Ford Sierra Cosworth research, b4 taking plunge
Discussion
Hi all from Switzerland,
I'm considering the aquisition of a Sierra Cosworth 4x4 4-door and, as part of my pre-purchase research, would like to here any experiences, caveats, hints or howls from fellow members before taking the plunge.
The car is a 1992 2.0l, 220hp model, black with grey cloth, air-con and 77,000 miles for 12,000 Swiss Francs (£5,217). Check it out here: (sorry about the French) [url] www.autoscout24.ch/search/detail.asp?id=985874&language=fra[/url].
Thanks for the help.
David
I'm considering the aquisition of a Sierra Cosworth 4x4 4-door and, as part of my pre-purchase research, would like to here any experiences, caveats, hints or howls from fellow members before taking the plunge.
The car is a 1992 2.0l, 220hp model, black with grey cloth, air-con and 77,000 miles for 12,000 Swiss Francs (£5,217). Check it out here: (sorry about the French) [url] www.autoscout24.ch/search/detail.asp?id=985874&language=fra[/url].
Thanks for the help.
David
John, are Cosworths in that condition really going for £2k over there? It'd be well worth bringing them back here and stripping 'em for parts.
David, if you're unsure about Cosworths in general, I can't recommend them highly enough – there's virtually nothing that can touch them for the money, and IMO you need an STi to get an Impreza that's as good.
The only things I would say against them are the image, parts being ridiculously expensive and hard to find (considering it's a bloody Sierra), and the very fine engine needing regular maintenance (and loads of fuel).
Oh yes, and get a RWD - much, much more fun, especially in winter.
David, if you're unsure about Cosworths in general, I can't recommend them highly enough – there's virtually nothing that can touch them for the money, and IMO you need an STi to get an Impreza that's as good.
The only things I would say against them are the image, parts being ridiculously expensive and hard to find (considering it's a bloody Sierra), and the very fine engine needing regular maintenance (and loads of fuel).
Oh yes, and get a RWD - much, much more fun, especially in winter.
Spoonman: I've been checking around the web and in papers and the prices tend to range between £3400 for a crapped out, high miles, low power '90 to £5000 for a well kept, lower mileage, 220HP '92. But, these prices are from the Geneva region and John is up north near Germany If he can tell me where to find one for £2k, I'm there.
Having been a BMW man for most of my 30 years, I learned on, and learned to love, RWD. But for a while now I've had a hankering for a rallye style 4x4. I don't like FWD, even though I've owned two Minis so far, but I guess they don't count, really. Driver schools have got me on this efficiency is faster kick, donuts just don't do the trick anymore
I spoke with a local dealer who is also a rallye pilot in the Swiss Championship, he had nothing but good things to say about the Sierra Cossie. BTW: his everyday car is a '92 Sierra Cossie, when not running his Escort Cossie Maxi.
According to him, engine maintenance can be minimized (and thus cost on the expensive, non-Sierra-standard bits) by warming up properly before unleashing Hell i.e. shifting under 3000 rpm until the temp guage says GO. He also explained that the same trick can be used to save gas, when just toodling around town, shift under 3000 rpm.
Here in southern Switzerland, even at £5000, the Sierra Cossie has the best 'bang for your buck' in this rallye style 4x4 category. You are hard pressed to find a good Subaru 2.0 Turbo WRX from the late nineties for under £8000 and they tend to have been beat on by the Posers that bought them.
What do mean by image? Looks? As far as the looks go, they are pretty plain, I kind of like the idea of slipping past unnoticed, albeit quickly, in a stealthy, black Sierra.
Now it's just a question of how much and where...
Thanks for the input guys.
Having been a BMW man for most of my 30 years, I learned on, and learned to love, RWD. But for a while now I've had a hankering for a rallye style 4x4. I don't like FWD, even though I've owned two Minis so far, but I guess they don't count, really. Driver schools have got me on this efficiency is faster kick, donuts just don't do the trick anymore
I spoke with a local dealer who is also a rallye pilot in the Swiss Championship, he had nothing but good things to say about the Sierra Cossie. BTW: his everyday car is a '92 Sierra Cossie, when not running his Escort Cossie Maxi.
According to him, engine maintenance can be minimized (and thus cost on the expensive, non-Sierra-standard bits) by warming up properly before unleashing Hell i.e. shifting under 3000 rpm until the temp guage says GO. He also explained that the same trick can be used to save gas, when just toodling around town, shift under 3000 rpm.
