This Post Started Out Being About "Discretion"...
Discussion
This started off being just about “discretion”, but as I typed it, it just seemed to get longer of its own accord. Anyway, read on…
The cycle of BiB bashing on PH seems again to be in the ascendant. It seems to be, on the whole, new(er) posters, who want to have a moan, and tar all the Police with the same brush, because of a bad experience they, or more usually someone they “know”, has had with an officer.
There are plenty of PHers I’ve had disagreements with, and plenty more I agree with. It seems to me that most of the posters here would like to see an increase in Police officers, and perhaps Traffic officers even more so, rather than simply being “policed” by indiscriminate yellow or grey boxes at the side of the road, or operators whose sole role is to operate camera vans.
It also seems to me that these Police officers are required to be able to apply common sense and discretion, especially in their dealings with the public. The other side of the coin is that these same officers should be above reproach, never have an off day, never make an honest mistake…
I am not so naïve as to believe that all Police officers behave impeccably and within the law at all times, either on or off duty. I do know that the vast majority of Police officers I know and work with try their hardest, most of the time. At the end of the day, Police officers are human beings, with the capacity for the same good points and bad points as every other human being on the face of the planet
No doubt there will be some of you reading this who think “Well trying your best isn’t good enough; it should be done right every time.” Yes, it should be done right every time, but who can honestly say they are always right about everything? Who never makes a mistake?
There are Police officers in their late teens or early twenties, who are expected to rapidly master all aspects of modern policing. It is becoming an increasingly complex job, with increasing workloads. Britain is becoming a much more self centred society, where many people are only interested in “their” rights and everyone else’s “responsibilities”. These people often have a gripe that they want the Police to sort out for them, but they aren’t at all interested in reciprocation. It makes a refreshing change when you deal with someone who is pragmatic and magnanimous, especially if they didn’t start out that way.
There are many aspects of Policing that do need to be addressed and improved. The amount of paperwork for just about every interaction with the public is increasing, often much of it with duplication or triplication. Yes the Police need to be accountable, but surely in these modern times, there must be more efficient working methods? Or do we stick with the systems we have, because to change them would cost a lot of money. We all pay lip service to a better Police service, a better NHS, better schools, but who really wants to pay more tax? I know I don’t.
There are a very, very tiny minority Police officers who are corrupt, lazy or criminal. There are people in every walk of life who are corrupt, lazy or criminal. This type of person should not be in the Police, but they do slip through the net. When they are found, their behaviour should be addressed and dealt with appropriately. In any case, even honest, hardworking Police officers are already constrained in their private lives, merely because of the job they do. There are rules governing where and who you can live with, whether you can earn money in addition to a Police salary, and restrictions on private life, such as not being able to be a member of a political party.
I’m sure there are some “keyboard warriors” on PH who could do a much better job than me, or the rest of the BiB on here. My reply to that would be to ask them whether they’d be prepared to be pushed, slapped, kicked, bitten, headbutted, punched, spat at, vomited on, shouted and sworn at, on a regular basis, for no other reason than wearing a Police uniform? If they are, then would they also be prepared to work gruelling shifts in all weathers, sometimes with inadequate equipment and little or no backup? Would they be prepared to go to fatal accidents, suicides, deliver death messages, attend autopsies of babies and children, deal with the same offenders again and again because of inadequate sentencing powers, feel impotent and useless when dealing with victims because there is no way you can help them, even though they deserve better? And if they could, would they do it all for £30,000 a year without grumbling?
In summary, there are good Police officers and there are bad Police officers. If you’ve been unlucky enough to come into contact with one you think is bad, first of all ask yourself if you’ve ever had an off day. If you think you’ve not been treated as you should have been treated, then make a formal complaint to the Officer’s supervisor, or the Professional Standards Department. The incident may or may not be resolved to your satisfaction, but I can guarantee you that if all you do is moan about it here on PH, and have a pop at the BiB on here while doing so, it will never be resolved to your satisfaction.
