Discussion
Sold my 964 celebration,
I've had a few ideas like supercharging a 993. ( decided against that with my 964 ) but leaning towards a 993 turbo and I've been looking for one for a while now. Either miss the good ones or they turn out to be dogs ! Any of you fellas got a good one to sell or know of some one who has ? my budget is around £45k. need a dark colour preferably black but others considered, light or two tone sports interior and sub 55k miles. I'll travel to the ends of the earth ( usually end up doing that anyway ) All the usual stuff like good history no damage etc...
Tall order ?
On the other hand anyone supercharged a 993 ? how's it drive ? I've heard they're all torque (the car not the driver !! no offence) and quite flat. I'd be interested to know before I discount it.
I'd be interested in your comments and any help.
Cheers
I've had a few ideas like supercharging a 993. ( decided against that with my 964 ) but leaning towards a 993 turbo and I've been looking for one for a while now. Either miss the good ones or they turn out to be dogs ! Any of you fellas got a good one to sell or know of some one who has ? my budget is around £45k. need a dark colour preferably black but others considered, light or two tone sports interior and sub 55k miles. I'll travel to the ends of the earth ( usually end up doing that anyway ) All the usual stuff like good history no damage etc...
Tall order ?
On the other hand anyone supercharged a 993 ? how's it drive ? I've heard they're all torque (the car not the driver !! no offence) and quite flat. I'd be interested to know before I discount it.
I'd be interested in your comments and any help.
Cheers
You are correct, supercharging is a gret way of increasing the power of a 993 but it does produce a flat torque curve and has issues with heat if used on track.
However for the 993 VarioRam we now offer a head/cam/exhaust package that bumps it up to 360bhp & 430Nm (350bhp for the non-VarioRam). OK, not cheap at circa £10k +VAT but since most 993's are due a top end rebuild anyway due to shot exhaust valve guides, it may not be out of the question if the price of the car allowed for it.
However for the 993 VarioRam we now offer a head/cam/exhaust package that bumps it up to 360bhp & 430Nm (350bhp for the non-VarioRam). OK, not cheap at circa £10k +VAT but since most 993's are due a top end rebuild anyway due to shot exhaust valve guides, it may not be out of the question if the price of the car allowed for it.
circo said:
Sold my 964 celebration,
I've had a few ideas like supercharging a 993. ( decided against that with my 964 ) but leaning towards a 993 turbo and I've been looking for one for a while now. Either miss the good ones or they turn out to be dogs ! Any of you fellas got a good one to sell or know of some one who has ? my budget is around £45k. need a dark colour preferably black but others considered, light or two tone sports interior and sub 55k miles. I'll travel to the ends of the earth ( usually end up doing that anyway ) All the usual stuff like good history no damage etc...
Tall order ?
On the other hand anyone supercharged a 993 ? how's it drive ? I've heard they're all torque (the car not the driver !! no offence) and quite flat. I'd be interested to know before I discount it.
I'd be interested in your comments and any help.
Cheers
my 993 TT is for sale at Shirleys of Meriden for 45 K, it has 49,000 miles and FSH. It's polar silver, not dark and has forged 3 piece alloy racing wheels similar to the ones used on the GT2s.
However I'm having second thoughts about selling it, as in Germany (where I now live) the prices aren't very much different, and I've just had the clutch done and spent good money getting her to the spec she is- don't want to have to go through that all again with another one- especially consdering the small price differential for German LHD ones. Also am considering long terms plans of Australia.....so I guess I would only accept asking price now. It's coming off the market in about a month to come live with me in Germany.
re:Supercharged Porkers
I have worked for OEMs for almost 10 years now, I was involved in engineering the powertrains on Jag XJRs and XKRs and also know how the after market operate.
