Tracked cars - such a bad thing?
Discussion
Still looking for my 993 s.
Interested in forum views of the desirability, or not to be precise, of cars that have been tracked. Does it matter if a car has had a few track days or is this a particularly negative aspect (I.e. significant cost price). Many ads claim boldly no track days but given most of these cars have had 5,6,7+ owners I cannot see how the existing owner would know anyway to quote this. So, should I avoid such a car or not worry about this and simply focus on all the usual condition, history stuff and be happy as long as all else checks out an ppi is solid?
Interested in forum views of the desirability, or not to be precise, of cars that have been tracked. Does it matter if a car has had a few track days or is this a particularly negative aspect (I.e. significant cost price). Many ads claim boldly no track days but given most of these cars have had 5,6,7+ owners I cannot see how the existing owner would know anyway to quote this. So, should I avoid such a car or not worry about this and simply focus on all the usual condition, history stuff and be happy as long as all else checks out an ppi is solid?
muzaa said:
Most frightening thing I heard about track days is the impact on the engine. My understanding is 24 hrs on the track equates to something like 100k miles normal driving.
Hmmm, my car has approx 150 hours track time on it so either Porsche engines really are bullit proof or the above is a bit of hyperbole.
muzaa said:
Most frightening thing I heard about track days is the impact on the engine. My understanding is 24 hrs on the track equates to something like 100k miles normal driving.
How can you compare time to miles?
As with all things its about the condition of the car. Track days do wear things faster than the road, so what it comes down to is where a given component is in its wear cycle. There is a bloke in my block of flats who revs the crap out of his engine cold every time he goes out. I'd rather a car that has been tracked, properly maintained and treated with correct sympathy when cold, than his old rides. (He's got an SLR now too, so heaven help whoever gets that off him!).
Porsches are very well built cars, and of all the marques, I would say they are one of the ones on which I'm least put off by trackday mileage.
To quote a Henryism, buy on condition.
You can do just as much abuse on the road, especially down twisty country lanes.
Its the maintenance between track days (brakes, tyres, bushes, fluids) that will keep the car in good condition and what really matters. If it looks like it does ten track days a year and visits a service centre once every November, walk away.
Its the maintenance between track days (brakes, tyres, bushes, fluids) that will keep the car in good condition and what really matters. If it looks like it does ten track days a year and visits a service centre once every November, walk away.
los angeles said:
Well, we know tracking has to be hell on tyres and brakes, and probably suspension bits too. Then there's the occasional off-track moment, the spin over gravel or around bends; again, that can't do much for body torsion if repeated often enough. As a private buyer, I'd not touch a track-driven car of any marque unless it was a track car I wanted, one designed for the track first and foremost.
Can't say I agree with all of that, tracks are smooth unlike roads so body torsions must be at least as bad on the road. If the car has a cage in it, then its going to be ridiculously stiff anyway. Just because a car has been driven on track doesn't mean its been into gravel either.
Too many factors to make generalisation imho.
los angeles said:
Just because a car has been driven on track doesn't mean its been into gravel either. Too many factors to make generalisation imho.
>> Edited by los angeles on Thursday 13th April 16:50
Same with a road car. You need to look at the car and get it inspected if necessary!
Having said that whilst I wouldn't mind a tracked GT3, not sure I'd be so kean on a heavily tracked turbo etc. Especially if it has PASM which I presume would cost a bomb to replace if its worn.
DanH said:Not sure which Henry that is ... not Ford, I am guessing ...
To quote a Henryism, buy on condition.
But it must hold true. A car may take a heavier pounding on a track than on road, but the question to ask is "what condition is it in?"
It makes no difference whether it is near the end of it's life becuase it has been worn out on the road, or on a track. A bad car is a bad car.
Oli.
los angeles said:
Having said that whilst I wouldn't mind a tracked GT3, not sure I'd be so kean on a heavily tracked turbo etc. Especially if it has PASM which I presume would cost a bomb to replace if its worn.
If it was an Elise, they all do that once they get some miles on! Having said that I would be less kean on an Elise which has run trackday tyres etc. Not sure the parts are all really specced for that type of loading. A GT3 however is...
muzaa said:
Most frightening thing I heard about track days is the impact on the engine. My understanding is 24 hrs on the track equates to something like 100k miles normal driving.
Why is this your understanding? I'd like to see the research backing it up.
Having said that, 100k miles motorway driving with fresh hot oil should have little impact on engine condition.
I would have thought the only bits of the car that are being worked harder than normal are suspension and wheel bearings and brakes owing to the increased and sustained cornering force.
The engine/gearbox is only doing what it's designed to do isn't it? Enthusiastic downchanges can ruin them just as easily on the road too if you have no mechanical empathy.
SM
Was a comment made to me when I was looking into have an engine tweak on my 993. I was asking how long a 993 engine would last after a rebuild and the comment was 100k or about 24 hrs drive on the track depending on the way you drive. The comment was perhaps more referring to racing the engine but racing/track quite similar. Similar enough for the sweeping generalisation of the comment anyway!
los angeles said:
Well, we know tracking has to be hell on tyres and brakes, and probably suspension bits too. Then there's the occasional off-track moment, the spin over gravel or around bends; again, that can't do much for body torsion if repeated often enough. As a private buyer, I'd not touch a track-driven car of any marque unless it was a track car I wanted, one designed for the track first and foremost.
that's what a 911 is
If a car's well looked after, then it shouldn't be a problem. As always buy on condition and check it out carefully, its your money after all.