The BiB on here are in a minority. If the BiB bashing continues, it may well become a BiB free zone, which would be of no benefit to anyone. PHers would lose people who may well be “in the know” about something they’d like to ask, and the BiB would lose the ability to tell it like it really is from the other side of the parapet.
The cycle of BiB bashing on PH seems again to be in the ascendant. It seems to be, on the whole, new(er) posters, who want to have a moan, and tar all the Police with the same brush, because of a bad experience they, or more usually someone they “know”, has had with an officer.
There are plenty of PHers I’ve had disagreements with, and plenty more I agree with. It seems to me that most of the posters here would like to see an increase in Police officers, and perhaps Traffic officers even more so, rather than simply being “policed” by indiscriminate yellow or grey boxes at the side of the road, or operators whose sole role is to operate camera vans.
It also seems to me that these Police officers are required to be able to apply common sense and discretion, especially in their dealings with the public. The other side of the coin is that these same officers should be above reproach, never have an off day, never make an honest mistake…
I am not so naïve as to believe that all Police officers behave impeccably and within the law at all times, either on or off duty. I do know that the vast majority of Police officers I know and work with try their hardest, most of the time. At the end of the day, Police officers are human beings, with the capacity for the same good points and bad points as every other human being on the face of the planet
No doubt there will be some of you reading this who think “Well trying your best isn’t good enough; it should be done right every time.” Yes, it should be done right every time, but who can honestly say they are always right about everything? Who never makes a mistake?
There are Police officers in their late teens or early twenties, who are expected to rapidly master all aspects of modern policing. It is becoming an increasingly complex job, with increasing workloads. Britain is becoming a much more self centred society, where many people are only interested in “their” rights and everyone else’s “responsibilities”. These people often have a gripe that they want the Police to sort out for them, but they aren’t at all interested in reciprocation. It makes a refreshing change when you deal with someone who is pragmatic and magnanimous, especially if they didn’t start out that way.
There are many aspects of Policing that do need to be addressed and improved. The amount of paperwork for just about every interaction with the public is increasing, often much of it with duplication or triplication. Yes the Police need to be accountable, but surely in these modern times, there must be more efficient working methods? Or do we stick with the systems we have, because to change them would cost a lot of money. We all pay lip service to a better Police service, a better NHS, better schools, but who really wants to pay more tax? I know I don’t.
There are a very, very tiny minority Police officers who are corrupt, lazy or criminal. There are people in every walk of life who are corrupt, lazy or criminal. This type of person should not be in the Police, but they do slip through the net. When they are found, their behaviour should be addressed and dealt with appropriately. In any case, even honest, hardworking Police officers are already constrained in their private lives, merely because of the job they do. There are rules governing where and who you can live with, whether you can earn money in addition to a Police salary, and restrictions on private life, such as not being able to be a member of a political party.
I’m sure there are some “keyboard warriors” on PH who could do a much better job than me, or the rest of the BiB on here. My reply to that would be to ask them whether they’d be prepared to be pushed, slapped, kicked, bitten, headbutted, punched, spat at, vomited on, shouted and sworn at, on a regular basis, for no other reason than wearing a Police uniform? If they are, then would they also be prepared to work gruelling shifts in all weathers, sometimes with inadequate equipment and little or no backup? Would they be prepared to go to fatal accidents, suicides, deliver death messages, attend autopsies of babies and children, deal with the same offenders again and again because of inadequate sentencing powers, feel impotent and useless when dealing with victims because there is no way you can help them, even though they deserve better? And if they could, would they do it all for £30,000 a year without grumbling?
In summary, there are good Police officers and there are bad Police officers. If you’ve been unlucky enough to come into contact with one you think is bad, first of all ask yourself if you’ve ever had an off day. If you think you’ve not been treated as you should have been treated, then make a formal complaint to the Officer’s supervisor, or the Professional Standards Department. The incident may or may not be resolved to your satisfaction, but I can guarantee you that if all you do is moan about it here on PH, and have a pop at the BiB on here while doing so, it will never be resolved to your satisfaction.
