The history of TVR, by TVR
Discussion
And it doesn't even mention 'V8'. Or Rover. Truly a feat of evasive scriptwriting!
>> Edited by simpo two on Monday 20th February 12:08
tvr.co.uk/heritage said:
TVR was established in 1947 by Trevor Wilkinson. The first cars were specials using the drivelines from production cars, tuned and installed in a lightweight TVR chassis with minimal bodywork to maximise the agility and power-to-weight ratio, which remain TVR virtues to this day.
TVR made use of proprietary engines, like many low-volume manufacturers, to power its cars for many years. However, there were those who opined that this somehow diminished the cachet of the Great British sports cars from Blackpool, despite the fact that the engines, by the late '80s, were very heavily modified to TVR's own unique, high-power specifications.
That began to change in the early '90s with the birth of the TVR V8 engine, which in 1995 became the world's first racing engine to be de-tuned and installed in a road car: the TVR Cerbera. The Cerbera was a rude awakening for the supercar establishment. "0-100mph in nine seconds dead," screamed Autocar magazine's front cover.
But the Speed Eight (aka AJP8) was only the beginning. In 1997, a Griffith Speed Six concept car was unveiled at the Earls Court Motor Show. It showcased the TVR Speed Six engine, a very modern take on the quintessentially British, growling straight-six. The Speed Six engine, like the Speed Eight, first appeared in the Cerbera. But the Speed Six is renowned as the power-house of the jaw-dropping Tuscan Speed Six that starred with John Travolta and Halle Berry in the Hollywood movie Swordfish.
The Speed Six is also the power plant of the T400R, with which TVR returned to Les 24 Heures du Mans in France in 2003 and 2004. Both Speed Six-powered T400Rs finished this most gruelling of automotive challenges - no mean feat in a class dominated by German and Italian stalwarts.
At the end of 2004, the Speed Eight engine, after an illustrious motorsport career, not to mention a spectacular crop of headlines in the world's motoring press, ceased production with the Cerbera. Now, the Speed Six engine, in various guises, is at the heart of every current TVR model... etc
>> Edited by simpo two on Monday 20th February 12:08
thegamekeeper said:
So let me get this right, TVR used proprietary engines which they modified and used them in their cars for years.Then then used someones race engine, modified it and used it in their cars.. Progress??
'Someone's race engine'?
Whatever, the theme is 'history'. The Griffith and Chimaera propelled TVR from a quirky outfit few people had ever heard of into a desirable brand that got rave reviews and features on TV. That's what made them the money to progress. And now they can not only say what kind of engines these famous cars have (OK, I can forgive them for not mentioning 'Rover' after recent developments), but can't even bring themselves to say what layout it was. In my book 'V8' is something to be proud of, not to cover up.
Furthermore, the AJP series was *not* introduced because people thought 'Oh no, that big 5.0 V8 really spoils the car, I'd have bought one if only it had a TVR engine in it.' Bollox. The AJP series was initiated by Peter Wheeler for other reasons, namely envisaged new emission standards, the sale of Rover to BMW and the probable end of block production.
History is supposed to be accurate, not PR flannel trying to justify what they sell.
NB But seeing who you are, you knew all that anyway
>> Edited by simpo two on Monday 20th February 12:31
thegamekeeper said:
So let me get this right, TVR used proprietary engines which they modified and used them in their cars for years.Then then used someones race engine, modified it and used it in their cars.. Progress??
...where 'someones' race engine was TVRs own race engine. But, there's a bit of artistic licence in there - the AJP was a race engine only inasmuch as it was used in the Tuscan Challenge (as a test bed) and employed some race stylee technology like parts of the cooling and oiling system.
But it was not a full-on race engine as you might expect, say, an F1 engine to be. Hell, it only had 2-valve heads, with the valves in a line and not even a full-on cross-flow design. In terms of technology, modern motorcycle engines are probably lots closer to 'race engines' than the AJP. But, the AJP did (does) race, and so it can indeed be considered a proper race engine...even though that usually brings up conitations of 10+K red-lines, more valves that you can shake a stick at, powerbands so narrow you can't pull away at less than 5K, etc etc, of which the AJP was none of the above. But yes, when I had the Cerb I too used to blag 'detuned race engine'
Progress?? Hell yes.
tvrolet said:
...where 'someones' race engine was TVRs own race engine. But, there's a bit of artistic licence in there - the AJP was a race engine only inasmuch as it was used in the Tuscan Challenge (as a test bed) and employed some race stylee technology like parts of the cooling and oiling system.
