When is there too much power
Discussion
It seems that there is a new post every other day now with somebody suggesting a new / different / daft engine being bolted to the back of an Elise, however at what point is it considered that the car becomes overpowered ?
I understand that a 300+ conversions makes first gear largely redundant as you cant get enough traction?
Any big conversion seems to need A038's, some of Gearys clever ali brakes and set of Nitrons on 400/500 springs to cope with the extra power - are these at their limit with 300?
Surely at daft power levels you also have to start looking at trick aero bits too ?
I don't know nearly anything about the Honda / Audi / Duratec conversions, only that they are all tried and tested and very much established as the sensible route. Personally I can't afford a conversion, happy with my 120ish BHP....just curious
>> Edited by StuartB on Friday 3rd March 13:03
I understand that a 300+ conversions makes first gear largely redundant as you cant get enough traction?
Any big conversion seems to need A038's, some of Gearys clever ali brakes and set of Nitrons on 400/500 springs to cope with the extra power - are these at their limit with 300?
Surely at daft power levels you also have to start looking at trick aero bits too ?
I don't know nearly anything about the Honda / Audi / Duratec conversions, only that they are all tried and tested and very much established as the sensible route. Personally I can't afford a conversion, happy with my 120ish BHP....just curious
>> Edited by StuartB on Friday 3rd March 13:03
Quite right. The difference in very skilled hands is negligable. On a course set out by Walshy, the exige was 1 min 2 escs the 111R was 1 min 4 secs (on bad tyres) and the standard car was 1 min 6. Onj the road there is very little difference and the biggest differential between cars is the driver. It takes an exeptional driver to exploit a 240r or a bogie 300bhp ground based ballistic missile.
It has been quoted again and again but the best way to make the car faster is to upgrade the driver. Learn to drive and then you may be as good the car. I have only met a couple of guys who can exploit the capabilities of the car.
An upgrade to the suspension can be just as benificial as an engine upgrade.
Saying that, I would love a supercharger upgrade. As well a "balls" and skill upgrade to enable me to drive as well as the likes of Walshy, Speedyellow or Lotustuart.
It has been quoted again and again but the best way to make the car faster is to upgrade the driver. Learn to drive and then you may be as good the car. I have only met a couple of guys who can exploit the capabilities of the car.
An upgrade to the suspension can be just as benificial as an engine upgrade.
Saying that, I would love a supercharger upgrade. As well a "balls" and skill upgrade to enable me to drive as well as the likes of Walshy, Speedyellow or Lotustuart.
I learnt most of my driving skills in two very underpowered cars, a Mk1 Escort rally car with about 70hp and a Caterham roadsport with about 120hp. Less power means you have to be better driver because if you loose speed in a corner you can't aquare off the corner and just make it up on the way out.
As for how much power, there is never really too much for a chassis unless it hampers the fundamental stiffness of the chassis, what it does mean though is once you are over about 270 in an Elise/Exige the power is only an advantage when you have the car straightened up, powering out of corners etc, there is just no way to get it onto the ground effectively so requires more patience on the throttle.
As for how much power, there is never really too much for a chassis unless it hampers the fundamental stiffness of the chassis, what it does mean though is once you are over about 270 in an Elise/Exige the power is only an advantage when you have the car straightened up, powering out of corners etc, there is just no way to get it onto the ground effectively so requires more patience on the throttle.
Given my recent aquisition of the Cup 240 I think that a hike in power beyond this would be nice (in theory) but as a daily driver I just could not imagine how I would manage to retain my licence. Having spent the cash on the car I feel my next major investment will be in in getting as much driver training as I possibly can.
Can you have to much power??? well I think you can. At a certain point it is not the power to weight ratio that comes into play, it's the power to skill ratio that will make the difference.
That said if anyone is wondering if the 240 Cup or the 220S are worth it, YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS
I have not had so much fun in ages and its still being run in!!!!
Can you have to much power??? well I think you can. At a certain point it is not the power to weight ratio that comes into play, it's the power to skill ratio that will make the difference.
