Police Drivers, are they getting better or worse?
Discussion
Anybody know if there have been many convictions against any police officers in Britain, for causing fatalities, by dangerous driving. ( They may have been using their 'safer' two way radios when these accidents happened or was it a case that maybe excessive speed was a factor.) If the fatality figures on Britain's roads are to be improved, i think our BiB's should be leading by example!
See news report below from Guardian, makes interesting reading doesn't it:-
Sharp rise in fatal crashes involving police cars
Rosie Cowan, crime correspondent
Saturday November 19, 2005
The Guardian
The number of people killed in road accidents involving police vehicles has risen by over a fifth in a year, figures out today show. Forty-four people died in police car-related incidents in England and Wales in the past year, up from 36 such deaths in the previous 12 months, and a dramatic increase on the 2000-01 figure of 17.
See news report below from Guardian, makes interesting reading doesn't it:-
Sharp rise in fatal crashes involving police cars
Rosie Cowan, crime correspondent
Saturday November 19, 2005
The Guardian
The number of people killed in road accidents involving police vehicles has risen by over a fifth in a year, figures out today show. Forty-four people died in police car-related incidents in England and Wales in the past year, up from 36 such deaths in the previous 12 months, and a dramatic increase on the 2000-01 figure of 17.
gilberninvader said:
Anybody know if there have been many convictions against any police officers in Britain, for causing fatalities, by dangerous driving. ( They may have been using their 'safer' two way radios when these accidents happened or was it a case that maybe excessive speed was a factor.) If the fatality figures on Britain's roads are to be improved, i think our BiB's should be leading by example!
See news report below from Guardian, makes interesting reading doesn't it:-
Sharp rise in fatal crashes involving police cars
Rosie Cowan, crime correspondent
Saturday November 19, 2005
The Guardian
The number of people killed in road accidents involving police vehicles has risen by over a fifth in a year, figures out today show. Forty-four people died in police car-related incidents in England and Wales in the past year, up from 36 such deaths in the previous 12 months, and a dramatic increase on the 2000-01 figure of 17.
What were most of the deaths though ?
Last time I looked the people most likely to be killed were those in a car being pursued by Police who failed to stop & then lost control. The Police car actually not striking these at all, but they are still counted as fatal POLCOLLs merely because of the presence of the Police vehicle.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 20th April 20:29
Absolutely correct. In the vast majority of cases it is the drunk/drugged/criminal driving the fleeing car that dies. The media will always sensationalise a road death where the Police are involved as it's always a good excuse to have a go at the Old Bill.
Broadly speaking I think driver training has been fairly consistent. It ebbs and flows a bit - e.g. c15 years ago we scrapped the 2 week basic course for all drivers. Our stats got a bit worse for more minor knocks etc... bad for public image, more H & S emphasis in these times - the course was reintroduced about 8 years ago.
In my force things seem to be tightening up at the Standard/Advanced level. We are seeing a lot more students fail than we used to. Not a bad thing IMO - I've been in an area car with a few drivers who IMO shouldn't have passed a standard car course.
Broadly speaking I think driver training has been fairly consistent. It ebbs and flows a bit - e.g. c15 years ago we scrapped the 2 week basic course for all drivers. Our stats got a bit worse for more minor knocks etc... bad for public image, more H & S emphasis in these times - the course was reintroduced about 8 years ago.
In my force things seem to be tightening up at the Standard/Advanced level. We are seeing a lot more students fail than we used to. Not a bad thing IMO - I've been in an area car with a few drivers who IMO shouldn't have passed a standard car course.
I report 'incidents' involving police cars as my job ..... just to give a taste of what is / can be recorded I will detail one example that I dealt with.
This was one counted as what is called a possible fatal vicinity only collision. It was recorded as a 'polcoll' as the rules require. It involved a police Vauxhall Vectra driven by an advanced driver.
The police were sitting at the side of the road at 1am in a side street having a coffee. They saw a car come through a no entry directly in front of them. The driver of the police car had his window down and asked the other driver - who was close and also had their window down - to stop so they could speak to him. This other driver acknowledged the request but then made off at speed, turning it's lights off. The police car, by the time they had started the engine was so far away that all they ever saw were brake lights of the other car in the distance.
The car which made off attempted to go round a bend some distance away, too quickly and crashed into railings. The driver of this car sustained serious head injuries.
At least one minute later the police car came round the same bend having lost sight of the car that had - by now - crashed, finding the car, etc, etc Two independant witnesses told me the police car was so far behind that they had time to ring for an ambulance on their mobile. One said he though the police car was on another call as it was so far behind.