The BiB on here are in a minority. If the BiB bashing continues, it may well become a BiB free zone, which would be of no benefit to anyone. PHers would lose people who may well be “in the know” about something they’d like to ask, and the BiB would lose the ability to tell it like it really is from the other side of the parapet.
from this PH'er, generally speaking they do a wonderful job in very trying circumstances..........
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
Good post.
Would grown ups really be deterred by monkeys making ignorant posts? I actually find all the twerps quite amusing.
Aye but if it was endlessly aimed at you you might get narked as well.
I read a lot of total drivel here about stuff that I happen to work in, but prefer not to rise to it. You can never win an argument with a keyboard.
tvrgit said:
Good post.
Would grown ups really be deterred by monkeys making ignorant posts? I actually find all the twerps quite amusing.
Aye but if it was endlessly aimed at you you might get narked as well.
I read a lot of total drivel here about stuff that I happen to work in, but prefer not to rise to it. You can never win an argument with a keyboard.
Exactly. If you don't feed the trolls they soon get bored.
:Raises hand:
Can I point out that I never bash the BiB?
In fact, I would like to take this opportunity to thank yet another Law Enforcement Official.
Yesterday, a little after 7pm, I was doing 80 (actual) in the middle lane of the M5(N) and about to get trapped in behind a middle lane hogger .... so I indicated clearly, watching the headlights of the faster moving car a little way back coming up on the outside. Now, I'm in a company van driving back from a very long day's work and there's no way I can get past this other car before the faster car reaches me but, if I slow down on that stretch, it'll take an age to get back up to 80 ... so I decide to put my foot flat down and move out.
In other words, I cut up this car. I indicated clearly, but was in no doubt he'd have to slow to let me get past the other car.
It's something I'm sure we've all done. Something every numpty will do without realising. It's something I don't like doing and usually I'd have slowed ... but I'd already been out for 14 hours and I had another 2 hours driving to do.
Anyway ... I've probably squeezed another 5 mph out of the van and was most of the way past by the time the car came up on my bumper. That's when it flashed the blues at me.
Awwww .... c'mon!
Anyhoo ... this particularly nice BiB had a look at me as he went past and decided to leave me to go on my way as I slowed back down to a displayed 75.
Thank you, sir .... and I hope you had a good weekend.
Can I point out that I never bash the BiB?
In fact, I would like to take this opportunity to thank yet another Law Enforcement Official.
Yesterday, a little after 7pm, I was doing 80 (actual) in the middle lane of the M5(N) and about to get trapped in behind a middle lane hogger .... so I indicated clearly, watching the headlights of the faster moving car a little way back coming up on the outside. Now, I'm in a company van driving back from a very long day's work and there's no way I can get past this other car before the faster car reaches me but, if I slow down on that stretch, it'll take an age to get back up to 80 ... so I decide to put my foot flat down and move out.
In other words, I cut up this car. I indicated clearly, but was in no doubt he'd have to slow to let me get past the other car.
It's something I'm sure we've all done. Something every numpty will do without realising. It's something I don't like doing and usually I'd have slowed ... but I'd already been out for 14 hours and I had another 2 hours driving to do.
Anyway ... I've probably squeezed another 5 mph out of the van and was most of the way past by the time the car came up on my bumper. That's when it flashed the blues at me.
Awwww .... c'mon!
Anyhoo ... this particularly nice BiB had a look at me as he went past and decided to leave me to go on my way as I slowed back down to a displayed 75.
Thank you, sir .... and I hope you had a good weekend.
Thank you, Dibble.
I would hope that, just as there may be a small group of BIB who don't belong there, and a much larger group who might have the odd off-day, there is only a small group of PHers who don't belong here, and the rest of us who like everyone else will have our odd off-days.
I may have the wrong end of the stick, but it's my sense that the overwhelming majority of PHers are supportive of and sympathetic to police officers, who have a vital, risky and yet seemingly thankless job.