That said if anyone is wondering if the 240 Cup or the 220S are worth it, YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS
I have not had so much fun in ages and its still being run in!!!!
stuart1969 said:
Given my recent aquisition of the Cup 240 I think that a hike in power beyond this would be nice (in theory) but as a daily driver I just could not imagine how I would manage to retain my licence. Having spent the cash on the car I feel my next major investment will be in in getting as much driver training as I possibly can.
Can you have to much power??? well I think you can. At a certain point it is not the power to weight ratio that comes into play, it's the power to skill ratio that will make the difference.
That said if anyone is wondering if the 240 Cup or the 220S are worth it, YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS
I have not had so much fun in ages and its still being run in!!!!
I wouldnt trade my 111R for the world. But the smile on the face of a guy with a 120bhp "standard" car is just as big as a 111R.
The incredible ability of the Elise to put a big smile on your face is not dependent on power, engine or suspension set up. It is dependent upon your involvement and feel for the road or circuit.
An interesting question. I think it largely depends on how the power is delivered and the preferences/skills of the driver, as theoretically the driver has the choice to use as much or as little power as he or she wants, providing it can be delivered in a predictable way.
I don't think many Elise or Caterham owners would disagree that a Caterham chassis copes with power less well than an Elise. The Elise has fully independant suspension (Caterham is de-dion at the rear), fantastic wheel control (Lotus - they are magicians when it comes to ride and handling, Caterham are merely very good) and a mid engined layout (Caterham is front engined) giving great traction. Now, if a Caterham can handle 500bhp/tonne (R500) before people say it is starting to get too much, there's no reason I can see why an Elise couldn't handle 500bhp/tonne, or close to 500bhp and still be more driveable than an R500.
I've driven a Caterham R300 (331bhp/tonne) on a pouring wet day (it was actually thundering) and it was fine, providing you were careful, so I think 300bhp in an Elise (330bhp/tonne) would be fine.
I used to own a Caterham VVC and now own an Elise S2 111S. The two cars share the same engine, and whilst they're obviously worlds apart in performance due to weight, the actual power getting down couldn't be more different between the two cars. The Elise has bags of grip, even out of tight turns, whereas you could wag the Caterham's tail all over the place at almost any speed up to 40mph in the dry. In tight turns and roundabouts I used to use the throttle in the Caterham to steer it much as the steering in fact.
So, my answer is probably theoretically around 600bhp, but of course you'd never get this power with sensible torque out of an engine light enough to keep the Elise's dynamics, which are the main selling point of the car.
>> Edited by RobM77 on Friday 3rd March 15:09
I don't think many Elise or Caterham owners would disagree that a Caterham chassis copes with power less well than an Elise. The Elise has fully independant suspension (Caterham is de-dion at the rear), fantastic wheel control (Lotus - they are magicians when it comes to ride and handling, Caterham are merely very good) and a mid engined layout (Caterham is front engined) giving great traction. Now, if a Caterham can handle 500bhp/tonne (R500) before people say it is starting to get too much, there's no reason I can see why an Elise couldn't handle 500bhp/tonne, or close to 500bhp and still be more driveable than an R500.
I've driven a Caterham R300 (331bhp/tonne) on a pouring wet day (it was actually thundering) and it was fine, providing you were careful, so I think 300bhp in an Elise (330bhp/tonne) would be fine.
I used to own a Caterham VVC and now own an Elise S2 111S. The two cars share the same engine, and whilst they're obviously worlds apart in performance due to weight, the actual power getting down couldn't be more different between the two cars. The Elise has bags of grip, even out of tight turns, whereas you could wag the Caterham's tail all over the place at almost any speed up to 40mph in the dry. In tight turns and roundabouts I used to use the throttle in the Caterham to steer it much as the steering in fact.
So, my answer is probably theoretically around 600bhp, but of course you'd never get this power with sensible torque out of an engine light enough to keep the Elise's dynamics, which are the main selling point of the car.
>> Edited by RobM77 on Friday 3rd March 15:09
Fabulous question! - I've been thinking about upping my power recently, but i'm starting to figure that since the VAST majority of my driving is done on the roads. (arn't scotland's roads wonderful!) i'd probably have LESS fun with more power.
