An S1 Elise with S2 suspension - Why?
Discussion
I am looking to buy an S1 Elise and I have seen several adverts saying that the suspension has been changed / Upgraded to S2 suspension, why is this?
I know the ride is better / improved but surely the chassis has been changed slightly too. Is this very important?
Is there anything that is a must or very good idea that should have been done or replaced?
Thanks.
Nothing has been done to the chassis. The original red koni's are horrible. They were an off the shelf item and never designed for the car. They make odd noises over bumps too. That the S2 was 2 or 3 seconds faster around hethel was solely due to the newer suspension. S2 bilsteins are far better than the red koni's. All in all a very nice addition. The only thing they required to fit were adjuster plates for the ride height.
Do not let this put you off, it is a good thing.
With the S2 suspension, S1's are generally quicker than S2's with the same engines.
Do not let this put you off, it is a good thing.
With the S2 suspension, S1's are generally quicker than S2's with the same engines.shangani said:
Do not let this put you off, it is a good thing.
Oh? In my experience S1 is quicker than S2 regardless.... not met one that can match my laptimes on a track yet!
Hehe mind you, the only Elise I know with S2 suspension is a tweaked honda one and that's t
tting fast! shangani said:
Are you still on red koni's?
Yup... still on red Konis and still yet to find a faster S2
Actually still to find a faster rover-engined Elise fullstop But then it's all about how you drive it and I've tended to be a little more brutal than most. At Taupo, the only Lotuses that lap quicker than my (almost) boggo S1 is an S2 Exige and S1 Honda, at Pukekohe (fastest track in the southern hemisphere) it's the same story with one or two of the faster 111Rs also edging me out (As well as the V8 Esprits). Mind you, there are only about 50 Elise/Exiges in NZ and I've probably only met about 20 of these on-track, it's not exactly a representative sample in general
Was no better feeling than the last CLNZ sprints coming second on the timesheets by only 0.2s... the only guy ahead of me was the old owner of my car in his new track-prepped S2 Exige
Mind you, my car is pretty low mileage and has been VERY well looked after... when my Konis DO get tired, I don't imagine I'll be replacing them with the standard items, I'll either go the Bilstein route or just bite the bullet and put some Nitrons on.
>> Edited by Esprit on Tuesday 28th February 08:58
enjybenjy said:
Esprit, sounds like you are a pretty shit hot driver
I was thinking that, yes . Mind you, no disrespect to Esprit, but when I went on my first track day I instantly noticed how much the driving standard varied. You'd get some guys flying round pretty quickly and others who (cringe) couldn't even heel and toe - pootling into each bend and holding their cars well below the limit. I think pace on a track day tells you a lot more about the drivers than the cars to be honest. I once sat with a guy in a racing Caterham who was struggling to catch and pass a TT roadster. Yes - really! 
Also, you have to consider the money factor. If I had a slightly tatty £9k S1 I'd drive it a lot harder on track than I would my £20k S2.enjybenjy said:
Esprit, sounds like you are a pretty shit hot driver
Hehe hardly, As Rob says there's a HUGE variation in driving skill at these days. I used to race Karts as a kid, and although that ws over a decade ago and I wasn't all that good, the same driving principles tend to carry over to the Elise pretty well I've found. I mean when I've managed to gradually haul-in a F360 around Pukekohe I'm picking it's NOT because the Elise is a faster car, it's because the driver's taking it easier
Not everyone goes toa trackday to REALLY push their cars or to chase tenths of a second off their best laptime, some just go to gradually find their limits and that of their cars.... more power to them No matter how good a driver you are, you're still bound to get your doors blown off someday by someone driving something that SHOULD be much slower.... I've had a hard time keeping up with a Honda Civic in the past 
cuzza said:
others who (cringe) couldn't even heel and toe
Is that a pre-requisite for going quickly? You make it sound like it's taught in the driving test.
I can't heel and toe and as a few people on here will verify, don't exactly hang around on track.
come on mate, you know everyone on PH is a trackday legend with a 12" penis, more money than Roman and can talk the best lap of Brands this side of Jenson
shnozz said:
come on mate, you know everyone on PH is a trackday legend with a 12" penis, more money than Roman and can talk the best lap of Brands this side of Jenson
Mine is gaffer taped to my knee but I can't heel and toe 
On topic for a sec, the S2 kit is excellent, makes the car much quieter on the road and gives much less roll (due to higher spring rates). Given the option of a car with it for the same price as without, I'd deffo go for it.
cuzza said:
others who (cringe) couldn't even heel and toe
Is that a pre-requisite for going quickly?
yes
cuzza said:
You make it sound like it's taught in the driving test.
The driving test is a simple test to check that a teenager can drive to college and back safely without hitting anything. 
I'm not saying that I'm an excellent driver or anything - these are just things that I've noticed on track days (and on the road at much lower speed actually).
With regard to heel and toe - obviously there are a whole raft of skills that add up to being a good track driver, and this is just one of them - you can do the other things right and go quite quickly on a track day, or you could heel and toe and yet be hopeless in the bends and go slowly! For example, I know a guy who is naturally talented at driving fast, and I love sitting with him on track days whenever I have the pleasure. He has a problem with his feet and thus can't heel and toe in most cars. We obviously lose out in braking, especially in the wet, but only the sort of thing that would be noticed on a stopwatch, rather than to the eye. This chap still reels in most things on track days as he's so capable in other areas. Obviously, in racing, tenths of seconds seperate the top cars and if you have any intention of doing well you have to drive close to perfectly everywhere. If you're not right on the limit when braking, or you're kicking the tail out where you shouldn't be, then you're gonna qualify in 15th place rather than 2nd. Simple as that.
