Question: High speed medical type journeys & the law
Discussion
Also posted in G.G.
Have found myself having a bit of a dilema as how best to proceed with this, thought I'd put it to the immensely knowledgeable PH collective. Any half sensible advice gratefully recieved.
Situation:
A close friend is awaiting an imminant organ transplant & she has asked me to take her to the hospital when the 'call comes'.She lives in Bristol, her specialist & the hospital where the operation will take place are in Hampstead London.
This could happen at pretty much anytime & once the call comes she has a window of 3 hours (before the organ deteriorates) to get to the hospital.
Hospital will not provide ambulance or similar.
I am more than happy to help out here but unless said call comes in the middle of the night when the M4 & London are comparatively fairly empty I don't have much chance in making it at [cough] normal speeds, in the 3 hr period (my house to hers is a good 30 mins too).
So a fairly high speed jaunt looks to be in order.
What to do about scameras etc?:
Obviously I need to minimise 'damage' to my driving license.
Is there any sort of special dispensation from traffic police for a high speed journey of this type?
Could I reasonably ask for some kind of relayed escort?
It doesn't help that I don't have a set date/time to give traff pol etc.
Any one know how best to proceed with this?
Many thanks
Matt
p.s. sorry for the long post
>> Edited by tuttle on Monday 27th March 14:10
Have found myself having a bit of a dilema as how best to proceed with this, thought I'd put it to the immensely knowledgeable PH collective. Any half sensible advice gratefully recieved.
Situation:
A close friend is awaiting an imminant organ transplant & she has asked me to take her to the hospital when the 'call comes'.She lives in Bristol, her specialist & the hospital where the operation will take place are in Hampstead London.
This could happen at pretty much anytime & once the call comes she has a window of 3 hours (before the organ deteriorates) to get to the hospital.
Hospital will not provide ambulance or similar.
I am more than happy to help out here but unless said call comes in the middle of the night when the M4 & London are comparatively fairly empty I don't have much chance in making it at [cough] normal speeds, in the 3 hr period (my house to hers is a good 30 mins too).
So a fairly high speed jaunt looks to be in order.
What to do about scameras etc?:
Obviously I need to minimise 'damage' to my driving license.
Is there any sort of special dispensation from traffic police for a high speed journey of this type?
Could I reasonably ask for some kind of relayed escort?
It doesn't help that I don't have a set date/time to give traff pol etc.
Any one know how best to proceed with this?
Many thanks
Matt
p.s. sorry for the long post
>> Edited by tuttle on Monday 27th March 14:10
If its during the day, you will need luck on your side to get there in time.
If its at night though, drive safely, and I hope luck is with you. I am doubtful of any special arrangement being granted especially in the current anti-speed climate. If you stick just under the 96mph point on the motorway, the worst that can happen is that the officer can give you a 3 point and £60. Most likely they would just let you on your way in the circumstances, but even if they dont, in the scheme of things the 3 points would be a small price to pay IMHO, plus the chances of being stopped at night for 'minor' speed infringements is statistically very small.
Good luck!
If its at night though, drive safely, and I hope luck is with you. I am doubtful of any special arrangement being granted especially in the current anti-speed climate. If you stick just under the 96mph point on the motorway, the worst that can happen is that the officer can give you a 3 point and £60. Most likely they would just let you on your way in the circumstances, but even if they dont, in the scheme of things the 3 points would be a small price to pay IMHO, plus the chances of being stopped at night for 'minor' speed infringements is statistically very small.
Good luck!
How imminent is imminent?
At night you may get lucky with traffpol. During the day you will have little or no chance.
There would be no special arrangement.
With the time window being relativly small would it not be an idea to stay well within the 3 hrs of london? Regardless of the speed issue but the pressure you will be under to get there in time will be immense and will affect your driving ability.
Better to stay somewhere an easy hour away than a tight 3 hrs away!
At night you may get lucky with traffpol. During the day you will have little or no chance.
There would be no special arrangement.
With the time window being relativly small would it not be an idea to stay well within the 3 hrs of london? Regardless of the speed issue but the pressure you will be under to get there in time will be immense and will affect your driving ability.
Better to stay somewhere an easy hour away than a tight 3 hrs away!
Hmmmmm
Sticky wicket at best
If you do get scammed or stopped you *MAY* be able to claim the same exemption for exceeding the speed limit that the emergency services do (you may be able to get a decent brief to argue that you were using your vehicle for ambulance purposes and therefore the statutory provision imposing the speed limit would not apply, as observance of the provision would hinder the use of the vehicle on that occasion) but I'd get some proper advice first if you're thinking about this.
