bike powered '7's - what are they like on the road ?
Discussion
Hi,
I'm a little new here, and I'm hoping you can give me a little advice. I'm a biker myself and also have previously owned a new Westfield with a 155bhp Zetec, I found the car quite slow and several niggles with it meant that I only had it for 12 months. I'm looking at maybe trying a car made my Tiger and this time lighter weight with more power.
Going the lighter weight way I wondered if I could manage a bike powered version on the road. I don't put huge mileage on and want the car mainly as a toy, but it still has to maintain my interest, and to do that it's got to be something special in terms of performance.
could someone who runs a similar (bike powered) westfield or Tiger please answer the following :-
does the clutch feel 'weak' since it's trying to propell so much more weight (than a bike) into motion from a set of traffic lights
does the clutch feel way different to that of a standard car ?
Do the engines cope reasonably well with bieng in something heavier than what they were designed for ?
Would you describe the driving experience, regarding engine, gearbox, clutch to be maneagable on the road, or is it better suited to the track environment ?
Do these things kill clutches ?
Are there tougher 'racing clutches' available for GSX1000 or Bussa1300 engines ?
I'm a little new here, and I'm hoping you can give me a little advice. I'm a biker myself and also have previously owned a new Westfield with a 155bhp Zetec, I found the car quite slow and several niggles with it meant that I only had it for 12 months. I'm looking at maybe trying a car made my Tiger and this time lighter weight with more power.
Going the lighter weight way I wondered if I could manage a bike powered version on the road. I don't put huge mileage on and want the car mainly as a toy, but it still has to maintain my interest, and to do that it's got to be something special in terms of performance.
could someone who runs a similar (bike powered) westfield or Tiger please answer the following :-
does the clutch feel 'weak' since it's trying to propell so much more weight (than a bike) into motion from a set of traffic lights
does the clutch feel way different to that of a standard car ?
Do the engines cope reasonably well with bieng in something heavier than what they were designed for ?
Would you describe the driving experience, regarding engine, gearbox, clutch to be maneagable on the road, or is it better suited to the track environment ?
Do these things kill clutches ?
Are there tougher 'racing clutches' available for GSX1000 or Bussa1300 engines ?
I have a blade powered locost (pic in profile)
The clutch in mine has been uprated with an EBC item. This has resulted in it turning more into a switch than a clutch
but i have got used to it fairly quickly.
The clutch will last depending how you use it and in most bike engines as you know are fairly easy to change compared to a conventional car clutch. I have done a couple of trackdays and quite a few weekend blasts and still on the clutch that was in the car when i bought it, probably a good 5k miles i think.
As a biker the bike engine should keep your interest in the car in my opinion as the sound is awesome compared to your average mildly tuned car engine and the lower weight makes for a great handling car aswell.
Go for it
The clutch in mine has been uprated with an EBC item. This has resulted in it turning more into a switch than a clutch
but i have got used to it fairly quickly. The clutch will last depending how you use it and in most bike engines as you know are fairly easy to change compared to a conventional car clutch. I have done a couple of trackdays and quite a few weekend blasts and still on the clutch that was in the car when i bought it, probably a good 5k miles i think.
As a biker the bike engine should keep your interest in the car in my opinion as the sound is awesome compared to your average mildly tuned car engine and the lower weight makes for a great handling car aswell.
Go for it
carpetpaul said:
does the clutch feel 'weak' since it's trying to propell so much more weight (than a bike) into motion from a set of traffic lights
does the clutch feel way different to that of a standard car ?
Do the engines cope reasonably well with bieng in something heavier than what they were designed for ?
Would you describe the driving experience, regarding engine, gearbox, clutch to be maneagable on the road, or is it better suited to the track environment ?
Do these things kill clutches ?
Are there tougher 'racing clutches' available for GSX1000 or Bussa1300 engines ?
Clutch is fine, there are stronger springs available for all engines which will help but I've done probably 150 standing starts on sprints, at Santa Pod and the road (!) and it's done 8000 miles and is still working fine. Feels quite light, doesn't need a heavy foot. On the Busa keep the Suzuki plates, they are better than the EBC.
The Busa engine is simply fantastic, it's very reliable, very strong (in turbo form it will make a nice 300bhp with just simple, sensible mods) and will probably run for 20,000 miles (or more ?) in a car without a problem, even if you drive like a loon. Just respect it like you would any other fast road engine, warm it up, cool it down, feed it good oil etc.
There's no denying the driving experience of a BEC is different to that of a car engined car, they are less friendly when driving slowly through town but not difficult, just not the ideal car for that purpose. On an A or B road then the situation is reversed and the BEC is so much more flickable, faster, brakes better, accelerates faster etc etc, like a mini F1 car, but you probably know that already.
busa_rush said:
On an A or B road then the situation is reversed and the BEC is so much more flickable, faster, brakes better, accelerates faster etc etc, like a mini F1 car, but you probably know that already.