What riles a lot of people, including me, is all the apparent nonsense that influences and interferes with what we think of as proper policing.
You yourself allude to all the bureaucratic crap, the form-filling, the camera partnerships (obviously a special interest of PHers).
You guys don't set your agendas - that's done by the numbnuts in Government, dictatorial civil servants, the media and, I daresay, that percentage of the senior police whose career ambitions are greater than their abilities or judgment.
I hope that we all can deal - if only under protest - with the occasional officer who cites someone for tooting a horn or giving the finger or using everyday BBC language within earshot. We should be able to deal with the occasional officer who cites someone for taking a swig of water while stopped at a red light or biting an apple while driving. It's not a perfect world for any of us. None of that really matters.
Let us all have more empathy with and support for individual police officers, whilst condemning in the strongest terms some of the indefensible policies that they are instructed to enforce and we all are expected to accept.
I would hope that, just as there may be a small group of BIB who don't belong there, and a much larger group who might have the odd off-day, there is only a small group of PHers who don't belong here, and the rest of us who like everyone else will have our odd off-days.
I may have the wrong end of the stick, but it's my sense that the overwhelming majority of PHers are supportive of and sympathetic to police officers, who have a vital, risky and yet seemingly thankless job.
What riles a lot of people, including me, is all the apparent nonsense that influences and interferes with what we think of as proper policing.
You yourself allude to all the bureaucratic crap, the form-filling, the camera partnerships (obviously a special interest of PHers).
You guys don't set your agendas - that's done by the numbnuts in Government, dictatorial civil servants, the media and, I daresay, that percentage of the senior police whose career ambitions are greater than their abilities or judgment.
I hope that we all can deal - if only under protest - with the occasional officer who cites someone for tooting a horn or giving the finger or using everyday BBC language within earshot. We should be able to deal with the occasional officer who cites someone for taking a swig of water while stopped at a red light or biting an apple while driving. It's not a perfect world for any of us. None of that really matters.
Let us all have more empathy with and support for individual police officers, whilst condemning in the strongest terms some of the indefensible policies that they are instructed to enforce and we all are expected to accept.
I think you are right that most people want to see more Police. I think though they actually want to see more BiB and they want to see a presence. I'm not convinced there aren't enough actual Police Officers, just that they are badly managed and deployed.
Your presence here is what stops the BiB bashing, I think - after a while anyway. For a MoP dealing with the 'Police' in the sense of a real live Policeman or woman is about as likely as seeing a dinosaur ; with the exception of the ever popular and well resourced "safety" work.
Your (and other BiBs) postings put a human face on it. As infuriated as one may be by the goings on in the "Police Service", you guys are doing a tough job (made harder by idiots !) and you can't control the lopsided priorities of the "Service".
Individuals view of discretion will almost always be "there are special circumstances for me, but you should nail all those other b*stards" ; this is just human nature and extends as far as murderers, read some Dalrymple
One problem I have with Police "misbehaviour" is that its handling seems (to me, anyway) to be wayward. Triviality (not reporting racist jokes or "Pond life"
or PC stuff or paperwork errors or targetism seems to be 'important' ; well, no it isn't, no-one gives a toss about that. What *is* important is weening out the bad apples in the Police - there are I would add very very few of these, but the damage they do is incalculable.
Your comments on 'mistake' are good points. There is a counterpoint, however, which I think has *some* validity, which is that there is decreasing use of discretion by "the Police" ; mainly in the usage of Speed Cameras which are indelibly associated with BiB, however unfairly.
The motorist (and to some extent other areas, particularly mine of Education) seems to be treated to the "letter of the law" and seemingly *no* excuse is allowable and perfection is demanded. It is perhaps unsurprising that people feel this approach should be reciprocated to the Police Officers themselves.
I agree wholeheartedly with your views about rights vs responsibilities. From where we are now I'm really not sure how to fix it. It is one of those problems whereby it is almost "against interest" not to be a tosser these days, as the state will always bail you out.
