to give you two weeks intensive training around the Ring
Best wishes
RS29's are the yellow pads. Long lasting, very effective and damned expensive. If you've got drilled discs and use the car hard on track then the chances are they will get cracked, even using your standard calipers/pads. However, cracking on a 993, even an RS is quite usual and the discs go on for ages after the cracks start to appear. Not so true of a GT3.
As for fluid try ATE super blue a cheaper and equally effective solution to the Castrol mega expensive stuff.
As for big reds they are an expensive option and will probably give you some extra stopping power, but the standard calipers are, as Henry says, pretty good at doing that anyway. If you do go down that route, keep an eye on ebay cos there's usually some on there.
If you're going to keep up with an RS then you will need to upgrade your suspension(I am told the KW Mantthey set up from JZM is excellent), fit sticky tyres - Cups or Corsas, throw away all unecessary fixtures and fittings from the interior, put the car on a diet and ask Walter Rohl to give you two weeks intensive training around the Ring
Best wishes
The best fluid, in my opinion, is Silkolene Pro Race.
It achieves that hardest pedaal of any fluid I've used, has one of the highest boiling points and is a true 24 month fluid.
Forget all the silicon fluids as these need alcohol flushing of the the brake system internals and then need frequent changing due to hydroscopicity.
It achieves that hardest pedaal of any fluid I've used, has one of the highest boiling points and is a true 24 month fluid.
Forget all the silicon fluids as these need alcohol flushing of the the brake system internals and then need frequent changing due to hydroscopicity.
Raven, I use silicone fluid in a classic car as I was told it would not absorb moisture. Not had any probs so far.
Cyber, I think it makes sense to fit racing blue or SRF. Leave the brakes standard until you know how to drive the car on track.
Just because you have more bhp than a 993RS, don't feel bad if a well driven one is getting away....a 993 RS is not really about power....
It sounds like you have a fun journey of learning to drive a 911 on track ahead of you...take your time and you will learn more after each track day.
Cyber, I think it makes sense to fit racing blue or SRF. Leave the brakes standard until you know how to drive the car on track.
Just because you have more bhp than a 993RS, don't feel bad if a well driven one is getting away....a 993 RS is not really about power....
It sounds like you have a fun journey of learning to drive a 911 on track ahead of you...take your time and you will learn more after each track day.
Many thanks for the replies, all the info I need and more!
Given no-one has mentioned hoses I assume the standard Porsche gear is up to the job, so I will probably start with fresh OEM discs, Pagid pads and one of the good fluids, and go from there.
Cheeers everyone!
(Paul - yes suspension is also on the list but will be a new thread...)
Given no-one has mentioned hoses I assume the standard Porsche gear is up to the job, so I will probably start with fresh OEM discs, Pagid pads and one of the good fluids, and go from there.
Cheeers everyone!
(Paul - yes suspension is also on the list but will be a new thread...)
Raven Flyer said:
Clubsport
If you did not alcohol flush it, it will only be working as well as the last remnants of mineral/synthetic fluid will allow.
Silicone fluid is recommended to be changed at max 6 month intervals, but race teams will change it after every event.
Completely new brake system throughout...yes master cylinder,calipers, hoses....I have no intention of using that car on track.....just interesting that in the classic car world silicone fluid has a far greater life expectancy than 6 months...never heard that before.
Another aspect of whether brakes will perform satisfactorily is whether the driver is braking satisfactorily.
On the road it doesn't matter much so long as you avoid glazing.
On the circuit, short, sharp use of the middle pedal means that the pads and rotors are in contact for a shorter period. This makes them less likely to fade.
Gradual, graceful, extended braking will cause both glazing and fade.
On the road it doesn't matter much so long as you avoid glazing.
On the circuit, short, sharp use of the middle pedal means that the pads and rotors are in contact for a shorter period. This makes them less likely to fade.
Gradual, graceful, extended braking will cause both glazing and fade.
Yes - trail braking does not help.
A good tutor i had on a trackday said to brake right to the limit of the ABS kicking in - helps to get some weight over the nose of the 911 for a split second (say by a gentle split second brake) before really standing on the brakes - brake as if you hate your brakes, they'll thank you for it by not fading.
Ajit.
A good tutor i had on a trackday said to brake right to the limit of the ABS kicking in - helps to get some weight over the nose of the 911 for a split second (say by a gentle split second brake) before really standing on the brakes - brake as if you hate your brakes, they'll thank you for it by not fading.
Ajit.
.. and just to answer your Q about braided hoses. Yes you'll need to do the front and the back. If you leave any of the system on normal rubber (ie not surrounded by hard but flexible steel braid) , then that's the bit that will expand when you hit the brakes hard. Thinking about it, it probably mildy dangereous NOT to do all round as you'll possibly flex the unbraided hose too much (ie instead of 4 'expanding' only 2 are but twice as much ...). And yes the brake bias is nearer 60/40 for a 911 compared to typical 80/20 for a front engine car so the rears are equally important ..! A think a set of braided hoses (4) are only £50 or so, so if you're bleeding the system anyway then IMO a worthy track upgrade.
Silicone fluid isn't suitable for a road car because it doesn't absorb water. This means the water that enters the hydraulic system remains in suspension in the fluid. Water has very bad lubication properties, can promote corrosion and obviously has a very low boiling point. The hygroscopic properties of DOT4 and DOT5.1 fluid protects you from these problems. Unless you need the extreme temperature rating of silicone fluid, it's a bad idea. (If you do need a very high temperature rating you would be better off uprating the brakes to improve the cooling because very high temperatures will cause all sorts of durability problems.)
Rethe braided hoses - worthwhile upgrade - but be sure they fit. I bought from two separate specialist dealers of parts in the UK when i had my 993. HAd to go back twice because they never quite fitted.
No problem apart from a pain in the arse and didn't end up with any braided hoses!
Ajit.
No problem apart from a pain in the arse and didn't end up with any braided hoses!
Ajit.
tertius said:
I'm keen to do some track days this year - largely a newbie at it - if you fancy the company of another 993 and the certainty that someone will be slower than you, let me know when you have in mind and maybe we can co-ordinate a day or two.
cheers
Dan
Yep sounds good, will be post April since that's when the winter tyres come off (and will take some time to get the brakes / suspension sorted). I am in Kent so tend to do Brands / Snetterton / Goodwood / Thruxton (at a push) / Hethel circuits. Did Mallory but it was a bit of a trek.
Will post up here when I'm going to one, would be good to have a fellow 993er on the track!
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