The police driver at no stage got the registration of the car which made off, nor was he ever 'in pursuit' though he was trained and allowed to do so.
Because the car which made off did so 'owing to the presence of a police car on a road' the matter was treated incredibly seriously - aside from the crash itself which would always be treated as serious given the injuries. The police driver was relieved from driving, the local police commander was woken at home and informed of the incident, an ACPO rank officer separate to the Borough was informed, the Complaints branch informed and consideration given to informing the IPCC as well.
The report on the police drivers actions was, as a matter of course, passed by the CPS to consider whether they would prosecute the police driver.
This is, as I said earlier, an example of one of the incidents contained in the 'official' figures as recorded and counts effectively as a serious collision involving police. I would ask you if you think the standard of police driving had anything to do with it? Could the police driver have done anything differently?
People need to be aware of what is contained in the figures ! The official side nor the police hide how they are made up but the press present brief details that I think can be misleading.... which is a shame. Driving police cars in pursuits is not easy and when the car you are pursuing crashes it is often the police drier who has to worry about being prosecuted. Do you think this officer should have been prosecuted? He stated to me as a result of what happened that night he never wanted to drive a police car again. He wasn't upset with the way he was treated by me but got a shock with how it was treated as a whole.
Beware of just looking at the figures without knowing exactly what they mean.
This was one counted as what is called a possible fatal vicinity only collision. It was recorded as a 'polcoll' as the rules require. It involved a police Vauxhall Vectra driven by an advanced driver.
The police were sitting at the side of the road at 1am in a side street having a coffee. They saw a car come through a no entry directly in front of them. The driver of the police car had his window down and asked the other driver - who was close and also had their window down - to stop so they could speak to him. This other driver acknowledged the request but then made off at speed, turning it's lights off. The police car, by the time they had started the engine was so far away that all they ever saw were brake lights of the other car in the distance.
The car which made off attempted to go round a bend some distance away, too quickly and crashed into railings. The driver of this car sustained serious head injuries.
At least one minute later the police car came round the same bend having lost sight of the car that had - by now - crashed, finding the car, etc, etc Two independant witnesses told me the police car was so far behind that they had time to ring for an ambulance on their mobile. One said he though the police car was on another call as it was so far behind.
The police driver at no stage got the registration of the car which made off, nor was he ever 'in pursuit' though he was trained and allowed to do so.
Because the car which made off did so 'owing to the presence of a police car on a road' the matter was treated incredibly seriously - aside from the crash itself which would always be treated as serious given the injuries. The police driver was relieved from driving, the local police commander was woken at home and informed of the incident, an ACPO rank officer separate to the Borough was informed, the Complaints branch informed and consideration given to informing the IPCC as well.
The report on the police drivers actions was, as a matter of course, passed by the CPS to consider whether they would prosecute the police driver.
This is, as I said earlier, an example of one of the incidents contained in the 'official' figures as recorded and counts effectively as a serious collision involving police. I would ask you if you think the standard of police driving had anything to do with it? Could the police driver have done anything differently?
People need to be aware of what is contained in the figures ! The official side nor the police hide how they are made up but the press present brief details that I think can be misleading.... which is a shame. Driving police cars in pursuits is not easy and when the car you are pursuing crashes it is often the police drier who has to worry about being prosecuted. Do you think this officer should have been prosecuted? He stated to me as a result of what happened that night he never wanted to drive a police car again. He wasn't upset with the way he was treated by me but got a shock with how it was treated as a whole.
Beware of just looking at the figures without knowing exactly what they mean.
Thought this would invoke some responses by our police force, you are connected to the force aren't you VonHuson.( I take it this is the name your known as in the nick) This would explain your prolific posts of over 1000 in a month, sure your not employed to 'hype-up' the virtues of speed cameras etc.
By the way sorry I don't know the split in the numbers of police/public fatality figures; where police were involved in the accidents, do you? As I'm not on the force myself and have no access to this information.
You claim that the majority are caused by drivers refusing to stop. Is it not policy in some forces that a pursuit is called off, if it involves excessive speed through built-up areas.
Thus many of the fatalities involving police pursuits could have been prevented if called off earlier. Therefore the old 'red-mist' syndrome must still live on unless you have another explanation.
Also I'm just informing others in the same way our camera partnerships publish their stats, and claim that they are reducing fatalities by the introduction of speed cameras, which they clearly do not do. (see other forums on ph for proof!)
By the way sorry I don't know the split in the numbers of police/public fatality figures; where police were involved in the accidents, do you? As I'm not on the force myself and have no access to this information.
You claim that the majority are caused by drivers refusing to stop. Is it not policy in some forces that a pursuit is called off, if it involves excessive speed through built-up areas.