Here in southern Switzerland, even at £5000, the Sierra Cossie has the best 'bang for your buck' in this rallye style 4x4 category. You are hard pressed to find a good Subaru 2.0 Turbo WRX from the late nineties for under £8000 and they tend to have been beat on by the Posers that bought them.
What do mean by image? Looks? As far as the looks go, they are pretty plain, I kind of like the idea of slipping past unnoticed, albeit quickly, in a stealthy, black Sierra.
Now it's just a question of how much and where...
Thanks for the input guys.
Don't be put off earlier cars because of their supposed low power – most engines left the factory kicking out more than the quoted 204bhp because Cosworth never wanted to de-tune them so much. In fact, adding a decent exhaust and stage one chip simply takes one back up to the road spec it was always meant to have.
I ran a tweaked RWD Sierra Cosworth for years (and still have it, in pieces, in my garage, where it's been covered in dust for the past 18 months), and nothing this side of a Cerbera could get near it. It could even catch Evo VIs after they'd blasted off the line. And I won't sell it, even when I buy a Tamora.
The biggest problems I had were Ford dealers being unable to supply parts (very few are the same as a normal Sierra) without me providing the part numbers.
As for the image, in England you do tend do have to be fat, skinheaded, old, a car thief or a combination of all four to own a Cosworth. I'm none of the above, so people were always surprised to see me in it.
Having said all that, the car you've found sounds like a good example. Buy it, thrash it, keep it serviced and you'll love it for years; values surely can't drop any more now anyway.
Finally, rear-drivers are much more fun. They give a much bigger buzz, and IMO the T5 gearbox is far superior to the MT75.
I ran a tweaked RWD Sierra Cosworth for years (and still have it, in pieces, in my garage, where it's been covered in dust for the past 18 months), and nothing this side of a Cerbera could get near it. It could even catch Evo VIs after they'd blasted off the line. And I won't sell it, even when I buy a Tamora.
The biggest problems I had were Ford dealers being unable to supply parts (very few are the same as a normal Sierra) without me providing the part numbers.
As for the image, in England you do tend do have to be fat, skinheaded, old, a car thief or a combination of all four to own a Cosworth. I'm none of the above, so people were always surprised to see me in it.
Having said all that, the car you've found sounds like a good example. Buy it, thrash it, keep it serviced and you'll love it for years; values surely can't drop any more now anyway.
Finally, rear-drivers are much more fun. They give a much bigger buzz, and IMO the T5 gearbox is far superior to the MT75.
Part 1
Speaking of gearboxes: I called the Swiss dealer guy. The car I'm looking at was taken in on trade for a new Focus, so they've never serviced it before, but after a full check up and a hot run up the mountain he says that it is in perfect nick. However, apparently it has had its gearbox changed in the recent past. I asked him if they were fragile or what? He said no and told me that his Sierra has 220,000 km (132,000 miles) and has never needed the gearbox looked at or anything else other than normal service.
According to him the reason that the box might have been replaced, barring actual damage through misuse, is that less than scrupulous dealers convince naive Swiss clients that they have a delicate and exotic race car for the road. They get them to replace big cost items rather than just doing a proper service. The boxes are noisy do to their re-enforced nature and the general cacophony of 10-year-old rallye derived 4x4 technology. When the car doesn't silently slip by like a Merc S Classe, stupid Swiss clients take them to the dealer thinking something is wrong. The dealer then rips them off for whole new part. Healthy mechanical racket has never bothered me.
Speaking of gearboxes: I called the Swiss dealer guy. The car I'm looking at was taken in on trade for a new Focus, so they've never serviced it before, but after a full check up and a hot run up the mountain he says that it is in perfect nick. However, apparently it has had its gearbox changed in the recent past. I asked him if they were fragile or what? He said no and told me that his Sierra has 220,000 km (132,000 miles) and has never needed the gearbox looked at or anything else other than normal service.
According to him the reason that the box might have been replaced, barring actual damage through misuse, is that less than scrupulous dealers convince naive Swiss clients that they have a delicate and exotic race car for the road. They get them to replace big cost items rather than just doing a proper service. The boxes are noisy do to their re-enforced nature and the general cacophony of 10-year-old rallye derived 4x4 technology. When the car doesn't silently slip by like a Merc S Classe, stupid Swiss clients take them to the dealer thinking something is wrong. The dealer then rips them off for whole new part. Healthy mechanical racket has never bothered me.
