RE: Another car pool lane opens
Monday 20th March 2006
Will car pooling solve this?As the Transport Department today trumpets the arrival of a mile-long car pooling lane on the M606 and M62 at a cost of some £25 million, we should remind ourselves that a study into car pool lanes in the US has found that they can increase accidents. In other words, they may or may not increase motorway capacity but at the cost of lowered safety.
Another car pool lane opens
But will the £25m scheme cause crashes?
Will car pooling solve this?
A year ago, the Texas Transportation Institute found that car pool lanes that aren't separated from the rest of the carriageway by a physical barrier experience an increase in accidents of between 41 and 56 per cent. The cause is simple: scarcer car pool lane traffic is often travelling faster than that in the adjacent lanes. That's especially true at peak times, when the differential may be between 21 and 35mph.
When a driver moves into the car pool lane, many have misjudged it and been rear-ended by a fast-moving vehicle that's unable to slow down in time.
Now this may be a purely US phenomenon, but it's worth asking the Transport Minister if this has been considered when the car pooling initiative was decided upon.
Discussion
Stupid thing is, what if you're on your way to pick up a couple of business colleagues or something? Will you be subject to delays, congestion and road rage on the way there but not on the way back, just because the purpose of your journey didn't fit the New Labour How To Think guidebook?
Another simplistic and expensive scheme that will doubtlessly fail.
They've forgotten another thing about the US 'Carpool lane' - the clue's in the title: the 'Carpool' is a scheme run by employers as an organised carshare system for their employees, and the lanes are placed to and from business communities that operate such a scheme.
But with this in the UK, unless you're in a company that operates the scheme, it'll just mean another big, fat, empty lane, more congestion, more emissions and a boom in the inflatables industry.
But that's probably what MPs want, so they can point at it and make comments about the inefficiency of the car compared to that paragon of 'green', the bus...
Another simplistic and expensive scheme that will doubtlessly fail.
They've forgotten another thing about the US 'Carpool lane' - the clue's in the title: the 'Carpool' is a scheme run by employers as an organised carshare system for their employees, and the lanes are placed to and from business communities that operate such a scheme.
But with this in the UK, unless you're in a company that operates the scheme, it'll just mean another big, fat, empty lane, more congestion, more emissions and a boom in the inflatables industry.
But that's probably what MPs want, so they can point at it and make comments about the inefficiency of the car compared to that paragon of 'green', the bus...
They arent carpool lanes in the US.
They are HOV lanes - High occupancy vehicle.
Some require a minimum of two people, some three. Its not at all dependant on a work scheme, though these are encouraged by employers for environmental reasons (this is more prevalent on the west coast than east, admittedly)
They are a bloody great idea in the States but critically because there are 5 other lanes to choose from if you dont have the required number of passengers, a luxury which we in the UK dont have.
They are HOV lanes - High occupancy vehicle.
Some require a minimum of two people, some three. Its not at all dependant on a work scheme, though these are encouraged by employers for environmental reasons (this is more prevalent on the west coast than east, admittedly)
They are a bloody great idea in the States but critically because there are 5 other lanes to choose from if you dont have the required number of passengers, a luxury which we in the UK dont have.
I started thinking about the wider ramifications of this type of road use policy and came up with the following... It started quite good, but then spiralled into disaster. Maybe the government didnt follow through with their thinking:
1. Mums will be able to take their 2.4 kids to school quicker in their SUV's so less emmissions from them in jams = Good thing
2. The rest of us will get stuck behind an SUV in traffic one mum has dropped said 2.4 kids off at school = Bad thing
3. Big cars have more potential for passanges, therefore more chance of being rear ended by a big car when pulling into the special lane. Now in America this is not a problem as you will most likely be driving a big block Dodge Ram pick up truck with 10' of impact absorbing flat bed behind you, and a tonne of iron V8 ahead. In the UK however the victim will most likely be the poor mum and school children who cant afford the SUV. So more kids will die, people will buy bigger SUV's to keep their offspring protected then the planet will die. All because of a badly thought through multiple occupancy lane. = Disaster!