Thus many of the fatalities involving police pursuits could have been prevented if called off earlier. Therefore the old 'red-mist' syndrome must still live on unless you have another explanation.
Also I'm just informing others in the same way our camera partnerships publish their stats, and claim that they are reducing fatalities by the introduction of speed cameras, which they clearly do not do. (see other forums on ph for proof!)
gilberninvader said:
Thought this would invoke some responses by our police force, you are connected to the force aren't you VonHuson.( I take it this is the name your known as in the nick) This would explain your prolific posts of over 1000 in a month, sure your not employed to 'hype-up' the virtues of speed cameras etc.
I don't see how VHs post here connects him to the police force, he merely mentions available figures.
gilberninvader said:
You claim that the majority are caused by drivers refusing to stop. Is it not policy in some forces that a pursuit is called off, if it involves excessive speed through built-up areas.
Thus many of the fatalities involving police pursuits could have been prevented if called off earlier.
Well yes, obviously if people crash through panic / lack of skill / sheer stupidity when being followed by the police, then if the police call off, then there is a lesser chance they might do that
gilberninvader said:
Therefore the old 'red-mist' syndrome must still live on unless you have another explanation.
It doesn't logically follow that the police driver has "red mist syndrome" - more likely the pursued!
>> Edited by tvrgit on Thursday 20th April 21:49
It is hardly logical to say that casualties could be prevented if pursuits were called off earlier. Many pursuits are called off, in the majority of cases by the police driver themselves when judging how dangerously the subject vehicle is being driven. Of course red mist is an issue but I can honestly say (after 8 weeks of driver training over the years) that it is usually the person failing to stop who suffers the red mist and becomes hell bent on getting away regardless of the risk that poses to anyone else, rather than the Officer at the wheel of the Police car.
I would further evidence that by the many many more people driving stolen and/or illegal cars who manage to kill themselves and innocent others on a daily basis, all on their own. The example of the twice the drink drive limit yob who managed to kill himself, his four passengers and the driver of the car he hit when driving dangerously on Hampshire roads earlier this year.
I would further evidence that by the many many more people driving stolen and/or illegal cars who manage to kill themselves and innocent others on a daily basis, all on their own. The example of the twice the drink drive limit yob who managed to kill himself, his four passengers and the driver of the car he hit when driving dangerously on Hampshire roads earlier this year.
Check out Vans other postings for corroboration, if he's not in some way connected to the police force,let him tell us himself , you don't need to protect his connection. Which clearly he feels he needs to do as he only has a nickname in his profile...and it would be nice to know what angle he's coming from!
I agree the pursued would suffer from 'red-mist' syndrome but so to would some poorly trained and inexperienced police drivers in pursuit.
Therefore i repeat some police pursuits should be called off to save lives. do you agree
I agree the pursued would suffer from 'red-mist' syndrome but so to would some poorly trained and inexperienced police drivers in pursuit.
Therefore i repeat some police pursuits should be called off to save lives. do you agree
gilberninvader said:
Thought this would invoke some responses by our police force, you are connected to the force aren't you VonHuson.( I take it this is the name your known as in the nick) This would explain your prolific posts of over 1000 in a month, sure your not employed to 'hype-up' the virtues of speed cameras etc.
By the way sorry I don't know the split in the numbers of police/public fatality figures; where police were involved in the accidents, do you? As I'm not on the force myself and have no access to this information.
You claim that the majority are caused by drivers refusing to stop. Is it not policy in some forces that a pursuit is called off, if it involves excessive speed through built-up areas.
Thus many of the fatalities involving police pursuits could have been prevented if called off earlier. Therefore the old 'red-mist' syndrome must still live on unless you have another explanation.
Also I'm just informing others in the same way our camera partnerships publish their stats, and claim that they are reducing fatalities by the introduction of speed cameras, which they clearly do not do. (see other forums on ph for proof!)
As already eluded to by others above, Police officers are held accountable for the decisions they make in relation to pursuits. Dynamic risk assessments are carried out by the officers involved & not only them but by the control room staff managing the pursuits. As such this provides a safeguard that more than one person can terminate a pursuit & the decision of any of those is binding on others.
What is your proposal, that Police don't pursue any vehicles ?
If that's what the public really want, then I wouldn't doubt that in the fullness of time that is what they could get. Why not go further & say that they should have no speed or red light exemptions as well ?
There will always be risks associated with pursuits & attending emergency calls & Police officers receive the best training available in managing those risks.
Ultimately it's society's decision as to what freedom they give the Police in dealing with that & the management of those risks.