- i still always think back to my old 75bhp fiesta which i used to commute over the top of the cairngorm mountains when i was living in Aberdeen and working in Inverness, and it was amazing fun to drive BECAUSE it had sod all power! - so you could rag the tits off it all day long without getting into big trouble.
My last car was a 300bhp per tonne tiger R6 (lotus seven type thing) and although unbelievable on the track, and able to put down ALL it's power with ease, you could never use all its power on the road and cos it had the ability to wag the back end so easily at anything up to 50mph, you had to hold back a bit more when on the road in the dry, and had to be SOOOO careful in the wet
. - that's one of the reasons i changed to an elise.
so in my opinion if you want a track car, the extra horse is well worth it, but for the road, less power can be a LOT more fun!
can i be pedantic for a minute with Robm77 - i DO agree that the elise copes with power better than a caterham or other seven, but on the track de-dion is often better than fully independent rear sus, as it gives more even tyre contact on heavy cornering, and catehams etc are mid engined too. - just front mid instead of rear mid.
Utterly irrelevent, or course, cos i agree with most of your points. - lotus ARE the handling gods, i can drive twisty roads fast in the elise which would have had my R6 pinging off into the forrest!
A
- i still always think back to my old 75bhp fiesta which i used to commute over the top of the cairngorm mountains when i was living in Aberdeen and working in Inverness, and it was amazing fun to drive BECAUSE it had sod all power! - so you could rag the tits off it all day long without getting into big trouble.
My last car was a 300bhp per tonne tiger R6 (lotus seven type thing) and although unbelievable on the track, and able to put down ALL it's power with ease, you could never use all its power on the road and cos it had the ability to wag the back end so easily at anything up to 50mph, you had to hold back a bit more when on the road in the dry, and had to be SOOOO careful in the wet
. - that's one of the reasons i changed to an elise.
so in my opinion if you want a track car, the extra horse is well worth it, but for the road, less power can be a LOT more fun!
can i be pedantic for a minute with Robm77 - i DO agree that the elise copes with power better than a caterham or other seven, but on the track de-dion is often better than fully independent rear sus, as it gives more even tyre contact on heavy cornering, and catehams etc are mid engined too. - just front mid instead of rear mid.
Utterly irrelevent, or course, cos i agree with most of your points. - lotus ARE the handling gods, i can drive twisty roads fast in the elise which would have had my R6 pinging off into the forrest!
A
S Works said:
Some great answers here. It all boils down to the driver in the end. When you run out of skill and the car can keep going, I think you've got too much power.
Absolutely - The question I asked though was more about the limitations of the vehicle rather than the driver (I think I was going on the blind assumption that we have an F1 driver in the seat)
There must be a point where the power > traction & grip and you end up having to drive well within the cars power limits to actually get the power down
No doubt it isn't possible to answer the question with any degree of accuracy - especially given the human variable - but at 400-500 BHP/tonne and whatever the torque figures are, is that at the reasonable limit? is there any point in trying to extend it 50/100/200 ?
There are 2 points being made here. The basic answer to the question is the Elise chassis can deal with mega power and engines. Lotus themselvs have put a V10 from a viper in a 'Liz, then gone racing. The chassis is very capable. Walshy is putting a supercharged V8 whighing 75k and producing 550 bhp.
The other point being made is from the driver point of view. How much power do you actually need and can you actually use this on the road. The honest answer is the Elise is very capable and very quick in the right hands even in the "basic" 120 bhp form. You can go all the way in standard cars to 240bhp and still have a huge smile. The road reality is that it is the skill of the driver that makes the difference not the amount of power. To see this in action you have to watch drivers like M1800S, Speedyellow, hbumbhardt, nikos etc on the track.
The other point being made is from the driver point of view. How much power do you actually need and can you actually use this on the road. The honest answer is the Elise is very capable and very quick in the right hands even in the "basic" 120 bhp form. You can go all the way in standard cars to 240bhp and still have a huge smile. The road reality is that it is the skill of the driver that makes the difference not the amount of power. To see this in action you have to watch drivers like M1800S, Speedyellow, hbumbhardt, nikos etc on the track.