The productive individuals and businesses must wonder why they bother working as increasing amounts are extracted to pay the feckless and the pointless. At some point it has to collapse in a heap ; probably when cheap debt is withdrawn sometime this year.
There is no way out of the paperwork other than shooting New Labour IMO, with their endless "red tape blitzes" which inevitably means more and more forms to find out where to remove the other forms etc. This is universal in Britain. Regulation and more quangos to monitor it. If that doesn't work, obviously need more regulation. It is a core Labour belief and they aren't going to change. Time spent doing mindless form filling distracts from doing the actual *job*. This will always happen, but again, it's just out of control, with the endless regulators with their endless demands.
It is completely mindless and not helped by Parkinson's Law and incompetent Public Sector management, *especially* IT. This also is universal. The "new systems" don't work because (i) they are designed by Consultants who have no clue about anything (ii) public sector managers will sign any stupid contracts so get stung and (iii) no-one ever actually asks the poor s*ds who do the job what they think.
Paperwork and targets do not make the Police "accountable", they just make it look as if they are ; no-one believes the crime figures anymore (or any other government stats), the comparison to Stalin's tractor production is pretty fair. Their function is to provide employment for the paper pushers, and they are not going to go away without a fight. If you simply cut the Police budget the cost cutting will be dumped straight on the front line coppers, same as everywhere else.
There's no need to pay more tax ; just use efficiently what we have. All the money poured into the various public sectors (notably Health) has made absolutely bugger all difference ; largely it is wasted on pointless nonsense. The real problem is the total *lack* of accountability in expenditure, which is laughable.
I am intrigued that you cannot be a member of a Political party, in fact I am amazed !
>> Edited by autismuk on Sunday 26th February 22:42
Your presence here is what stops the BiB bashing, I think - after a while anyway. For a MoP dealing with the 'Police' in the sense of a real live Policeman or woman is about as likely as seeing a dinosaur ; with the exception of the ever popular and well resourced "safety" work.
Your (and other BiBs) postings put a human face on it. As infuriated as one may be by the goings on in the "Police Service", you guys are doing a tough job (made harder by idiots !) and you can't control the lopsided priorities of the "Service".
Individuals view of discretion will almost always be "there are special circumstances for me, but you should nail all those other b*stards" ; this is just human nature and extends as far as murderers, read some Dalrymple
One problem I have with Police "misbehaviour" is that its handling seems (to me, anyway) to be wayward. Triviality (not reporting racist jokes or "Pond life"
or PC stuff or paperwork errors or targetism seems to be 'important' ; well, no it isn't, no-one gives a toss about that. What *is* important is weening out the bad apples in the Police - there are I would add very very few of these, but the damage they do is incalculable. Your comments on 'mistake' are good points. There is a counterpoint, however, which I think has *some* validity, which is that there is decreasing use of discretion by "the Police" ; mainly in the usage of Speed Cameras which are indelibly associated with BiB, however unfairly.
The motorist (and to some extent other areas, particularly mine of Education) seems to be treated to the "letter of the law" and seemingly *no* excuse is allowable and perfection is demanded. It is perhaps unsurprising that people feel this approach should be reciprocated to the Police Officers themselves.
I agree wholeheartedly with your views about rights vs responsibilities. From where we are now I'm really not sure how to fix it. It is one of those problems whereby it is almost "against interest" not to be a tosser these days, as the state will always bail you out.
The productive individuals and businesses must wonder why they bother working as increasing amounts are extracted to pay the feckless and the pointless. At some point it has to collapse in a heap ; probably when cheap debt is withdrawn sometime this year.
There is no way out of the paperwork other than shooting New Labour IMO, with their endless "red tape blitzes" which inevitably means more and more forms to find out where to remove the other forms etc. This is universal in Britain. Regulation and more quangos to monitor it. If that doesn't work, obviously need more regulation. It is a core Labour belief and they aren't going to change. Time spent doing mindless form filling distracts from doing the actual *job*. This will always happen, but again, it's just out of control, with the endless regulators with their endless demands.