I think most people would acknowledge they want the Police to be able to do those things & they'd like the Police accountable for the decisions they make (which is where we are at the moment).
From the 2002 Home Office report into fatal collisions (1998-2001.)
In 24 fatality pursuits.
In 11 the fleeing vehicle hit another car.
In 10 the fleeing vehicle hit a stationary object.
In 1 the fleeing vehicle hit a pedestrian.
In 2 the fleeing vehicle hit a Police car.
No Police vehicles hit pedestrians.
No Police vehicles hit other cars.
In 29 fatality follows.
In 9 the fleeing vehicle hit another vehicle.
In 17 the fleeing vehicle hit a stationary object.
In 2 the fleeing vehicle hit pedestrians.
In 0 the fleeing vehicle hit a Police car.
No Police vehicles hit pedestrians.
1 Police car hit another car.
Of the fleeing vehicle drivers that could be tested
56.3% tested positive for alcohol.
24.1% for cannabis.
10% for Ecstasy.
6.9% for Benzodiazepines.
6.9% for Cocaine.
3.4% for Opiates.
3.4% for Amphetamines.
With regard to overall fatalities on our roads, last year's figures (for 2004) saw 3221 fatalities on our roads. This is the lowest number in a year since records began and was 188 better than next best year.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 20th April 23:05
Well, twice now on the M'way, I've notice (going the opposite way) a marked police 4x4 sitting around 12-18 ft from the rear of another car in front. Not slowing to pull over, no B&Ts, just "cruising" about their business.
It's only recently I've noticed this - probably due to spending more time on the forums than before, and reading/being aware of more things than previously.
Still, it is rather disconcerting as we expect these guys to be the standard by which we should judge ourselves.
It's only recently I've noticed this - probably due to spending more time on the forums than before, and reading/being aware of more things than previously.
Still, it is rather disconcerting as we expect these guys to be the standard by which we should judge ourselves.
Sorry Von did i touch a nerve, you must either be on the force or a retired officer!
Let me know as it makes a difference to my views on your comments, and how others will perceive what you say.
Why did you select the Home Office report from 4 years ago, have things improved or worsened since then?
And by the way i don't advocate we stop all pursuits, just the ones where you perceive you may endanger other road users or pedestrians.
Let me know as it makes a difference to my views on your comments, and how others will perceive what you say.
Why did you select the Home Office report from 4 years ago, have things improved or worsened since then?
And by the way i don't advocate we stop all pursuits, just the ones where you perceive you may endanger other road users or pedestrians.
gilberninvader said:
Sorry Von did i touch a nerve, you must either be on the force or a retired officer!
Let me know as it makes a difference to my views on your comments, and how others will perceive what you say.
Why did you select the Home Office report from 4 years ago, have things improved or worsened since then?
And by the way i don't advocate we stop all pursuits, just the ones where you perceive you may endanger other road users or pedestrians.
There is no nerve touched with me, believe me you can't wind me up over all this. Try if you want (if that is your intent), but I promise you won't make that happen. You are entitled to express your views & I mine, it's not going to affect my life greatly though if we differ or are in agreement.
I gave figures from that report because that is the latest report on fatal POLCOLLS I have to hand.
As I've already said, dynamic risk assessments happen in all pursuits & more than one person has the power to terminate them where that is deemed the right thing to do in the circumstances.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 20th April 23:23
Well I can tell you they have fallen (not gone up) from the figures in 2001-2, I just haven't got the break down about who hit what, that you were enquiring about.
The figures you have quoted are all skewed.
The 44 happened in 2001-2 & the 17 happened in 1998-99
>> Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 20th April 23:32
The figures you have quoted are all skewed.
The 44 happened in 2001-2 & the 17 happened in 1998-99
>> Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 20th April 23:32
john57 said:
<stuff>
I guess that in today's world we have to accept that an incident like this must be investigated. It's part of being transparent, open and honest (now why does that remind me of politicians?).
However, I do hope that the police driver was not made to suffer and was totally exonerated. Can you tell us the outcome?
That may be so vh but I could have sworn I saw data from Paul on the SafeSpeed site regarding an increase in polacs (or whatever other indicator was used) in recent years ... and had these links saved.
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They should be read in the light of john57's comments about how 'police involvement' can be interpreted and the reliability of media reports. Also, thought there was a reasonably good tie in between polac rates and training levels. Awaiting correction or confirmation.
Click1
Click2
Click3
Click4
Click5
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Click8
They should be read in the light of john57's comments about how 'police involvement' can be interpreted and the reliability of media reports. Also, thought there was a reasonably good tie in between polac rates and training levels. Awaiting correction or confirmation.
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