300bhp is OK....but 1st gear is a struggle.
The chassis itself could take 500-600bhp easy....the problem is tyres...you really want to be getting some wide rubber on there to have a chance of putting it down
300bhp is fine with decent rubber.....your cornering speeds dont change, they are just the same as any other well set-up Elise on a decent tyre/suspension combo...its just your time between corners gets shorter.
Your brakes will be fine too with Pagids/ally bells etc...even if you arrive 20mph faster they cope just fine.
I think with 400bhp youd need to widen up the front and rear track, fit some wider wheels n tyres...but thats about it really
As for actually using it - well I enjoy the acceleration on the road (Ive always had superbikes so its nothing new) but on track its down to driver - Im certainly only average on track and much less powerful cars still come past...I still have fun though learning and improving which is what its about...I have no intention to be a racing driver and I dont have a real competitive streak in me to want to do trackdays every weekend and be the fastest
....but who cares - its about having fun and you can have just as much in a 120bhp Elise as a 300bhp one !
The chassis itself could take 500-600bhp easy....the problem is tyres...you really want to be getting some wide rubber on there to have a chance of putting it down
300bhp is fine with decent rubber.....your cornering speeds dont change, they are just the same as any other well set-up Elise on a decent tyre/suspension combo...its just your time between corners gets shorter.
Your brakes will be fine too with Pagids/ally bells etc...even if you arrive 20mph faster they cope just fine.
I think with 400bhp youd need to widen up the front and rear track, fit some wider wheels n tyres...but thats about it really
As for actually using it - well I enjoy the acceleration on the road (Ive always had superbikes so its nothing new) but on track its down to driver - Im certainly only average on track and much less powerful cars still come past...I still have fun though learning and improving which is what its about...I have no intention to be a racing driver and I dont have a real competitive streak in me to want to do trackdays every weekend and be the fastest
....but who cares - its about having fun and you can have just as much in a 120bhp Elise as a 300bhp one !Something I'd like to add as well is that it isn't all about who's quickest, it is about what you want as a driver. If you like that kick in the back, then by all means, go and get a 400bhp Elise; no matter if you're Michael Schumacher or not (so long as you're sensible enough to let it get you into trouble on the road). Personally, for the road, I'm happy with my paltry 160bhp as to me my Elise is about a pure driving experience rather than sheer power. Been there done that with the Caterham and to be honest I'm happier than I could ever hope to be to get to drive a pure driver's car everyday to work and back - that's all I'll ever want. If, one day, I have enough money for a dedicated track day car, or upgrade the humble racing Metro to something fruitier to race, then I'll be after more power - but just for the track really. I spend most of my time on the road stuck behind numpties doing 42mph, and at that speed, it is just the unique Elise experience that I need, plus or minus a big engine in the back - it's just the Elise that matters!
The Elise is fine with 300bhp, perfectly drivable and with a modicum of throttle control you can use 1st gear. That said it would be a touch hairy in an absolutely standard car with absolutely standard setup.
Assuming a half decent setup the car could cope with another 100bhp with not too much trouble I would have though. You would probably want to improve the aero for better traction but with the Elise being nearly mid engined you would still get decent drive out of the corners.
There was a mention of chassis stiffness… that certainly wouldn’t be the limiting factor although the rear subframe isn’t great under heavy load.
Personally I find the 300bhp Honda easier on track than the 220bhp car because you can adjust the attitude of the car with the throttle so well.
Assuming a half decent setup the car could cope with another 100bhp with not too much trouble I would have though. You would probably want to improve the aero for better traction but with the Elise being nearly mid engined you would still get decent drive out of the corners.
There was a mention of chassis stiffness… that certainly wouldn’t be the limiting factor although the rear subframe isn’t great under heavy load.
Personally I find the 300bhp Honda easier on track than the 220bhp car because you can adjust the attitude of the car with the throttle so well.
As said above, the chassis itself id fine, the issues are with the suspension joints and the subframe.
