When the client is wrong............
Discussion
...... What do you do?
I've designed a website for a friend which can currently be seen here
Currently its a work in progess but even though i'm doing it on the cheap she wants blood and doesn't really listen to my constructive feedback on her designs for the site. (I'm not a web designer!!!)
Its driving me nuts! She wants the background images to be spread across the whole background instead of having the navigation text down the left hand side. IMO this will make the site difficult to navigate as each "background" image is different.
Saying that originally she wanted black backgrounds and pink "funky" writing!
How to do I tactifully say pay me for what i've down and you can make any changes you like to it afterwards?
Thanks,
Phill
PS - How can I put songs on the site but make it so that people can only stream them not download them.
>> Edited by pmanson on Monday 10th April 20:43
I've designed a website for a friend which can currently be seen here
Currently its a work in progess but even though i'm doing it on the cheap she wants blood and doesn't really listen to my constructive feedback on her designs for the site. (I'm not a web designer!!!)
Its driving me nuts! She wants the background images to be spread across the whole background instead of having the navigation text down the left hand side. IMO this will make the site difficult to navigate as each "background" image is different.
Saying that originally she wanted black backgrounds and pink "funky" writing!
How to do I tactifully say pay me for what i've down and you can make any changes you like to it afterwards?
Thanks,
Phill
PS - How can I put songs on the site but make it so that people can only stream them not download them.
>> Edited by pmanson on Monday 10th April 20:43
If you've been paid, and theres no repeat business, be honest
If you've been paid, and theres a chance of repeat business, make him think its his idea
If you havent been paid yet, but are on good terms, make him think its his idea
If you havent been paid, and its looking iffy, just nod
It its a black and white issue, be honest anyway, as theres nothing to gain by keeping schtumm when it WILL affect him/her
If you've been paid, and theres a chance of repeat business, make him think its his idea
If you havent been paid yet, but are on good terms, make him think its his idea
If you havent been paid, and its looking iffy, just nod
It its a black and white issue, be honest anyway, as theres nothing to gain by keeping schtumm when it WILL affect him/her
As an account exec I remember briefing the art studio with what the client wanted. After missing the deadline a couple of times, they'd come back with something completely different. 'That's not what I asked for' I'd say. 'But we thought it looked better like that', they'd reply. Result - no sale. 
Best way to get the bills paid is to do what they want. You can always suggest alternatives but if they say 'no' that's their business.
Best way to get the bills paid is to do what they want. You can always suggest alternatives but if they say 'no' that's their business.
simpo two said:
As an account exec I remember briefing the art studio with what the client wanted. After missing the deadline a couple of times, they'd come back with something completely different. 'That's not what I asked for' I'd say. 'But we thought it looked better like that', they'd reply. Result - no sale.
Best way to get the bills paid is to do what they want. You can always suggest alternatives but if they say 'no' that's their business.
Spot on. I never argue with things like this. If it looks crap at the end due to their specifications, don't put your name on it 
simpo two said:
Best way to get the bills paid is to do what they want. You can always suggest alternatives but if they say 'no' that's their business.
Yep, if they want a crap website then it's up to them. You still get paid and it's no skin off your nose, just don't leave any trace that it was you that wrote it.
My field is not web design, but tradition print media.
I will always try to make the end product 'better' without going outside the client's original brief - very few clients give you a brief so detailed that you can't tweak it somewhat.
If it ends up not matching the brief then I either don't get paid, or have to do it again for free.
>> Edited by mmm-five on Tuesday 11th April 12:51
I will always try to make the end product 'better' without going outside the client's original brief - very few clients give you a brief so detailed that you can't tweak it somewhat.
If it ends up not matching the brief then I either don't get paid, or have to do it again for free.
>> Edited by mmm-five on Tuesday 11th April 12:51
mmm-five said:
My field is not web design, but tradition print media.
I will always try to make the end product 'better' without going outside the client's original brief - very few clients give you a brief so detailed that you can't tweak it somewhat.
If it ends up not matching the brief then I either don't get paid, or have to do it again for free.