Would the local NHS trust be willing to provide an ambulance? Worth asking the question. If not, try the local Red Cross or St John; we (Red Cross) do patient transport work all the time, not sure about using the blue light disco on a transfer but again worth asking.
All the best and hope it works out OK for your mate.
Sticky wicket at best
If you do get scammed or stopped you *MAY* be able to claim the same exemption for exceeding the speed limit that the emergency services do (you may be able to get a decent brief to argue that you were using your vehicle for ambulance purposes and therefore the statutory provision imposing the speed limit would not apply, as observance of the provision would hinder the use of the vehicle on that occasion) but I'd get some proper advice first if you're thinking about this.
Would the local NHS trust be willing to provide an ambulance? Worth asking the question. If not, try the local Red Cross or St John; we (Red Cross) do patient transport work all the time, not sure about using the blue light disco on a transfer but again worth asking.
All the best and hope it works out OK for your mate.
A few thoughts:
There are certain exemptions for ambulances, and an ambulance can be any vehicle carrying a sick person. However it's a bit iffy - would she qualify as being sick? (Cue a big discussion)
It's one thing being caught out, and not having time to think, but quite another to pre-plan something like this. I think the lack of 'sudden-ness' of the this situation would work against you (in court)
Suppose you crashed? Your insurance company would have a fit if they found out (and they would, if it was serious-ish).
At certain times of the day, you haven't got much chance of doing the journey in the time available anyway. People get in the way of fully lit and sirened police cars, so you've got no chance of cutting through the traffic.
There are certain exemptions for ambulances, and an ambulance can be any vehicle carrying a sick person. However it's a bit iffy - would she qualify as being sick? (Cue a big discussion)
It's one thing being caught out, and not having time to think, but quite another to pre-plan something like this. I think the lack of 'sudden-ness' of the this situation would work against you (in court)
Suppose you crashed? Your insurance company would have a fit if they found out (and they would, if it was serious-ish).
At certain times of the day, you haven't got much chance of doing the journey in the time available anyway. People get in the way of fully lit and sirened police cars, so you've got no chance of cutting through the traffic.
tuttle said:
A close friend is awaiting an imminant organ transplant & she has asked me to take her to the hospital when the 'call comes'.She lives in Bristol, her specialist & the hospital where the operation will take place are in Hampstead London.
This could happen at pretty much anytime & once the call comes she has a window of 3 hours (before the organ deteriorates) to get to the hospital.
Hospital will not provide ambulance or similar.
Could the op not be carried out in Bristol? If so, couldn't the organ be flown in?
Speak with your local Head of Plod. He MAY be able to assist with a Humanitarian Escort under those circumstances but the unpredictabilty of when required may prevent resources being allocated.
Is there an Air Ambulance operating in your area?. We have one in the North East that is run entirely by charity so no connection with NHS.
Presume you have done a dummy run obeying all speed limits? What is the timing like? Any slack? It will no doubt be mentioned that far better to get the patient to Hospital within the speed limits than lose her by inappropriate speed.
Hope everything turns out OK
dvd
Is there an Air Ambulance operating in your area?. We have one in the North East that is run entirely by charity so no connection with NHS.
Presume you have done a dummy run obeying all speed limits? What is the timing like? Any slack? It will no doubt be mentioned that far better to get the patient to Hospital within the speed limits than lose her by inappropriate speed.
Hope everything turns out OK
dvd
Why not go and have a friendly word with your local plod. Maybe two or three of their traffic officers would offer to help, depending on who was not on-shift at the time, using a civilian car with a magnetically fixed blue light. It would be good publicity for them and you would then be guaranteed to get there on time.
My niece is currently awaiting her second liver transplant and has a similar problem. However, her partner's view is that he really doesn't care about the points or risk of disqual so long as he gets her there in time for her to have some chance of living in the long term. That's how serious her condition is.
One has to ask what sort of society we have if those trying to overcome life threatening conditions have to be at further risk due to a wish from some zealots to put points onto licences and collect some cash.
If necessary just 'go-for-it' and argue the consequences later. Think what the Daily Mail would make of it if prosecution followed.
My niece is currently awaiting her second liver transplant and has a similar problem. However, her partner's view is that he really doesn't care about the points or risk of disqual so long as he gets her there in time for her to have some chance of living in the long term. That's how serious her condition is.