>> Edited by oagent on Monday 20th March 13:54
1. Mums will be able to take their 2.4 kids to school quicker in their SUV's so less emmissions from them in jams = Good thing
2. The rest of us will get stuck behind an SUV in traffic one mum has dropped said 2.4 kids off at school = Bad thing
3. Big cars have more potential for passanges, therefore more chance of being rear ended by a big car when pulling into the special lane. Now in America this is not a problem as you will most likely be driving a big block Dodge Ram pick up truck with 10' of impact absorbing flat bed behind you, and a tonne of iron V8 ahead. In the UK however the victim will most likely be the poor mum and school children who cant afford the SUV. So more kids will die, people will buy bigger SUV's to keep their offspring protected then the planet will die. All because of a badly thought through multiple occupancy lane. = Disaster!
>> Edited by oagent on Monday 20th March 13:54
polus said:
I heard on the radio that; cars release half as much C02 and are twice as efficient if two people are in them
I dont know why I am answering this but I will anyway,
Its obviously based on figures per person.
This is just another example of figures being put in such a way, even though they are still the same.
Being a retired person (by the way that doesn't mean I am a brain dead road clogging old git who drives at 40mph on a 70 limit) but I do observe the speed limits,(most of the time!) setting my cruise control to suit. Hence I have a clean licence after driving for 54 years. My wife and I are usually in the car together now and so would be within our rights to drive on these lanes. However If I am driving at 70 mph on this motorway, from experience I know people in a hurry are going to want to pass as the average speed is well above 70. So although I would be the innocent law abiding motorist, I could inevitably cause an accident because an impatient driver will try to overtake by moving into a lane of, possibly, slower moving traffic. I think the government should reconsider this ridiculous idea. It is surely going to cause more accidents.
>> Edited by KennyB on Monday 20th March 15:47
>> Edited by KennyB on Monday 20th March 15:47
polus said:
I heard on the radio that; cars release half as much C02 and are twice as efficient if two people are in them
Interestingly enough, when I was working for the same company as my Dad (several years ago) he threatened to charge me the increase in fuel costs for his commute when taking me with him - unfortunately the car was actually more efficient with the two of us in it
I am intrigued to know what difference a 1 mile stretch of a single lane is likely to make. I understand the stretch to be "upgraded" is the mile from the M606 leading on to the M62. I assume that is FROM Bradford. I wonder who is likely to benefit from this - and when.
The other stretch suggested on the M1 from J11 (Luton) to the M25 is much easier to see as beneficial - that stretch is invariably at a standstill on most weekday mornings and, at some 23 miles, likely to help the congestion.
My main worry is the overtaking issue. I have a feeling that our American cousins might be more inclined to sit in line whilst their driving to work but I fear there are many English maniacs who might be less inclined to do so. Overtaking in the "dedicated" lane means pulling in to the (potentailly) slower lane next door. That does raise a point - I don't know if they are proposing to put this dedicated lane on the left or right.
The other stretch suggested on the M1 from J11 (Luton) to the M25 is much easier to see as beneficial - that stretch is invariably at a standstill on most weekday mornings and, at some 23 miles, likely to help the congestion.
My main worry is the overtaking issue. I have a feeling that our American cousins might be more inclined to sit in line whilst their driving to work but I fear there are many English maniacs who might be less inclined to do so. Overtaking in the "dedicated" lane means pulling in to the (potentailly) slower lane next door. That does raise a point - I don't know if they are proposing to put this dedicated lane on the left or right.
There's one of these on the Bristol ring Road. The whole road only has 2 lanes and one is a 2+ lane. Grrrr...
I don't understand the thinking behind them either. Picture the scene:
Person A drives from home to collect colleague, Person B
Persons A and B can now use the carpool lane to get to work - hooray!
Person A needs to leave work earlier than Person B due to unforeseen circumstances.
Person B is now stuffed.