That whole feeling of a clutchless upshift on the limiter at 12krpm+ cant be repeated with a car engine and really makes you feel like Schumacher
A well setup BEC with proper tyres and decent brakes will go down the twisties very quickly and any biker would have to be a complete loon to try to stay with you
I've just had a reply from the director of Tiger sports cars, I communicated by email with him a while ago, and when asking him the same question ie car power vs. bike power, he's again said to forget about bike powered cars.
I'm finding it a little difficult to understand why that is, I don't suppose it's simply because he's trying to shift a glut of car engines or something like that simply because he's told me the same about bike power on two seperate occasions months apart. He seems to give honest advice, but doesn't even say "it's up to you, they're not as quite reliable and a bit harder to live with" ... he says "forget about bike engine cars, have a drive in a Duratech with 200bhp!"
I'm confused, people on forums are biased, and whilst they try to help, everyone (quite rightly) has their own opinion... and so everyone points in different directions !
Maybe I just head for Tiger and get some drives.
Paul
I'm finding it a little difficult to understand why that is, I don't suppose it's simply because he's trying to shift a glut of car engines or something like that simply because he's told me the same about bike power on two seperate occasions months apart. He seems to give honest advice, but doesn't even say "it's up to you, they're not as quite reliable and a bit harder to live with" ... he says "forget about bike engine cars, have a drive in a Duratech with 200bhp!"
I'm confused, people on forums are biased, and whilst they try to help, everyone (quite rightly) has their own opinion... and so everyone points in different directions !
Maybe I just head for Tiger and get some drives.
Paul
carpetpaul said:
What do you think of Tiger sports cars telling me to stay away from (their) bike powered cars ?
Paul
I cant understand that as their BEC cars seem to be very popular, Why just Tiger? Try MK, Stuart Taylor (mine
) MNR Vortx, Luego, DAX, all very good with BEC cars aswell.I'd heard of Caterham, Westfield, Dax, Tiger.....I havent heard of the others, forgive me for sounding narrow minded, I'm not a kit-car expert but would like to stick with one of the names I know.
As for Tiger he said ( I daren't post more of this private message, but literally he said "again FORGET bike power"
confused ? - I am totally
might look at DAX too as a second option, providing they do factory builds
Paul
As for Tiger he said ( I daren't post more of this private message, but literally he said "again FORGET bike power"
confused ? - I am totally
might look at DAX too as a second option, providing they do factory builds
Paul
Paul,
I have had a similar response from Westfield, don't look at a BEC. I was attracted by the 0-60 times of a BEC, but on discussion with the chaps at Westfield it was obvious that because I will probably be doing very little track time, a BEC wouldn't suit me. Perhaps this is the the reason you have received this advice from Tiger? A 2 litre Duratec is definately the way to go for a road car.
Cheers
Phil
I have had a similar response from Westfield, don't look at a BEC. I was attracted by the 0-60 times of a BEC, but on discussion with the chaps at Westfield it was obvious that because I will probably be doing very little track time, a BEC wouldn't suit me. Perhaps this is the the reason you have received this advice from Tiger? A 2 litre Duratec is definately the way to go for a road car.
Cheers
Phil
I have a 'Blade powered MK Indy, and it's tremendous fun. Whether you go BEC or CEC depends how you plan to use it. If you plan to do plenty of track days, definately BEC. If you plan to have plenty of fun on twisty roads then it's personal taste. If you plan on cruising/touring then stick to the CEC.
As for usage, the BEC is a lot happier when you're going for it. It's not a huge problem in traffic, though not as easy as CEC. The clutch (with uprated springs, I have Barnett springs from a Blackbird in my Blade) is very binary. I still struggle to get good quick starts but I haven't had much chance to play in the dry as yet. As for normal setting off just let it slip plenty and it's a nice smooth action.
One thing I don't like is hill starts etc, holding the biting point just isn't fun. I use my handbrake a lot more than I would in any "normal" car.
However I bought the car for fun, so I plan my routes to avoid traffic/hillstarts etc.
But for out-and-out fun on twisties (ie 30-80mph), you can't beat a BEC.
As for usage, the BEC is a lot happier when you're going for it. It's not a huge problem in traffic, though not as easy as CEC. The clutch (with uprated springs, I have Barnett springs from a Blackbird in my Blade) is very binary. I still struggle to get good quick starts but I haven't had much chance to play in the dry as yet. As for normal setting off just let it slip plenty and it's a nice smooth action.
One thing I don't like is hill starts etc, holding the biting point just isn't fun. I use my handbrake a lot more than I would in any "normal" car.
However I bought the car for fun, so I plan my routes to avoid traffic/hillstarts etc.
But for out-and-out fun on twisties (ie 30-80mph), you can't beat a BEC.
