Perfect engine for a new TVR S?

[wheeljack888]

I'm probably going to light the blue touch paper with this one, but I really don't want this to turn into another Speed Six bashing or Chevy LS thread.

Whatever the issues surrounding the S6 are, there is no doubt it has to be a horrendously expensive engine to make. It's extremely low volume so there can't be any economies of scale. TVR has done this relentless upmarket push into Porsche territory and is now way beyond the reach of many potential customers. Would it hurt the brand much if they went slightly downmarket and introduced an affordable entry level 'S' series?

Later this year Ford are releasing a new 3.5 litre V6. (see link here) Now I know Ford is a dirty word to some people, but hear me out. This is a cracking engine, it's compact, it's light, it's got DOHC with direct acting buckets, a forged steel crank, a high redline (offically 6700 but will do more). If TVR ditch the VVT and inlet manifold and put in long duration fixed cams and design a new manifold with port throttles they would easily get over 300bhp.

Combined with a lightweight body, a simple stripped out 'clubsport' interior, and TVR's new found chassis setup prowess. All for no more than 30k. It's go to be a winner, hasn't it?

Cheers

Phil

>> Edited by wheeljack888 on Sunday 9th April 22:22

[GreenV8S]

The problem with basing your car on somebody else's engine is that they can hold you hostage, and since engines tend to be very expensive you can end up giving your engine supplier the bulk of your profit.

[the gazman]

Yeah but the estimated cost of a speed 6 engine is 12to13K, thats what's going your own way costs against buying off the shelf.

[wheeljack888]

Gaz, 300hp is close to the 3.6 (they are claiming 350hp though) but perhaps there is enough snobbery not to want a Ford engine for it to continue! Also why not just have the 4.0 litre.

GreenV8S, I know what your saying but they are going to be making over 300000 of these engines a year and this engine will probably be in production for the next 10 years. Ford would probably not want to deal with TVR directly and suggest they buy them off the shelf from someone like www.powertorque.co.uk/ just like Morgan do. I cannot imagine these costing much more than £3000 each.

[JR]

Sounds like an excellent idea. Uncanny similarities to the creation of the original S but TVRs sales are similar to the 80s also. At least this idea fits into TVR's existing model line up although I guess that 2500cc would fit in better.

[HarryW]

Re the TVR Speed6 3.6 I've witnessed a T350 go on the rollers at 340+ and come out with 376, given that I can't see why you'd want to change it.
I think given the lessons learnt with the S6 it should be used more perhaps in a lesser models such as a S successor . Its wonderfully linear in its power delivery and high(ish) revving too, ideal for a light weight car IMHO.

[JR]

HarryW said:

Re the TVR Speed6 3.6 I've witnessed a T350 go on the rollers at 340+ and come out with 376, given that I can't see why you'd want to change it. I think given the lessons learnt with the S6 it should be used more perhaps in a lesser models such as a S successor . Its wonderfully linear in its power delivery and high(ish) revving too, ideal for a light weight car IMHO.

Isn't that the Tamora? An 'S' would have to be £10K cheaper.

[wheeljack888]

HarryW said:

Re the TVR Speed6 3.6 I've witnessed a T350 go on the rollers at 340+ and come out with 376, given that I can't see why you'd want to change it. I think given the lessons learnt with the S6 it should be used more perhaps in a lesser models such as a S successor . Its wonderfully linear in its power delivery and high(ish) revving too, ideal for a light weight car IMHO.

Not doubting it make the power but it's going to be hugely expensive. When I worked at Perkins engines they would charge an OEM customer £10000 for a hand built prototype engine still using mostly standard production components, and these where sold at a loss! The many bespoke (prototype volume) components on the S6 and being hand built means a figure of 12-13k is probably about right.

[JR]

wheeljack888 said:

Not doubting it make the power but it's going to be hugely expensive. When I worked at Perkins engines they would charge an OEM customer £10000 for a hand built prototype engine still using mostly standard production components, and these where sold at a loss! The many bespoke (prototype volume) components on the S6 and being hand built means a figure of 12-13k is probably about right.

Given that the AJP8 was originally costed at less than £4K and then made cheaper and that I was under the impression that the S6 was currently retailing at £12K+VAT those prices seem a little high. Unless there is no profit being made on the engines.

[rev-erend]

JR said:

wheeljack888 said: Not doubting it make the power but it's going to be hugely expensive. When I worked at Perkins engines they would charge an OEM customer £10000 for a hand built prototype engine still using mostly standard production components, and these where sold at a loss! The many bespoke (prototype volume) components on the S6 and being hand built means a figure of 12-13k is probably about right. Given that the AJP8 was originally costed at less than £4K and then made cheaper and that I was under the impression that the S6 was currently retailing at £12K+VAT those prices seem a little high. Unless there is no profit being made on the engines.