The AJP race engine and the AJP road engine are also quite different, just talk to anyone whose tried to fit a road engine in a T/Challenge car
G
As a script/copywriter myself, it's actually very cleverly written, completely skipping the fact that the AJP8 was a V8.
Reverse-engineering the brief, I suspect it was 'Write something that leads up to and explains the Speed Six, but don't mention V8 because it's a contentious issue (because there's demand for one and we're not making it). Mention the Swordfish/Halle Berry bit too.'
What a pity they just couldn't have written a straightforward, honest history. There's nothing to be ashamed about! Why does TVR seem to deny the existence of/distance themselves from any car they made before yesterday? Every other marque is proud of its heritage.
Reverse-engineering the brief, I suspect it was 'Write something that leads up to and explains the Speed Six, but don't mention V8 because it's a contentious issue (because there's demand for one and we're not making it). Mention the Swordfish/Halle Berry bit too.'
What a pity they just couldn't have written a straightforward, honest history. There's nothing to be ashamed about! Why does TVR seem to deny the existence of/distance themselves from any car they made before yesterday? Every other marque is proud of its heritage.
simpo two said:
As a script/copywriter myself, it's actually very cleverly written, completely skipping the fact that the AJP8 was a V8.
Reverse-engineering the brief, I suspect it was 'Write something that leads up to and explains the Speed Six, but don't mention V8 because it's a contentious issue (because there's demand for one and we're not making it). Mention the Swordfish/Halle Berry bit too.'
What a pity they just couldn't have written a straightforward, honest history. There's nothing to be ashamed about! Why does TVR seem to deny the existence of/distance themselves from any car they made before yesterday? Every other marque is proud of its heritage.
Thanks for the compliment. You've second-guessed the brief reasonably well but for the suggestion of a Machiavellian anti-V8 sub plot.
Anyway, as the author of the piece, I thought I'd let you know that in its present use it's now out of context. A detailed archive of TVR models with Rover and various other drivetrains ought to accompany it - not least to help make sense of the varieties and oddities TVR has produced in its Ferrari/Lotus-rivalling 50+ year history.
The Rover V8-engined TVRs, for all their charm and emerging classic status, are out-of-date and outgunned by AJP8- or Speed Six-engined models. The majority of "Roverheads" drone on from a mantle of blissful ignorance in my experience - few have personal experience of AJP/Speed Six motoring. Personally, I would never go back to a Rover-engined car. They're just not quick enough. Torque/smoothness arguments in favour of the Rover lump? I'd point you in the direction of a contemporary Speed Six - i.e. go drive an 05/06 demonstrator. But cutting to the chase, of what relevance to a new TVR buyer is the Rover V8? None whatsoever.
As for "every other marque [being] proud of its heritage", I could rattle off a number from Lamborghini to Skoda that at best develop a selective memory.
Whether the AJP8 is or isn't the first race-to-road installation, it was a claim made by TVR that despite searching an ample library of car books I haven't been able to disprove. So enlighten us Andrew!
Skoda are so embarassed about their past they have a museum in Mlada Boleslav proudly displaying their 101 year heritage and some of their innovative early engineering lead contemporary development. I am not a Skoda fan but they do have pride not denial in their past and only a war torn communist economy made them build budget cars for the fortunate few in czechoslovakia.
What were the underpinnings of the Ferrari F40???
Wasn't the Mercedes Gullwing based on the Mille Miglia winning SLR which Ulenhaut used as everyday transport to help develop it. And ironically the 1956 TVR open sports car which Trevor and Jack Pickard used to race has a very uncanny resemblance to the SLR Mercedes, body styling, inboard rear drum brakes. Trevor got his inspiration from Moss's race car. TVR should be proud of what they are but would not be where they are if they hadn't evolved from more humble beginnings sTeVeR
>> Edited by thegamekeeper on Monday 20th February 19:14
What were the underpinnings of the Ferrari F40???
Wasn't the Mercedes Gullwing based on the Mille Miglia winning SLR which Ulenhaut used as everyday transport to help develop it. And ironically the 1956 TVR open sports car which Trevor and Jack Pickard used to race has a very uncanny resemblance to the SLR Mercedes, body styling, inboard rear drum brakes. Trevor got his inspiration from Moss's race car. TVR should be proud of what they are but would not be where they are if they hadn't evolved from more humble beginnings sTeVeR
>> Edited by thegamekeeper on Monday 20th February 19:14
[the piece in question is] now out of context. A detailed archive of TVR models with Rover and various other drivetrains ought to accompany it - not least to help make sense of the varieties and oddities TVR has produced in its Ferrari/Lotus-rivalling 50+ year history. I agree TVR should make more of its history - it's got a fascinating heritage to talk about.
thegamekeeper said:
Wasn't the Mercedes Gullwing based on the Mille Miglia winning SLR which Ulenhaut used as everyday transport to help develop it
Almost. The original Gullwing was the 1952 racer, then came the road car developed from it, then the straight-eight SLR racer which won the Mille Miglia. Uhlenhaut's car was a coupe version of the open-top SLR, which he drove not so much to help develop the SLR as to demoralise the F1 opposition by always getting to the circuits before they did...