Now, how many times do you actually get to leave work within 30 minutes of when you planned? I reckon for many people, the loss of flexibility is not worth the benefit of the 2+ lane.
I don't understand the thinking behind them either. Picture the scene:
Person A drives from home to collect colleague, Person B
Persons A and B can now use the carpool lane to get to work - hooray!
Person A needs to leave work earlier than Person B due to unforeseen circumstances.
Person B is now stuffed.
Now, how many times do you actually get to leave work within 30 minutes of when you planned? I reckon for many people, the loss of flexibility is not worth the benefit of the 2+ lane.
jackass said:
I heard on the radio that; cars release half as much C02 and are twice as efficient if two people are in them
Interestingly enough, when I was working for the same company as my Dad (several years ago) he threatened to charge me the increase in fuel costs for his commute when taking me with him - unfortunately the car was actually more efficient with the two of us in it
When I owned my MX5, my car was 50% efficient in terms of occupants moved during my commute to work. In my Celica it now only 25% efficient, and if I buy a Fiesta ST, it will be 20% efficient. Luckily I don't use the wife's Galaxy for work too often.
someone said:
When a driver moves into the car pool lane, many have misjudged it and been rear-ended by a fast-moving vehicle that's unable to slow down in time. Now this may be a purely US phenomenon, but it's worth asking the Transport Minister if this has been considered when the car pooling initiative was decided upon.
Don't you see, this is the perfect excuse to throw in another 'road safety initiative'. Speed cameras every 1/4 mile!!
When will this country learn that cameras aren't the solution, but actually another cause for accidents through inattention, which IIRC is the biggest cause of RTAs on our roads at present (speeding was eighth on the list)! Again, IIRC, the biggest group of people caught with speeding offences are middle-age businessmen who have full NCB, rely on their cars for work and have never had an accident - the same group who won't benefit from this car-pool lane!!! I call for compulsory retesting every five years, tougher driving tests, and more of the growing tax we pay each year spent on things like 'road safety' campaigns for children, decent roads and design improvements (not traffic lights/speed cameras) at blackspots.
We wouldn't need such stupid schemes such as these if all the idiots were banned from the roads, we had a proper transport system (something the rest of Europe has managed to have for years). A lane for buses, a lane for car pooling, and a lane for MPs just isn't right (sorry, just looking into my crystal ball again)!
I'm annoyed.
What is the plan a mile up the road when the 'pool' lane ends?? Is it going to be like most bus lanes and just merge back in with the rest of the traffic??? - that will work
As already ready said, it may work in the states but the lanes out there tend to last more than a mile and there is already several lanes on the highway. They tend not to use traffic lights at every junction (which is the looks to be the latest fashion over here) - why is this, traffic lights on a roundabout - sort of goes against the idea of a roundabout really. You get hold up while people Q down the inside lane for the lights (and ofcourse the other lanes while peolple push in) to get off and then hold ups while long 'bathces' of cars come along the on slip to join.
Can't understand why all these expensive, not going to work plans get the green light while just a good look at what we've already got will flag up items that could be sorted straight away at mininum cost and effort, uno thing like lane hogs - that in its self would make most motorways 3 lane instead of 2. If new roads need building, then why not stack 'em like they do in the states???
As already ready said, it may work in the states but the lanes out there tend to last more than a mile and there is already several lanes on the highway. They tend not to use traffic lights at every junction (which is the looks to be the latest fashion over here) - why is this, traffic lights on a roundabout - sort of goes against the idea of a roundabout really. You get hold up while people Q down the inside lane for the lights (and ofcourse the other lanes while peolple push in) to get off and then hold ups while long 'bathces' of cars come along the on slip to join. Can't understand why all these expensive, not going to work plans get the green light while just a good look at what we've already got will flag up items that could be sorted straight away at mininum cost and effort, uno thing like lane hogs - that in its self would make most motorways 3 lane instead of 2. If new roads need building, then why not stack 'em like they do in the states???
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