Part 2
To better illustrate he told me the story of one of their clients, a Portugese gentleman living in Switzerland, who's Sierra Cosworth has 250,000 km (150,000 miles). He drives to Portugal every summer for vacation. While down there this time, someone told him that his turbo was making noise. Fearing a stranding blow up on the way home, he took it to the local Ford garage in Portugal. They made him replace the whole turbo for big bucks, but he managed to keep the old one. When he got back here, he took it to the Swiss dealer and it turns out there was nothing wrong with it, in perfect working order. Just noisy, that's all.
I suppose the fact that it has a new box, warranted or not, is just so much the better for me. Right?
How does this compare with your experience. I'm always wary of dealers, is he talking out his ass or is he kosher. Although, that fact that he rallyes his own cars and deals only in Ford does make me feel a little more comfortable, especially when it comes to getting eventual parts.
You should see the collection he's got, including a Ford RS200 Group B, what a beast. That has got to be one awesome ride.
To better illustrate he told me the story of one of their clients, a Portugese gentleman living in Switzerland, who's Sierra Cosworth has 250,000 km (150,000 miles). He drives to Portugal every summer for vacation. While down there this time, someone told him that his turbo was making noise. Fearing a stranding blow up on the way home, he took it to the local Ford garage in Portugal. They made him replace the whole turbo for big bucks, but he managed to keep the old one. When he got back here, he took it to the Swiss dealer and it turns out there was nothing wrong with it, in perfect working order. Just noisy, that's all.
I suppose the fact that it has a new box, warranted or not, is just so much the better for me. Right?
How does this compare with your experience. I'm always wary of dealers, is he talking out his ass or is he kosher. Although, that fact that he rallyes his own cars and deals only in Ford does make me feel a little more comfortable, especially when it comes to getting eventual parts.
You should see the collection he's got, including a Ford RS200 Group B, what a beast. That has got to be one awesome ride.
As with most cars, it usually depends how much hammer the 'box has been given, and how much power it's being forced to cope with.
My Sierra's done about 110,000 miles, and needs a gearbox rebuild (it's a T5) because a couple of synchros are worn. The thing is, it also needs a new clutch (sprung paddle jobbie), so it might as well have everything done while the 'box is out. It could be that this applies to 'your' car. It could also be that the dealer's talking bollocks.
Having said that, the MT75 (4x4) gearbox isn't great, and it'll be a bonus if it's had a rebuild.
Incidentally, here's a bit of trivia that might scare you: originally, Cosworth recommended engine rebuilds at 15,000 miles if the car was driven hard... Mine had one at 80-90,000, so is yours due for some work?
Look for the usual stuff like excessive oil consumption and listen out for nasty noises. If there's any piston slap and the dealer tries to tell you they all do that, he's having you on: only red top (rwd 205 block) engines do that.
Good luck.
My Sierra's done about 110,000 miles, and needs a gearbox rebuild (it's a T5) because a couple of synchros are worn. The thing is, it also needs a new clutch (sprung paddle jobbie), so it might as well have everything done while the 'box is out. It could be that this applies to 'your' car. It could also be that the dealer's talking bollocks.
Having said that, the MT75 (4x4) gearbox isn't great, and it'll be a bonus if it's had a rebuild.
Incidentally, here's a bit of trivia that might scare you: originally, Cosworth recommended engine rebuilds at 15,000 miles if the car was driven hard... Mine had one at 80-90,000, so is yours due for some work?
Look for the usual stuff like excessive oil consumption and listen out for nasty noises. If there's any piston slap and the dealer tries to tell you they all do that, he's having you on: only red top (rwd 205 block) engines do that.
Good luck.
Spoonman said: Incidentally, here's a bit of trivia that might scare you: originally, Cosworth recommended engine rebuilds at 15,000 miles if the car was driven hard... Mine had one at 80-90,000, so is yours due for some work?
Indeed, a not so trivial bit of trivia. Well 'mine' has 76,800 miles. I'll have to pay a lot of attention to the condition of the motor to avoid buying the privilege to spend a whole lot more...
You're shaking my confidence here, man...