The Gullwing road car doesn't count as a detuned racer because it produced more power than the race car it was derived from, because it had fuel injection. Says so here.
Certainly the Alfa Montreal V8, 'Ferrari' Dino V6, BMW 24-valve straight six, Porsche 356 Carrera and Jaguar XJ220 are all road engines directly descended from race engines. You could arguably add various Aston Martin engines on the grounds that they appeared in racing before they were used in road cars, but really they were designed for road use.
I'm sure there are others.
BossCerbera said:Very true,the Rv8 is outgunned i agree,you also have to move on i feel.The S6 cars do drive well,no doubt about it.I have to disagree with you though about the droning from a blissfully ignorant majority.The number of us reverting back to the RV8 is growing rapidly,and it's not for the performance,as we both agree.RV8 fans are made of of mostly people who want a fair degree of reliability with their performance.You sound like the typical TVR management employee with head buried firmly in the sand where the S6 is concerned,apologies if i am wrong.The time has long since past where the S6 should also have been consigned to TVR's past history,the net effect of them not doing so has resulted in sales of just 400 cars a year for the past two years,and i'd be surprised if that improves much if they just stick to the S6.
The Rover V8-engined TVRs, for all their charm and emerging classic status, are out-of-date and outgunned by AJP8- or Speed Six-engined models. The majority of "Roverheads" drone on from a mantle of blissful ignorance in my experience - few have personal experience of AJP/Speed Six motoring.......But cutting to the chase, of what relevance to a new TVR buyer is the Rover V8? None whatsoever.
So,what relevance has the RV8 with potential new customers?None sadly,we agree there also,but for different reasons.It would have been great for TVR if they could have mentioned the RV8 in a line like 'TVR reliability has always been something to be proud of,from the landmark eighties and through the nineties with the RV8,and up to the present day with our own designed and built S6..........etc'.But sadly thats not possible is it?.None of us want TVR to disappear,but unless they start to listen to what people want, then thats inevitable i feel.Lets hope that this year,is the year that something changes
>> Edited by mongoose on Monday 20th February 19:43
mongoose said:
You sound like the typical TVR management employee with head buried firmly in the sand where the S6 is concerned,apologies if i am wrong.
Apology accepted, damned right you're wrong.
mongoose said:
The time has long since past where the S6 should also have been consigned to TVR's past history,the net effect of them not doing so has resulted in sales of just 400 cars a year for the past two years,and i'd be surprised if that improves much if they just stick to the S6.
Bin it ...or deal with the situation properly. "Properly" to include a plan to rescue the disastrous used S6 TVR position and offer up scientific proof of the improvements which underpin the current 36K/36M warranty. I read the other day how 'fears' for GM's future are losing custom because of concern about the company being around to honour its warranty. GENERAL MOTORS FFS!!! Market confidence/perception is never to be sniffed at - the market's concerns all too often lead to self-fulfilling prophecies.
mongoose said:
None of us want TVR to disappear,but unless they start to listen to what people want, then thats inevitable i feel.Lets hope that this year,is the year that something changes
Others are listening.
Hello Boss,
Pleased to meet you, and well done for owning up. I maintain - and you agree - that the piece as it stands is neither 'history' nor 'heritage'.
True indeed. But rivalling Ferrari? I don't think so! I have a TVR and wouldn't exchange it for anything else, but I do have things in perspective.
Yes, the RV8 is a very old design and the AJPs are quicker (once you get them up to the required 4,000rpm for anything to happen) but whether I get to 60mph in 4.5, 4.1 or even 3.9 seconds is immaterial for all practical, and even fun, purposes. And few people can honestly say that an S6 sounds better than a big V8.
I drove a T350 and disliked every part of it - except for the electric windows (which worked well), and the fuel filler cap. But then I was on normal roads and not caning the nuts off it on track. I'm not a Roverhead as such, but to misquote Peter Wheeler (he owned TVR once), 'I'm not having anything with six cylinders in my fun car'
None. But your piece was supposed to address the heritage of TVR, not be a fluffy sales brochure for the S6. As a highly selective piece for pumping up S6s, for newbies it works well. As a history of TVR, it isn't. In particular I take issue with the reason you quote for the move away from the RV8, which, as a well-informed follower of TVR over the years, former TVRCC RO, contributor to Sprint etc etc, I believe is pure invention. Why invent? And the old Swordfish thing; jeez, how worn is that? Haven't they been chosen for any films since? If not, why not?