100k miles or 24 hours I think is frankly bo**ocks. Not a Porsche but a 'frail' TVR story. used to have a TVR Taimar with a very modded trick engine built by an ex-race engine builder (up approx 50% on power over the original). I changed the oil regularly every 1200 miles or so and this engine did 27000 miles of which over 4000 were on a circuit (trackday) or sprint/hillclimb. It had a hard life I tell you, regularly redlined (well you've paid for all the revs so you might as well use them!). It finally went down on a Sprint at Goodwood (27,000 miles after being built), even then it was still driveable home but several of the rocker studs were adrift in the heads!
Now if an engine in a TVR can do 4000 track miles, then I reckon a Porsche engine will do more than 24hs because even LeMan cars don't do 4000 miles in 24hrs and you aren't going to be going that quick!!
davidy
100k miles or 24 hours I think is frankly bo**ocks. Not a Porsche but a 'frail' TVR story. used to have a TVR Taimar with a very modded trick engine built by an ex-race engine builder (up approx 50% on power over the original). I changed the oil regularly every 1200 miles or so and this engine did 27000 miles of which over 4000 were on a circuit (trackday) or sprint/hillclimb. It had a hard life I tell you, regularly redlined (well you've paid for all the revs so you might as well use them!). It finally went down on a Sprint at Goodwood (27,000 miles after being built), even then it was still driveable home but several of the rocker studs were adrift in the heads!
Now if an engine in a TVR can do 4000 track miles, then I reckon a Porsche engine will do more than 24hs because even LeMan cars don't do 4000 miles in 24hrs and you aren't going to be going that quick!!
davidy
Muzaa
In the 70's they used Ford and Triumph Engines, mine was a Ford one same as a Granada, but as I said rebuilt a little wilder!!
Your comment made me smile though!!
But then I'm one of those rare people who have done over 60k miles in TVRs (inc trackdays/spinting) and only called the AA out once (when a third party spacer came adrift causing a front wheel to become partially detached in the outside lane of the M4 at speed! hardly TVRs fault!). I have though been late on a few occassions!!
davidy
>> Edited by davidy on Thursday 13th April 19:53
In the 70's they used Ford and Triumph Engines, mine was a Ford one same as a Granada, but as I said rebuilt a little wilder!!
Your comment made me smile though!!
But then I'm one of those rare people who have done over 60k miles in TVRs (inc trackdays/spinting) and only called the AA out once (when a third party spacer came adrift causing a front wheel to become partially detached in the outside lane of the M4 at speed! hardly TVRs fault!). I have though been late on a few occassions!!
davidy
>> Edited by davidy on Thursday 13th April 19:53
Glad it made you laugh, I am one of the many Porsche owners with high bills ;-) and I don’t even use the car on the track!! Did go out in my friends Cerbra a couple of months ago, it was a monster in comparison to the 993. But it was rattling when we finished which did make me smile, smile in the way I knew I had bought the right car for me.
I do think people make posts on here like "how do you buy your first Porsche?" hoping for a magic answer, but I think the trick is go for one that looks like it has been cared for, with history, reasonable miles and get it checked out by a pro. If it all goes tong, sue whomever you can. If not make sure you really love the car and suck the bill (i fell like framing some of mine!! I mean brakes how do the cost 800. Callipers, disks, pads, sensor oh yeah i remember now).
The only thing that gets me out of bed at 6AM on a Sunday morning is the thought of clear roads and 300 horses under my right foot, nice. Best advice if you are thinking of getting a sports car, don’t think just do. It's never going to be a good buy, not unless your a shark, ahem I mean car dealer....
I do think people make posts on here like "how do you buy your first Porsche?" hoping for a magic answer, but I think the trick is go for one that looks like it has been cared for, with history, reasonable miles and get it checked out by a pro. If it all goes tong, sue whomever you can. If not make sure you really love the car and suck the bill (i fell like framing some of mine!! I mean brakes how do the cost 800. Callipers, disks, pads, sensor oh yeah i remember now).
The only thing that gets me out of bed at 6AM on a Sunday morning is the thought of clear roads and 300 horses under my right foot, nice. Best advice if you are thinking of getting a sports car, don’t think just do. It's never going to be a good buy, not unless your a shark, ahem I mean car dealer....
One of the benefits of an owner who does some track days is that they generally pay a lot of attention to their cars and aren`t afraid to spend some money one them. Couple that with the fact that most drivers on a track day potter around well within their car`s ability and you potentially have some good machinary. Certainly I wouldn`t instantly dismiss those cars. As ever buy on condition.
I can think of some lovely cars we`ve had through our hands, some of whom`s owners post on these pages, where they had spent considerable sums mechanically improving their cars to the extent they were amongst of the best we`ve seen. I`m thinking new suspension and so on rather than increased power.
Henry
I can think of some lovely cars we`ve had through our hands, some of whom`s owners post on these pages, where they had spent considerable sums mechanically improving their cars to the extent they were amongst of the best we`ve seen. I`m thinking new suspension and so on rather than increased power.
Henry
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