4K was in 1992 : that was a long time ago..

[JR]

rev-erend said:

4K was in 1992 : that was a long time ago..

Yes but TVR prices haven't even doubled in that time. It would tend to price the engine build at about say £7K now, a lot less than the £12K or £13K suggested. The figures just seem odd. (Could well be that wheeljack888 can cost TVR engines better than TVR or it could be that it's one reason why TVR make a loss on every car.)

[george 500]

Surely we all understand that a bespoke engine designed without compromise is better than a Ford V6, that's hardly the point here though is it? What is needed is a car (like the original S) that can undercut the present TVR product, appeal to a new marketplace, and be reliable. The great advantage of a Ford V6 is that it can be tied up to a Ford gearbox, diff, hubs etc. Even on the basis that you have got to accommodate a manufacturer's profit margin into the cost it is going to cost less than the equivalent kit on a Tamora. On the basis that you can walk into a Ford dealer and buy an engine for less than £5k there is already a significant saving on the interesting part. It could be wrapped in a more conventionally beautiful model than the controversial Sagaris or Tamora too.
Only two issues with this 1) It is not the mid 80s anymore and there is now a substantial amount of competition in the £30k sportscar market 2) Why use a Ford V6 when a Chevy V8 is barely any more?

[Tony 1234]

Christ! where is jellison when you need him.

[sideways mostly]

The Speed 6 is a fine engine , don't turn TVR back into a mongrel brand.
I hate the idea-sorry!

[RichardD]

sideways mostly said:

The Speed 6 is a fine engine , don't turn TVR back into a mongrel brand. I hate the idea-sorry!

Don't think anyone is saying drop the SP6, but expand slightly downwards. Exclusivity is fine, but if the cars become too exclusive by not selling, then this is going a bit too far. People don't seem to be complaining about the new Noble costing £75k and having a Ford V6

[toma500]

Dont know why tvr didnt buy up the rights to the rover v8 and use that after all tvr power are developing supercharged versions of the old rv8 now. plenty power 500 hp , and noise ,heritage ,light weight, and noise oh i already said that.

[GreenV8S]

The S6 has a higher component count than the V8 AJP, doesn't it? That would imply higher costs for parts and labour to build the engine.

[cramorra]

Because they won#t meet current emissions regulations (like alas the speed eight)????

[wheeljack888]

The idea is to have a sub-£30k Cayman killer.

300bhp, 1 tonne, 50/50 weight distribution, stiff chassis, Double wishbone allround, and (according to all accounts of the Sagaris) TVR's new chassis setup prowess.

Even EVO might sit up and take notice!

I agree that there is a fair amount of mainstream competition around the 30k mark, but TVR would only take a fraction of that market and also they all weigh at least 300kg more. Also the Chevy LS is a great engine (and I would defend all day long from the all too prevalent anti-yank snobbery) but the idea was never to step on the toes of the S6. Just help increase the cashflow and perhaps even help development of the S6.

The Ford V6's inlet manifolds, VVT and cams have been designed to lug a 2-tonne saloon around and therefore designed to be very flexible. It is well within TVR's capability (also helps not being hindered by having to meet emissions regs) to make the engine more peaky and thus more powerful at the top end. I'll stop there because I'll start boring you all with BMEPs and compression ratios for regular versus premium gasoline.

This all was only a suggestion anyway, it could be worse I could have suggested this little thing I've been working on:
http://media.ford.com/article_display

Cheers

Phil

>> Edited by wheeljack888 on Thursday 13th April 01:09

[JR]

GreenV8S said:

The S6 has a higher component count than the V8 AJP, doesn't it? That would imply higher costs for parts and labour to build the engine.

Does it? 6 cyls vs 8 but 24 valves vs 16 and one head vs two. TVR did say that the S6 was cheaper to build.

RichardD said:

Don't think anyone is saying drop the SP6, but expand slightly downwards. Exclusivity is fine, but if the cars become too exclusive by not selling, then this is going a bit too far.

wheeljack888 said:

The idea is to have a sub-£30k Cayman killer. 300bhp, 1 tonne, 50/50 weight distribution, stiff chassis, Double wishbone allround, and (according to all accounts of the Sagaris) TVR's new chassis setup prowess. Also the Chevy LS is a great engine but the idea was never to step on the toes of the S6. Just help increase the cashflow and perhaps even help development of the S6.

I agree that that's the LSx problem: there would be a Jensen Interceptor vs FF type situation. An LSx "S" type car would be a new TVR company direction not an addition to the range.