300Bhp with no changes to the rear end is somewhat interesting, you have enough power to deform the wishbone bushes on acceleration to the point where the wheels are moving about quite a bit, do this on a typical road surface, and it's somewhat hard work to keep it in a straight line.
in terms of limits on power, assuming this can be done without hikeing the weight up, then yes, you could probably get the car to cope with ~500+, although this in itself is not trivial, the rear end would have to be completely re-designed to take it (ALA GT-1 or 300RR)
300Bhp with no changes to the rear end is somewhat interesting, you have enough power to deform the wishbone bushes on acceleration to the point where the wheels are moving about quite a bit, do this on a typical road surface, and it's somewhat hard work to keep it in a straight line.
in terms of limits on power, assuming this can be done without hikeing the weight up, then yes, you could probably get the car to cope with ~500+, although this in itself is not trivial, the rear end would have to be completely re-designed to take it (ALA GT-1 or 300RR)
randy said:
The Elise is fine with 300bhp, perfectly drivable and with a modicum of throttle control you can use 1st gear. That said it would be a touch hairy in an absolutely standard car with absolutely standard setup.
Randy - I take it this means you and Simon are NOT working on a way to get your Nissan Group C engine into the elise?
Jokes aside, the 220 bhp Honda conversion is all I would likely ever need.
RobM77 said:
Something I'd like to add as well is that it isn't all about who's quickest, it is about what you want as a driver. If you like that kick in the back, then by all means, go and get a 400bhp Elise; no matter if you're Michael Schumacher or not (so long as you're sensible enough to let it get you into trouble on the road). Personally, for the road, I'm happy with my paltry 160bhp as to me my Elise is about a pure driving experience rather than sheer power. Been there done that with the Caterham and to be honest I'm happier than I could ever hope to be to get to drive a pure driver's car everyday to work and back - that's all I'll ever want. If, one day, I have enough money for a dedicated track day car, or upgrade the humble racing Metro to something fruitier to race, then I'll be after more power - but just for the track really. I spend most of my time on the road stuck behind numpties doing 42mph, and at that speed, it is just the unique Elise experience that I need, plus or minus a big engine in the back - it's just the Elise that matters!
I'd say what you mention applies to the track as well.
It's how you like the car to drive.
I can see myself how 400 BHP would be interesting, but I fear it'd be difficult not to get lazy on the corners with that. It'd be too easy.
There are some people that aren't looking for a shove in the seat, but more like a flowing line. To these, a lower powered and lighter car would be better.
But going back to the original question... when somebody in a lower powered car overtakes you!
shangani said:
The Elise is fine with 300bhp, perfectly drivable and with a modicum of throttle control you can use 1st gear. That said it would be a touch hairy in an absolutely standard car with absolutely standard setup.
Randy - I take it this means you and Simon are NOT working on a way to get your Nissan Group C engine into the elise?
Nah... we are too busy working out how to squeeze it into a 540kg Juno. 2000bhp per ton gets my vote
Excellent, even if you are joking. The Juno's seem to be producing some astonishing lap times - quite a bit faster than the radicals iirc. (though that was with 300 odd bhp) I heard that the Juno produces enough downforce to stick itself to the ceiling at speeds of over 140 mph. Impressive. At least you and Simon know how to drive that sort of car. When you stick a pax seat in your Nissan, I want a pax lap. I promise to wear a diaper.
When it comes to power, I know when I am out of my depth. N/A honda, job done!
>> Edited by shangani on Saturday 4th March 19:15
When it comes to power, I know when I am out of my depth. N/A honda, job done!
>> Edited by shangani on Saturday 4th March 19:15
Sticking a Juno to the roof is no big deal, they only weigh 540kg. Consider that in high downforce trim the Datsuns can make over 4000kgs of downforce!! That said they weigh 950kg so need all the help they can get.
Agreed that the N/A Honda makes for a great car but the power thing can be deceptive. With the right chassis high bhp figures can be very unintimidating, for example my old Spice with 600bhp was probably the easiest car I have ever driven.
Agreed that the N/A Honda makes for a great car but the power thing can be deceptive. With the right chassis high bhp figures can be very unintimidating, for example my old Spice with 600bhp was probably the easiest car I have ever driven.
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