It is completely mindless and not helped by Parkinson's Law and incompetent Public Sector management, *especially* IT. This also is universal. The "new systems" don't work because (i) they are designed by Consultants who have no clue about anything (ii) public sector managers will sign any stupid contracts so get stung and (iii) no-one ever actually asks the poor s*ds who do the job what they think.
Paperwork and targets do not make the Police "accountable", they just make it look as if they are ; no-one believes the crime figures anymore (or any other government stats), the comparison to Stalin's tractor production is pretty fair. Their function is to provide employment for the paper pushers, and they are not going to go away without a fight. If you simply cut the Police budget the cost cutting will be dumped straight on the front line coppers, same as everywhere else.
There's no need to pay more tax ; just use efficiently what we have. All the money poured into the various public sectors (notably Health) has made absolutely bugger all difference ; largely it is wasted on pointless nonsense. The real problem is the total *lack* of accountability in expenditure, which is laughable.
I am intrigued that you cannot be a member of a Political party, in fact I am amazed !
>> Edited by autismuk on Sunday 26th February 22:42
flemke said:
I hope that we all can deal - if only under protest - with the occasional officer who cites someone for tooting a horn or giving the finger or using everyday BBC language within earshot.
The problem with situations such as these are that we only have the information we are given, usually from one side of the fence. None of us were there at the time, so it is difficult to comment on these individual cases with any degree of accuracy.
What the BiB (and the likes of DvD and FiF) on here can do is to advise on matters of law in general, or more specifically when the detail is given, rather than these sort of situations.
The £80 PND issued to the young man in Kent may have been over zealous, or it may not. As far as I know, the only version of events in the public domain at the moment is that of the young man in question. On the face of it, he has been "hard done by". That assessment may change after the result of any court proceedings.
Dibble said:Indeed, and we can be sure that the media sensationalise these stories for all they're worth.
I hope that we all can deal - if only under protest - with the occasional officer who cites someone for tooting a horn or giving the finger or using everyday BBC language within earshot.
It was, however, really funny when someone on PH pointed out that he'd like to have received £80 for every time he'd heard a BIB tell someone to "Fu ck off!"
Well said, Dibble. There are a number of BiB I know who have stopped posting here and gone to other forums (fora?) such as 5ive-o where they have an easier time of it (which incidentally has a couple of JPs posting - interesting reading), but the cut of thrust of PH will miss them.
As long as the debate is polite and moderate, then I see no reason why healthy exchange of views shouldn't happen, but having a go at someone becasue of their job when they are off-duty has got to be a bit wearing.
As long as the debate is polite and moderate, then I see no reason why healthy exchange of views shouldn't happen, but having a go at someone becasue of their job when they are off-duty has got to be a bit wearing.
Dibble said:
Blimey! Autismuk and I apparently singing from the same sheet... I may need a lie down!
I might moan about being a BiB, but I'm glad I'm not a nurse or a teacher. They really do earn their money.
I've always agreed with you more than not, believe it or not ;-)
Actually it's very similar in Health and Education. The front-line person (the Nurse, the Teacher, or the BiB) is what people perceive as "the workforce", and is usually battling head on against the idiocies of the system. It's actually a far smaller proportion of the workforce than people realise from the outside.
(As an aside, my Wife is about 2/3 of the way through a trainee nursing course. You'd be horrified how *little* of that is formalised training of practical nursing skills.)
Similarly, there are reams of paperwork that don't actually help matters much. If you have children you may get a very impressive looking school report full of very wordy and expressive statements. These are usually culled directly from National Curriculum documents ; there is less actual 'teacher input' often than there is in 'Could try harder' statements.
And, the stats with regards to waiting lists etc., and exam results are gerrymandered nonsense, the "best schools" are selective or are in leafy suburbs, the "most improved" schools cheat the figures blatantly.
It's *endless*.
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