Sure, every maker has the odd turkey. But TVR chooses to ignore even its past winners. It's a company trait I don't understand. Your 'history' didn't even mention its two most successful and best-selling models! In fact it was the pretty 'S' series which started the return, but I don't suppose anyone remembers those now.
But we all have briefs to adhere to and I'll put this one down to yours. We're all slaves to our clients eh? Cheers Boss
Pleased to meet you, and well done for owning up. I maintain - and you agree - that the piece as it stands is neither 'history' nor 'heritage'.
Boss said:
A detailed archive of TVR models with Rover and various other drivetrains ought to accompany it - not least to help make sense of the varieties and oddities TVR has produced in its Ferrari/Lotus-rivalling 50+ year history.
True indeed. But rivalling Ferrari? I don't think so! I have a TVR and wouldn't exchange it for anything else, but I do have things in perspective.
Boss said:
The Rover V8-engined TVRs, for all their charm and emerging classic status, are out-of-date and outgunned by AJP8- or Speed Six-engined models.
Yes, the RV8 is a very old design and the AJPs are quicker (once you get them up to the required 4,000rpm for anything to happen) but whether I get to 60mph in 4.5, 4.1 or even 3.9 seconds is immaterial for all practical, and even fun, purposes. And few people can honestly say that an S6 sounds better than a big V8.
Phil said:
The majority of "Roverheads" drone on from a mantle of blissful ignorance in my experience - few have personal experience of AJP/Speed Six motoring.
I drove a T350 and disliked every part of it - except for the electric windows (which worked well), and the fuel filler cap. But then I was on normal roads and not caning the nuts off it on track. I'm not a Roverhead as such, but to misquote Peter Wheeler (he owned TVR once), 'I'm not having anything with six cylinders in my fun car'
Phil said:
But cutting to the chase, of what relevance to a new TVR buyer is the Rover V8? None whatsoever.
None. But your piece was supposed to address the heritage of TVR, not be a fluffy sales brochure for the S6. As a highly selective piece for pumping up S6s, for newbies it works well. As a history of TVR, it isn't. In particular I take issue with the reason you quote for the move away from the RV8, which, as a well-informed follower of TVR over the years, former TVRCC RO, contributor to Sprint etc etc, I believe is pure invention. Why invent? And the old Swordfish thing; jeez, how worn is that? Haven't they been chosen for any films since? If not, why not?
Phil said:
As for "every other marque [being] proud of its heritage", I could rattle off a number from Lamborghini to Skoda that at best develop a selective memory.
Sure, every maker has the odd turkey. But TVR chooses to ignore even its past winners. It's a company trait I don't understand. Your 'history' didn't even mention its two most successful and best-selling models! In fact it was the pretty 'S' series which started the return, but I don't suppose anyone remembers those now.
But we all have briefs to adhere to and I'll put this one down to yours. We're all slaves to our clients eh? Cheers Boss
So, they had Rover v8 engined cars for over 20 years, and completely ignore it, speaks volumes.
oh in the most succesful period of TVR's history. how many chims built, and griffs, and v8's and wedge's
disappointing, yes they've moved on, but denying the past of reliable engines........
B
oh in the most succesful period of TVR's history. how many chims built, and griffs, and v8's and wedge's
disappointing, yes they've moved on, but denying the past of reliable engines........
B
So, they had Rover v8 engined cars for over 20 years, and completely ignore it, speaks volumes.
oh in the most succesful period of TVR's history. how many chims built, and griffs, and v8's and wedge's
disappointing, yes they've moved on, but denying the past of reliable engines........ (ok - low maintenance engines, shall we say)
B
oh in the most succesful period of TVR's history. how many chims built, and griffs, and v8's and wedge's
disappointing, yes they've moved on, but denying the past of reliable engines........ (ok - low maintenance engines, shall we say)
B
JR said:
1995 became the world's first racing engine to be de-tuned and installed in a road car: the TVR Cerbera.
What about Coventry Climax in a TVR in 1958.
And the same/similar Climax engine in the Lotus Elite in 1957 (and other Loti before that if you're charitable and call them road cars). I knew there were others.
The piece doesn't actually say production car either, there must have been plenty of one-offs over the years with race engines...
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