No matter how clever the aftermarket claim they are, there's usualy a world of difference between how some aftermarket outfit operates (some of them are exceptional, usually the ex- OEMs but that's rare) and an OEM, especially compared to someone as reputable as Porsche. For example, when deciding on what what kind of supercharger to use , we have to consider the pressure ratio across the supercharger, the maximum rated speed of the supercgharger, the intercooler tank temps, the combustion burn rates, maximum rate of presure rise in the cylinder, the mean inlet mach index nmumber in the ports and most importantly how a supercharger bypass should operate to "freewheel" the SC at part load for fuel economy. The cam profiles and timing are re optimsied for each supercharger variant. Do you think an after market outfit has the facilities to do this? Can they test several engines to destruction keeping an eye on exhaust valve temperatures? Nope. Suck it and see, possibly on the racetrack? Yes, that's more like it. It's more common in the UK, where people bolting together new fangled bits together to make an engine spec- and that's called "engineering", rather than thinking about it carefully and after extensive testing. I rememeber talking to an aftermarket modifying place at the Autosport show, and they REALLY did believe they knew more and were cleverer than Porsche themselves! Such wonderful arrogance. All based on claims from figures from some inertia chasis dyno. That Inertia chasis Dyno MUST be correct of course. It's true, quite often there is scope for improvement because the OEM are trying to meet all sorts of Regulations across all sorts of markets.
In Germany- it's too much the other way, with the TUV being over cautious and regulating any modification at all(including wheel spacers). I'm not seriously trying to disuade you from going the supercharged route, only that a 993tt from Porsche would have been much much more fastidiously and extensively engineered.
I have worked for OEMs for almost 10 years now, I was involved in engineering the powertrains on Jag XJRs and XKRs and also know how the after market operate.
No matter how clever the aftermarket claim they are, there's usualy a world of difference between how some aftermarket outfit operates (some of them are exceptional, usually the ex- OEMs but that's rare) and an OEM, especially compared to someone as reputable as Porsche. For example, when deciding on what what kind of supercharger to use , we have to consider the pressure ratio across the supercharger, the maximum rated speed of the supercgharger, the intercooler tank temps, the combustion burn rates, maximum rate of presure rise in the cylinder, the mean inlet mach index nmumber in the ports and most importantly how a supercharger bypass should operate to "freewheel" the SC at part load for fuel economy. The cam profiles and timing are re optimsied for each supercharger variant. Do you think an after market outfit has the facilities to do this? Can they test several engines to destruction keeping an eye on exhaust valve temperatures? Nope. Suck it and see, possibly on the racetrack? Yes, that's more like it. It's more common in the UK, where people bolting together new fangled bits together to make an engine spec- and that's called "engineering", rather than thinking about it carefully and after extensive testing. I rememeber talking to an aftermarket modifying place at the Autosport show, and they REALLY did believe they knew more and were cleverer than Porsche themselves! Such wonderful arrogance. All based on claims from figures from some inertia chasis dyno. That Inertia chasis Dyno MUST be correct of course. It's true, quite often there is scope for improvement because the OEM are trying to meet all sorts of Regulations across all sorts of markets.
In Germany- it's too much the other way, with the TUV being over cautious and regulating any modification at all(including wheel spacers). I'm not seriously trying to disuade you from going the supercharged route, only that a 993tt from Porsche would have been much much more fastidiously and extensively engineered.
This one seems awfully cheap www.atomicwebsolutions.com/tom-ferguson/home.htm (maybe it is awful?)
I had a 9m supercharger on mine and took it off. I can only speak for my car but here goes
The engine character with a charger is different. You have lots of torque available to you from below 1000 revs. The car moves effortlessly along at low revs because it got tons of torque. I notice the difference here now it is removed.
It also seems to breathe better beyond about 5,000 and has an improved sense of urgency. However in the middle, 3-5,000 it doesn't feel a lot different. I'm not saying it isn't different, just that it doesn't feel it, probably because you already have the torque, whereas on an NA 911 its only really beginning to come on cam at around 4000.
I called the guy who had had it put on and he felt similar though he had timed the car over a bit of road and it certainly covered the ground more quickly with the charger.
Certainly it is nothing like the character if a turbo - they are like night and day.
The guy I sold it too loves it, as do many others, but I wasn't overly keen. The reason it came off really comes down to wanting it origanl, but more importantly I would have wanted 9m to look after it as many of the good indies were not happy working on it. It was simply not realistic to go to Warrington for servicing needs.