>> Edited by mmm-five on Tuesday 11th April 12:51
Thats where you change hats, from a designer, to an account manager.
At the outset, If it's a closed brief you try and get something in stone, if you cant get enough in stone, you point out in black and white that you will put your interpretations where there is not enough detail to work from, but that amendments to the brief after instruction will result in re-proof costs.
If the brief is totally open, give a price for producing at least 3 different designs, once a design has been chosen from the selection given, tighten down the brief again adding the above caveat in.
If the job is started without one of the 2 above scenarios, then you are going about it the wrong way!
How can she possibly be wrong?
www.phillmanson.co.uk/fionamoran/PicsOrig/FionaMoran06.jpg
www.phillmanson.co.uk/fionamoran/PicsOrig/FionaMoran03.jpg
edit to put links rather than images
>> Edited by tvrforever on Tuesday 11th April 21:18
www.phillmanson.co.uk/fionamoran/PicsOrig/FionaMoran06.jpg
www.phillmanson.co.uk/fionamoran/PicsOrig/FionaMoran03.jpg
edit to put links rather than images
>> Edited by tvrforever on Tuesday 11th April 21:18
Doesn't help you now, but in future you should really really consider CSS based web design.
By using CSS you can change the look and feel of the entire website by changing one file.
So when the client decides that actually the site would look better if all the text was pink times new roman 15pt., the background was cyan and magenta stripes, and if that image was there, and this image was here, and so on...
You make 5 changes to your style sheet, and it's done. You look like a legend, your client loves you, and everyone is happy. If you don't like the site, don't add it to your portfolio and don't put your name on it.
In the past when clients have told me that they want "x", I will try to influence them if possible. recently a client wanted an entry page, and also a music player in a popup window. I advised against this, based on my experience, but they insisted. it's their money so it's their choice!
By using CSS you can change the look and feel of the entire website by changing one file.
So when the client decides that actually the site would look better if all the text was pink times new roman 15pt., the background was cyan and magenta stripes, and if that image was there, and this image was here, and so on...
You make 5 changes to your style sheet, and it's done. You look like a legend, your client loves you, and everyone is happy. If you don't like the site, don't add it to your portfolio and don't put your name on it.
In the past when clients have told me that they want "x", I will try to influence them if possible. recently a client wanted an entry page, and also a music player in a popup window. I advised against this, based on my experience, but they insisted. it's their money so it's their choice!
pmanson said:
Doesn't help you now, but in future you should really really consider CSS based web design.
This is something I really want to learn about. Any helpful websites out there?
Phill
CSSZengarden is pretty good - www.csszengarden.com/ - it shows what can be done using CSS - every single example on there uses the exact same HTML code, with just a different style sheet loading.
W3Schools can be pretty good for learning stuff. www.w3schools.com/css/default.asp
Other than that, you can learn the way I did - find a site you like the look of, and look at the code to see how it's done. You can rob the CSS and the HTML and mess around to get an idea of how it all works.
I've found this useful more than once for doing columns and boxes:
www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/boxes.html
Or do it in Dreamweaver or Frontpage. Both provide good tools for editing tables and style sheets. I know they include extra code, and the hardcore people always complain about this. But the simple fact of the matter is that they work, and they enable you to save time.
I don't know html, I never will. I just know how to use dreamweaver and frontpage to create tables. The pages they generate work 100% of the time for me on the major platforms, and that's all I need. I really don't get the purists' argument. It's a matter of wanting to drive the car, not polishing it endlessly.
I don't know html, I never will. I just know how to use dreamweaver and frontpage to create tables. The pages they generate work 100% of the time for me on the major platforms, and that's all I need. I really don't get the purists' argument. It's a matter of wanting to drive the car, not polishing it endlessly.
orgasmicliving!! said:
Or do it in Dreamweaver or Frontpage. Both provide good tools for editing tables and style sheets. I know they include extra code, and the hardcore people always complain about this. But the simple fact of the matter is that they work, and they enable you to save time.