Personaly i would take very little advise from any manufacturer, they are biased. I would rather base my opinions on others personal experience and feedback from owners of a wider range of cars. Get out there and take a ride or drive in them, poke around and then make your decision. Get to a car show (May bank holiday Sunday and Monday at Stoneleigh near Coventry) and speak to them and look around.
You make the choice of engine for what you want to do with the car. At the end of the day you dont go into Fords and ask for a Focus ST to be told the TDCi is a better car for you as a toy and weekend fun.
I am undecided myself about what next car to have, but whatever it is it will be special to me. As it is now i enjoy my BEC and it has been 100% reliable.
You make the choice of engine for what you want to do with the car. At the end of the day you dont go into Fords and ask for a Focus ST to be told the TDCi is a better car for you as a toy and weekend fun.
I am undecided myself about what next car to have, but whatever it is it will be special to me. As it is now i enjoy my BEC and it has been 100% reliable.
carpetpaul said:
I'm confused, people on forums are biased, and whilst they try to help, everyone (quite rightly) has their own opinion... and so everyone points in different directions !
I can't imagine why Tiger would say to avoid BECs, must be that he had bad experience of them at some point. Thre were some problems when people first started using them and Tiger were one of the original companies using them IIRC.
I test drove a couple of Tigers before I bought the Dax kit, an older car with a Pinto engine and a newer car with a Zetec with twin 45's for which he claimed about 180bhp IIRC. Neither did anything for me at all, probably great cars for other people but really left me feeling like I'd had a wasted journey. Went for a ride in the Dax demonstrator and I then knew exactly what I wanted. A BEC is an exhilirating drive, you come away feeling alive, buzzing, awake and ready to go again, nothing like it.
They're not for long distance, I wouldn't drive mine to Scotland from SE England, I would have done 10 years ago but not now. They are not for taking the wife to a restaurant after she's had her hair done, that's a bad move, but for pure driving pleasure and genuine performance, there's nothing this side of an F40 or a GSXR1000 to beat them.
Dax will do whatever you want, you can buy just a bare chassis, a complete kit or a finished car, have a chat with Peter Walker or Gary Sanders. Gary is the test driver and will take you out in any of the demonstrators, they've got an R1 and a ZX12 at the moment I think.
I've got a blade engined MK Indy. It's great out on country roads and on track is magnificent but it can be tiresome through towns, at least until you learn how to move off smoothly every time. As others have mentioned, when you upgrade the clutch it becomes very binary. It's now not really like a car clutch at all, but is still perfectly manageable. For all the same reasons others have pointed out the driving experience is brilliant, I wouldn't want it watered down. I'm so convinced that I'm currently building a collection of parts to make another one sometime next year. More power this time
I have no experience of tiger but I'm surprised they don't want to sell you a BEC. They advertise the B6 heavily in the mags. I also saw a twin engined one go rather well at Anglesey last year! There are plenty of more open minded kit makers out there, you just need to open yours enough to have a proper look
I have no experience of tiger but I'm surprised they don't want to sell you a BEC. They advertise the B6 heavily in the mags. I also saw a twin engined one go rather well at Anglesey last year! There are plenty of more open minded kit makers out there, you just need to open yours enough to have a proper look
sound like you want a Dax with a busa engine in...... for me this would be the Ultimate 7.
I've gone for an Indy with an R1 engine in as its purelly a cheap fun car (under 6K to build).
IMO if its spec'd carefully then reliability will be mostly down to how well the car is built and then maintained...
I've gone for an Indy with an R1 engine in as its purelly a cheap fun car (under 6K to build).
IMO if its spec'd carefully then reliability will be mostly down to how well the car is built and then maintained...
Tiger's are too heavy and they know it. A bike engine wouldn't fizz in that chassis. I was looking for a car engined car, and found the Tiger lacked ultimate agility, even if the Zetec wafted it along quite well. I bought a Raw Striker, a much better packaged and lighter car with more agility, and a very good track pedigree - unlike the Tiger. Raw have a bike (?blade) engined demonstrator too and are campaigning a 'busa race car. In fact, they recently had a bike engined car for sale at reduced price.
I'm building an R1 powered Mac#1 Worx. Looked at a few at some of the shows but liked their cars and they are fairly close to me. It's going together nicely so far, mainly electrics and bodywork left to do. Sold a Cerbera to do this so hoping for better performance if slightly less comfort.
I'm building a Fisher Fury R1 primarily for road use. Can't think why you were told to avoid bike engines though. Performance is awesome as it will be around 420Kg in weight. I can think of more practical cars but if you want practicality, buy an MX5.
Loads of info on my web site:
www.robcollingridge.com/kitcar/
Rob
www.robcollingridge.com/kitcar
Loads of info on my web site:
www.robcollingridge.com/kitcar/
Rob
www.robcollingridge.com/kitcar
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