RobM77 said:
With regard to heel and toe - obviously there are a whole raft of skills that add up to being a good track driver, and this is just one of them - you can do the other things right and go quite quickly on a track day, or you could heel and toe and yet be hopeless in the bends and go slowly! For example, I know a guy who is naturally talented at driving fast, and I love sitting with him on track days whenever I have the pleasure. He has a problem with his feet and thus can't heel and toe in most cars. We obviously lose out in braking, especially in the wet, but only the sort of thing that would be noticed on a stopwatch, rather than to the eye. This chap still reels in most things on track days as he's so capable in other areas. Obviously, in racing, tenths of seconds seperate the top cars and if you have any intention of doing well you have to drive close to perfectly everywhere. If you're not right on the limit when braking, or you're kicking the tail out where you shouldn't be, then you're gonna qualify in 15th place rather than 2nd. Simple as that.
So why do you lose out in braking if you're not heel and toeing?
cuzza said:
come on mate, you know everyone on PH is a trackday legend with a 12" penis, more money than Roman and can talk the best lap of Brands this side of Jenson
Aha, that's where you are going wrong. I heel and toe by using my middle leg.
Back on topic for a moment, I've just had the S2 suspension fitted to my S1; the front left damper had started to leak quite badly at about 24,000 miles and the crashes and bangs from the front end had to be heard to be believed. It still felt pretty good though; only an Audi A4 to compare it to. Only had the S2 kit on for a little over a week and the difference is quite astonishing:
Whilst the ride is definitely stiffer, it is far better controlled (hardly surprising since there was virtuelly no damping left on front right) on less than perfect tarmac and therefore more comfortable imho.
It is much quieter, the snooker ball noises banished for good.
Not yet had it properly geo'd, but the steering is much sharper, weights up nicely as you drive through a bend and the whiff of understeer seems to have gone.
And for my Fiancee, the dampers are yellow which go better with the bodywork!!!!!
My car is used daily and I haven't yet managed to get to a track, seemed like an ideal compromise to me. I opted for 135/125 (rear/front) rideheight, but I reckon I could have easily managed 120/110 and still negotiated speed bumps, ferry ramps but not the local M&S multistory.
Top Mod, don't let it put you off, if you by an S1 with a few miles running red Konis you'll only have to shell out for new suspension yourself.
Whilst the ride is definitely stiffer, it is far better controlled (hardly surprising since there was virtuelly no damping left on front right) on less than perfect tarmac and therefore more comfortable imho.
It is much quieter, the snooker ball noises banished for good.
Not yet had it properly geo'd, but the steering is much sharper, weights up nicely as you drive through a bend and the whiff of understeer seems to have gone.
And for my Fiancee, the dampers are yellow which go better with the bodywork!!!!!
My car is used daily and I haven't yet managed to get to a track, seemed like an ideal compromise to me. I opted for 135/125 (rear/front) rideheight, but I reckon I could have easily managed 120/110 and still negotiated speed bumps, ferry ramps but not the local M&S multistory.
Top Mod, don't let it put you off, if you by an S1 with a few miles running red Konis you'll only have to shell out for new suspension yourself.
cuzza said:
With regard to heel and toe - obviously there are a whole raft of skills that add up to being a good track driver, and this is just one of them - you can do the other things right and go quite quickly on a track day, or you could heel and toe and yet be hopeless in the bends and go slowly! For example, I know a guy who is naturally talented at driving fast, and I love sitting with him on track days whenever I have the pleasure. He has a problem with his feet and thus can't heel and toe in most cars. We obviously lose out in braking, especially in the wet, but only the sort of thing that would be noticed on a stopwatch, rather than to the eye. This chap still reels in most things on track days as he's so capable in other areas. Obviously, in racing, tenths of seconds seperate the top cars and if you have any intention of doing well you have to drive close to perfectly everywhere. If you're not right on the limit when braking, or you're kicking the tail out where you shouldn't be, then you're gonna qualify in 15th place rather than 2nd. Simple as that.
So why do you lose out in braking if you're not heel and toeing?
My apologies for dragging the thread off topic! My fault
If you let the clutch up without matching the revs (whince!) then there's a sudden engine braking effect at the rear wheels as the engine resists being forced to rev higher all of a sudden. Because of this additional braking at the rear wheels, you can't brake at, or even close, to the limit; because the additional braking would cause the rear wheels to lock. Even if you're not braking heavily, if you just let the clutch up without heel and toeing then this sudden extra braking force destablises the car. To look at it another way, braking and changing down without changing gear is like braking steadily then jerking the handbrake three times before the corner!
At low speeds this isn't smooth (not to mention pretty harsh for your transmission, though modern transmissions can cope), and at high speeds, especially in the wet, obviously you could get into trouble very quickly.cuzza said:
So why do you lose out in braking if you're not heel and toeing?
Before I learnt to heel-toe I used to lock up the back end of my tiger R6 kit car on downshifting for the hairpin at knockhill every lap! - not the best!
then I changed to an elise and the heel-toeing which I'd never managed to master suddenly became really easy cos the pedals are so close together!. -
if you want to practice so you'll go really fast on the track, then make every change you ever make when driving around town perfectly smooth and perfectly executed. - if you can do it in town you'll do it on the track and end up going uber-fast!
A
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