I can recommend them, as I owned a 4x4 Saph Cossie too. Lovely car. Spoonman is right, about the boxes. A 2wd T5 box is much stronger as is the whole drive train compared to a 4wd MT75 box....but a nice std 4wd cossie should still cope with upto 350bhp...just depends how bad you're going to be on the clutch pedal. I believe both boxes can be slighty notchy or stiff when very cold, but get better when the engine is warmed up and ready to go. Your information is also correct about waiting for the engine and oil temps to be normal before giving it alot of throttle. Same when switching off. Don't switch off straight after a blast. You'll need to drive the last 4 miles at a steady pace, before switching off. This lets the turbo cool down. Check for a FULL service history. Oil Changes at every 3000miles help, but not essential. Check all aspects of any parts fitted. A stainless exhaust is great and should be no problem. I'd ask about the chip, the injectors (color), the type of head gasket/ head bolts and the suspension bushes too. Also check for smoke on cold start up. You might get black, blue/grey, or white or none. None and a small bit of white are ok. I upgraded my 4x4 Saphire to 330bhp still on the original T3 turbo. I would highly recomend buying a air charge (inlet) temp gauge (for the summer), boost gauge to monitor the engine side of things, if you are going to use the car harder than normal. Brakes are good on the car, but 330mm+ AP brakes on Saph can be fitted, and are fantastic 
My 330bhp 4 door cossie was a great family car which was used every day and with no major expenses at all for the year and half I owned it. Has a huge boot too Pay a visit to the forum on www.rsownersclub.co.uk if you wish.
Regards John S
>> Edited by John_S on Thursday 16th January 21:50
My 330bhp 4 door cossie was a great family car which was used every day and with no major expenses at all for the year and half I owned it. Has a huge boot too Pay a visit to the forum on www.rsownersclub.co.uk if you wish. Regards John S
>> Edited by John_S on Thursday 16th January 21:50
You should see the collection he's got, including a Ford RS200 Group B, what a beast. That has got to be one awesome ride.
He's either seriously dedicated to racing, or really fleecing his clients
What a git, I'd give a kidney for one of those (though it's probably only worth an A plate nova
)
Fatboy said:He's either seriously dedicated to racing, or really fleecing his clients
Part 1
Actually, Switzerland is a haven for finding really cool cars at great prices and dealers do very well here. Reason being that the I would classify the Swiss in two categories of car buyer:
1. The anal-retentive who change their car every few years and keep them in great shape. Proof: you wouldn't belive how many car washes there are here, almost every gas station and dealership has one.
2. The Posers (particularly Geneva) who must have the latest and greatest as soon as it comes out.
Coming from the States, I was surprised at how 100,000km (60,000 miles) a car is considered worthless, used up. They simply don't go great distances, the place is too small.
Part 2
You wouldn't believe the great rides that are stashed away in little mountain villages. Example: my Dad, big BMW fan and amateur vintage racer, bought Hans Stuck's Jagermeister sponsored BMW E21 320 Group V for practically nothing from a simple butcher in a tiny village north of Lausanne. Hidden away in his garage were another E21 320 Group V, Alan Jones' M1 Procar and crapped out Ferrari Testarossa.
The Swiss are also really into their driving and motorsports. Bizarre for a country that outlawed all racing tracks on Swiss soil in the '50s. Ask yourself how a land-locked country can lead the America's Cup in sailing too...?
Strangely, hill-climb/rallye events on semi-public roads are legal. I have an aquaintance who's mission in life is to create the Geneva Grand Prix. Every few years he ends up in front of the courts trying to recind the 'no race tracks law'. Of course, being a lawyer, he has the time, the connections and the cash.
You wouldn't believe the great rides that are stashed away in little mountain villages. Example: my Dad, big BMW fan and amateur vintage racer, bought Hans Stuck's Jagermeister sponsored BMW E21 320 Group V for practically nothing from a simple butcher in a tiny village north of Lausanne. Hidden away in his garage were another E21 320 Group V, Alan Jones' M1 Procar and crapped out Ferrari Testarossa.
The Swiss are also really into their driving and motorsports. Bizarre for a country that outlawed all racing tracks on Swiss soil in the '50s. Ask yourself how a land-locked country can lead the America's Cup in sailing too...?
Strangely, hill-climb/rallye events on semi-public roads are legal. I have an aquaintance who's mission in life is to create the Geneva Grand Prix. Every few years he ends up in front of the courts trying to recind the 'no race tracks law'. Of course, being a lawyer, he has the time, the connections and the cash.
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