I don't know html, I never will. I just know how to use dreamweaver and frontpage to create tables. The pages they generate work 100% of the time for me on the major platforms, and that's all I need. I really don't get the purists' argument. It's a matter of wanting to drive the car, not polishing it endlessly.
Depends how you look at it.
If a client commissioned you and I to write the same site for them, I'd wager that doing it by hand I can do it faster, tidier, more efficiently, and very probably better looking, with easier to read and update code, code that validates perfectly and displays perfectly in every browser.
Don't get me wrong, dreamweaver et al are useful tools. But the purists argument is not a pointless one, and isn't just a case of nerd bragging rights.
orgasmicliving!! said:In all fairness, I'd say that's because you
I really don't get the purists' argument.
orgasmicliving!! said:I think your car analogy is slightly off the mark too. I'd say that being able to write HTML is like being able to drive a car, and using Dreamweaver or Frontpage is like taking the bus. They'll both get you to the same place, taking the bus might be less effort, but driving there will give you more control and flexibility.
...don't know html
Not knocking people who choose to use Dreamweaver or the like, it's just a slightly different mindset - either you want to create a web page, or you want to know how to create a web page.
I use dreamweaver and handcode, I usually use dreamweaver to make life easier for some bits (like a quick data table) and clear out the crap later, but sometimes it throws a hissy fit and wont do what I want, I still find myself adding in hand code all the time anyway.
The better analogy would be that hand code is like knowing how you car works and being able to fix it, dreamweaver is like knowing how to drive it but being stuck when it breaks down.
Taking the bus is like eWebedit pro, your only allowed to where it lets you.
Ands yes CSS is a great, should be simple to learn if you know HTML already and no shortage of free tutorials on the web, then jsut experiment and play around for a while.
I have numerous troubles with fussy types, I usually suggest what I think would look better and back it up by talking bollox about user studies and fancy quotes about psychology and graphic design to bamboozle them into making the right () choice, and usually create a quick alternative design to prove the point. If they still want it the nasty way I do it.
Artist types like your friend are usually the worst as they think they are experts on art, design and fashion when most of the time they couldn't be more wrong, most sites created or designed by those types are truly awful.
However it sounds like she wants her webpage to be like a myspace profile, hideously unreadable with lots of pointless personal showing off and embedded streaming music players playing music, most which come on automatically, seriously irritating most users. Generally it's a site for musical types who like to pimp themselves out, she would fit in perfectly. I would tell her to get a myspace profile and just put your code in there. You can probably pinch their embedded music player code as well
The better analogy would be that hand code is like knowing how you car works and being able to fix it, dreamweaver is like knowing how to drive it but being stuck when it breaks down.
Taking the bus is like eWebedit pro, your only allowed to where it lets you.
Ands yes CSS is a great, should be simple to learn if you know HTML already and no shortage of free tutorials on the web, then jsut experiment and play around for a while.
I have numerous troubles with fussy types, I usually suggest what I think would look better and back it up by talking bollox about user studies and fancy quotes about psychology and graphic design to bamboozle them into making the right (
) choice, and usually create a quick alternative design to prove the point. If they still want it the nasty way I do it. Artist types like your friend are usually the worst as they think they are experts on art, design and fashion when most of the time they couldn't be more wrong, most sites created or designed by those types are truly awful.
However it sounds like she wants her webpage to be like a myspace profile, hideously unreadable with lots of pointless personal showing off and embedded streaming music players playing music, most which come on automatically, seriously irritating most users. Generally it's a site for musical types who like to pimp themselves out, she would fit in perfectly. I would tell her to get a myspace profile and just put your code in there. You can probably pinch their embedded music player code as well
r988 said:
However it sounds like she wants her webpage to be like a myspace profile, hideously unreadable with lots of pointless personal showing off and embedded streaming music players playing music, most which come on automatically, seriously irritating most users. Generally it's a site for musical types who like to pimp themselves out, she would fit in perfectly. I would tell her to get a myspace profile and just put your code in there. You can probably pinch their embedded music player code as well
Thats my impression too!
Still struggling on this streaming music crap at the moment!
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