One has to ask what sort of society we have if those trying to overcome life threatening conditions have to be at further risk due to a wish from some zealots to put points onto licences and collect some cash.
If necessary just 'go-for-it' and argue the consequences later. Think what the Daily Mail would make of it if prosecution followed.
pdV6 said:
Could the op not be carried out in Bristol? If so, couldn't the organ be flown in?
You'd think so, wouldn't you. Esp if it's being flown from somewhere else.
I'm a bit peeved at 'the system' myself.
Like some have mentioned, time of day is going to be critical here. I'm confident that I can do this in time & safely, if it were night-time.
Think I'll contact local ambulance/St Johns etc services, see what their take is. I'm loath to even approach traff pol' unless I have something concrete because before I know it I'll end up getting all my details taken & myself cautioned with something.
Thanks all
It's all starting to sound a bit dramatic
>> Edited by tuttle on Monday 27th March 16:04
Cooperman said:
Why not go and have a friendly word with your local plod. Maybe two or three of their traffic officers would offer to help, depending on who was not on-shift at the time, using a civilian car with a magnetically fixed blue light. It would be good publicity for them and you would then be guaranteed to get there on time.
It would be great publicity when they get kicked out of the Police.
Cooperman said:
My niece is currently awaiting her second liver transplant and has a similar problem. However, her partner's view is that he really doesn't care about the points or risk of disqual so long as he gets her there in time for her to have some chance of living in the long term. That's how serious her condition is.
You have to wonder about the wisdom of driving under such stress.
Cooperman said:
One has to ask what sort of society we have if those trying to overcome life threatening conditions have to be at further risk due to a wish from some zealots to put points onto licences and collect some cash.
Well, there are other reasons for speed limits, apart from simple revenue raising.
Cooperman said:
If necessary just 'go-for-it' and argue the consequences later. Think what the Daily Mail would make of it if prosecution followed.
The Daily Mail would be the first to want to string you up if something went wrong.
With regards to the emergency exemption rule, didn't I read on here that transporting a doner organ was an urgency, not an emergency so doesn't count? Would this be the same situation for the recipient?
Other than that isn't it a shame that the concensus seems to be that obeying petty laws* is more important than the health (life?) of your friend?
*I am happy to defend the statement "petty laws" in relation to breaking the speed limit, but this thread is not the place.
Other than that isn't it a shame that the concensus seems to be that obeying petty laws* is more important than the health (life?) of your friend?
*I am happy to defend the statement "petty laws" in relation to breaking the speed limit, but this thread is not the place.
deva link said:
Why not go and have a friendly word with your local plod. Maybe two or three of their traffic officers would offer to help, depending on who was not on-shift at the time, using a civilian car with a magnetically fixed blue light. It would be good publicity for them and you would then be guaranteed to get there on time.
It would be great publicity when they get kicked out of the Police.
And why, exactly, would they get kicked out of the Police Service for a pre-arranged mercy-dash?Cooperman said:
My niece is currently awaiting her second liver transplant and has a similar problem. However, her partner's view is that he really doesn't care about the points or risk of disqual so long as he gets her there in time for her to have some chance of living in the long term. That's how serious her condition is.
You have to wonder about the wisdom of driving under such stress.
So the alternative is not to bother at all, since the ambulance service can't or won't cover this situation and time is of the essence?Cooperman said:
One has to ask what sort of society we have if those trying to overcome life threatening conditions have to be at further risk due to a wish from some zealots to put points onto licences and collect some cash.
Well, there are other reasons for speed limits, apart from simple revenue raising.Cooperman said:
Did he say he intended to drive dangerously with his friend on board whilst hurrying to the hospital? One might think that with a patient needing life-saving surgery he would be hardly likely to drive in any manner other than complete safety. We all know that the blind enforcement of speed limits on the M'ways are nothing to do with safety. If a traffic police patrol stopped such a driver for speeding they would more than likely provide a high speed escort - they are human after all.
If necessary just 'go-for-it' and argue the consequences later. Think what the Daily Mail would make of it if prosecution followed.
The Daily Mail would be the first to want to string you up if something went wrong.
In such a situation you go for the best option available which is to do the necessary to give your friend the best chance of life. The media would love such a story: 'Mercy dash driver penalised by cash-cameras'. Would the CPS actually run with this in face of medical evidence and the need for urgency?