However I did speak to the 9m boys a few times whilt I was making the decsion to remove - they were very helpful indeed. If I wanted another, I would go back there
>> Edited by james s on Wednesday 29th March 08:29
The engine character with a charger is different. You have lots of torque available to you from below 1000 revs. The car moves effortlessly along at low revs because it got tons of torque. I notice the difference here now it is removed.
It also seems to breathe better beyond about 5,000 and has an improved sense of urgency. However in the middle, 3-5,000 it doesn't feel a lot different. I'm not saying it isn't different, just that it doesn't feel it, probably because you already have the torque, whereas on an NA 911 its only really beginning to come on cam at around 4000.
I called the guy who had had it put on and he felt similar though he had timed the car over a bit of road and it certainly covered the ground more quickly with the charger.
Certainly it is nothing like the character if a turbo - they are like night and day.
The guy I sold it too loves it, as do many others, but I wasn't overly keen. The reason it came off really comes down to wanting it origanl, but more importantly I would have wanted 9m to look after it as many of the good indies were not happy working on it. It was simply not realistic to go to Warrington for servicing needs.
However I did speak to the 9m boys a few times whilt I was making the decsion to remove - they were very helpful indeed. If I wanted another, I would go back there
>> Edited by james s on Wednesday 29th March 08:29
Thanks for all your info. Northeast, I checked out the 993tt you mentioned, 90k and lots of paint but thanks anyhow. Marquis, I've been considering a trip to view yours but it's obviously not the colour I would prefer. In 2 minds as to whether to hold out for exactly what I want or compromise. Would you deal direct or do I have to go through Shirley's ? Also I've seen a few LHD 993tt whilst I've been looking for mid 30's in the UK. Maybe better to buy a left hooker over here ?
Aceparts, are you looking to sell ?
>> Edited by circo on Wednesday 29th March 09:13
Aceparts, are you looking to sell ?
>> Edited by circo on Wednesday 29th March 09:13
circo said:
Thanks for all your info. Northeast, I checked out the 993tt you mentioned, 90k and lots of paint but thanks anyhow. Marquis, I've been considering a trip to view yours but it's obviously not the colour I would prefer. In 2 minds as to whether to hold out for exactly what I want or compromise. Would you deal direct or do I have to go through Shirley's ? Also I've seen a few LHD 993tt whilst I've been looking for mid 30's in the UK. Maybe better to buy a left hooker over here ?
I don't think I could deal direct, the reason being is that I would have to fly over a couple of times, and I've had enough people wasting my time. I also no longer have any where to keep the car. Don't get me wrong, Im not saying you're a time waster, it's just a load of hassle. It's a shame you weren't on the market for one come end of December when it was up on here.
I could get a LHD one over there and a cheeky tosser tried to do a directswap with mine, but this thing had higher miles and was LHD, I would expect to GET money in that situation in the UK. It's so difficult trying to find the right one.
The other aspect for me to consider is the possibility that I may go to Australia in the long term (I have some irons in the fire, and one of my bosses from here is emigrating). In Oz, LHD cars are NOT allowed and if you buy a RHD car to take over there and then you have to have owned it for over 1 year.
circo said:
Thanks for all your info. Northeast, I checked out the 993tt you mentioned, 90k and lots of paint but thanks anyhow. Marquis, I've been considering a trip to view yours but it's obviously not the colour I would prefer. In 2 minds as to whether to hold out for exactly what I want or compromise. Would you deal direct or do I have to go through Shirley's ? Also I've seen a few LHD 993tt whilst I've been looking for mid 30's in the UK. Maybe better to buy a left hooker over here ?
Aceparts, are you looking to sell ?
>> Edited by circo on Wednesday 29th March 09:13
Depending on what you mean by 'Lots of paint', these cars are between 8 an 11 years old. It's normal to have some paint redone on a vehicle that is that kind of age. Mine had a front end respray (bumper, wings, bonnet) before I bought it. The quality was good but not factory finish. I use the car mostly for long trips across Europe, lot's of Autobahn's etc. I've picked up quite a few stone chips. At some point I'll do the front end again. However, as far as I'm concerned this is part of the maintenance of a car that gets used. Mine only has 45k but chips to paint work can happen in a couple of hundred miles.