On the subject of location of hospital for transplant, not all hospitals can carry out the necessary procedures. The consultant will always want his/her own transplant experienced team there. It's not a simple procedure like removal of an appendix.
I'm sure Madcop/Gone has posted something about this before - that a car used for emergency Police or Ambulance duties can have some kind of 'exemption' but I'm not sure what counts as 'Ambulance' duties or 'emergency'?
I will say though that my youngest son has a serious heart condition and so could require an emergency trip to Hospital at any time, if this is ever the case and the best/quickest way available at the time was to drive him myself then I really wouldn't worry about the consequences of being 'scammed' and would do the neccessary and argue the toss later if need be....... And as Cooperman says the Daily Mail would a story like this.
Hope everything goes well for your friend.
I will say though that my youngest son has a serious heart condition and so could require an emergency trip to Hospital at any time, if this is ever the case and the best/quickest way available at the time was to drive him myself then I really wouldn't worry about the consequences of being 'scammed' and would do the neccessary and argue the toss later if need be....... And as Cooperman says the Daily Mail would a story like this.
Hope everything goes well for your friend.
It would be nice to think that you would be granted an exemption, however it would be even better if the NHS were able to offer the service themselves!!
As far as I know, you will not be granted an exemption from the speed limits, as the consequences & precedent would be too far reaching.
As far as I know, you will not be granted an exemption from the speed limits, as the consequences & precedent would be too far reaching.
RTRA 1984 S87:
87 Exemption of fire brigade, ambulance and police vehicles from speed limits
No statutory provision imposing a speed limit on motor vehicles shall apply
to any vehicle on an occasion when it is being used for fire brigade, ambulance
or police purposes, if the observance of that provision would be likely to
hinder the use of the vehicle for the purpose for which it is being used on that
occasion.
Looks good to me.
87 Exemption of fire brigade, ambulance and police vehicles from speed limits
No statutory provision imposing a speed limit on motor vehicles shall apply
to any vehicle on an occasion when it is being used for fire brigade, ambulance
or police purposes, if the observance of that provision would be likely to
hinder the use of the vehicle for the purpose for which it is being used on that
occasion.
Looks good to me.
Dwight VanDriver said:
Speak with your local Head of Plod. He MAY be able to assist with a Humanitarian Escort under those circumstances but the unpredictabilty of when required may prevent resources being allocated.
Is there an Air Ambulance operating in your area?. We have one in the North East that is run entirely by charity so no connection with NHS.
Presume you have done a dummy run obeying all speed limits? What is the timing like? Any slack? It will no doubt be mentioned that far better to get the patient to Hospital within the speed limits than lose her by inappropriate speed.
Hope everything turns out OK
dvd
Was not in the same life threatening situation over youngest kitten ... but classed as "high risk" ...because of past ..
Mad Doc alerted the local Plod - - he set off without them..kittens make their own mind up
about when they want to make grand appearance .... but he has a green light doo-dah...they joined us as we reached the hospital und I am not saying how fast he drove .. ist "rudey" 
.... Steviebabes still lurk Und of course - I was telling him to get a 
move-on...
Ist also rural force -- not big city with their paperwork
But DVD ist right .. check out Air Ambulance...try some dummy runs...
>> Edited by WildCat on Tuesday 28th March 07:47
safespeed said:
RTRA 1984 S87:
87 Exemption of fire brigade, ambulance and police vehicles from speed limits
No statutory provision imposing a speed limit on motor vehicles shall apply
to any vehicle on an occasion when it is being used for fire brigade, ambulance
or police purposes, if the observance of that provision would be likely to
hinder the use of the vehicle for the purpose for which it is being used on that
occasion.
Looks good to me.
New road safety bill, if passed, adds the proviso that the driver of the vehicle needs to have been trained in high speed driving.
Road Safety Bill said:
(2) Subsection (1) above does not apply unless the vehicle is being driven
by a person who—
(a) has satisfactorily completed a course of training in the driving
of vehicles at high speed provided in accordance with
regulations under this section, or
(b) is driving the vehicle as part of such a course.
This happened to a friend of my Dads and the local police took him from Sheffield to Birmingham in an unmarked traffic car.
Reached speeds of 150mph and the story goes that a marked car tried to stop them on the M1. Driver just got on the radio, requested that they call of the following marked car and refused to stop.
Reached speeds of 150mph and the story goes that a marked car tried to stop them on the M1. Driver just got on the radio, requested that they call of the following marked car and refused to stop.
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