I much prefer to have a front end painted than have loads of stone chips but keep 'original' paint. No problem with new paintwork as long as it's done properly.
>> Edited by silver993tt on Wednesday 29th March 09:48
james s said:
I called the guy who had had it put on
That guy would be me (Hi James
) I fully rate the supercharger on my car (911SC). It has 300 pounds of torque from 2000-4000rpm (so is very smooth) and then it increases to 366 between 4000 and 5000rpm before tailing off.
So when James is saying that an NA car only really comes on cam at 4000 rpm then I can say the same about mine too - difference being a shed load more torque.
Temps are exactly the same on road use and mpg is very similar too.
With respect to servicing the supercharger itself I've changed the snout end oil seal (minor leak) and the belt. Other than this the supercharger should be maintenance free.
However, if you needed any work that required taking the supercharger off then I would take it up to 9M.
HTH
I have the Ninemeister supercharger kit on my 993, along with a freer-breathing exhaust (Cargraphic). As far as I'm concerned, it's absolutely fantastic. Yes the low-down torque changes the character of the car somewhat, but it doesn't feel stifled at the top end compared to a standard 993.
Obviously compared to 9m's heads-n-cams upgrade it will feel flatter, but the S/C is brilliant on road. As to 'heat problems' on track - basically the standard kit is not intercooled so as temperatures rise, inlet temps rise and the ECU has to rack the timing back to prevent detonation. There is an intercooler kit available for the supercharger, which is actually a water-air chargecooler IIRC, which should solve this problem. I haven't actually had any issues at all with the supercharger and temperatures, but I haven't driven hours flat out on track in one session.
It doesn't feel like a shoddy aftermarket kit either, the character of the engine suits the car pretty well and 9m's installation looks and performs like a factory item.
I doubt I'd choose to go on a supercharger project if I had £45k waiting and liked turbos... however it should not be seen as a 'poor relation' or a badly compromised kit. I would have thought that in real-world road driving, my S/C 993 would be easily as fast as a 360bhp 9m head-job upgrade.
It all depends what you want to use the car for - if it's primarily trackdays then I'd go for 9m N/A tuning, lose weight and good suspension - if it's Vmax, then turbo and the never ending upgrade cycle - if it's road driving, then the S/C is a damn fine solution.
My tuppence for what it's worth.
Obviously compared to 9m's heads-n-cams upgrade it will feel flatter, but the S/C is brilliant on road. As to 'heat problems' on track - basically the standard kit is not intercooled so as temperatures rise, inlet temps rise and the ECU has to rack the timing back to prevent detonation. There is an intercooler kit available for the supercharger, which is actually a water-air chargecooler IIRC, which should solve this problem. I haven't actually had any issues at all with the supercharger and temperatures, but I haven't driven hours flat out on track in one session.
It doesn't feel like a shoddy aftermarket kit either, the character of the engine suits the car pretty well and 9m's installation looks and performs like a factory item.
I doubt I'd choose to go on a supercharger project if I had £45k waiting and liked turbos... however it should not be seen as a 'poor relation' or a badly compromised kit. I would have thought that in real-world road driving, my S/C 993 would be easily as fast as a 360bhp 9m head-job upgrade.
It all depends what you want to use the car for - if it's primarily trackdays then I'd go for 9m N/A tuning, lose weight and good suspension - if it's Vmax, then turbo and the never ending upgrade cycle
- if it's road driving, then the S/C is a damn fine solution. My tuppence for what it's worth.
Aceparts thats the RS chip doing it for you.
Regarding LHD drive prices I think its hilarious that you can buy them in the UK for €40k with 100km on the clock, when the same cars are 15 to 20% more in Germany.
Take your time, he right car will come along with a budget of £45k, you have enough money to buy one retail and a few k to spare privately.
Regarding LHD drive prices I think its hilarious that you can buy them in the UK for €40k with 100km on the clock, when the same cars are 15 to 20% more in Germany.
Take your time, he right car will come along with a budget of £45k, you have enough money to buy one retail and a few k to spare privately.
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