Unhappy experience with the police
Discussion
Went to pick up a car from a dealer in Norwich on Sat the car had no tax, but before I left the dealers I phone my insurance and asked them to start the policy. (I’d rang up with all the cars details on the previous Thursday but didn’t take out the policy, once I was happy with the car I’d phone the insurance and they would be ready to go) Having driven about 35mins down the road - in the wrong direction 
- I was pulled over by the traffic 
They noted the no tax and said that the n/s rear wheel looked buckled. I was given a producer for the no tax and a vehicle defect form in order to have an MOT station look at the wheel and resolve whether the wheel was buckled or not. Sorted the vehicle defect form took my insurance documents and driving licence to the station where I was told that I was not insured at the time of my ticket 
………………………… !!!! The ticket reads 14:40 while my insurance reads 15:14, the insurance time is correct as my mobile phone bill proves that I rang up the insurance co at 15:11, however as I can not prove the time on the ticket is wrong and should have read 15:40 I have now been charged with failing to produce valid insurance and driving on the public road with no insurance 
Despite my trying to reason this through I am now waiting to receive a court summons 
I can’t believe it I’ve never had any points on my licence in the 11 years that I have been driving, I only ever had one producer before – they didn’t believe that a 18yr old could drive a BMW 318. Yet now am faced with a possible 9 points and fine .
I can just imagine how the phone conversation will go when next year I look for insurance “any claims within the last 5 years? Any convictions in the last 3 years err…… well just the 9 points, what are they for? Umm…….. driving on the public road with no road fund licence, failing to produce valid insurnace and driving on the public road with no insurance…. err hello, hello anyone there??…
While I accept that no road fund licence is my fault (though not having the insurance documents I could not have got the tax, and given that it was after 12:00 the post office was closed) to now be faced with such a harsh penalty when the only thing I have done is drive without tax (once the car was home it went straight in the garage until the insurance doc came thorough and the tax was purchased) has really dented an already scarred respect for the I know that they have a job to do, but their must be other cases that police resources are better off following up.
Sorry for the long rant but I had to get this off my chest ……
- I was pulled over by the traffic They noted the no tax and said that the n/s rear wheel looked buckled. I was given a producer for the no tax and a vehicle defect form in order to have an MOT station look at the wheel and resolve whether the wheel was buckled or not. Sorted the vehicle defect form took my insurance documents and driving licence to the station where I was told that I was not insured at the time of my ticket ………………………… !!!! The ticket reads 14:40 while my insurance reads 15:14, the insurance time is correct as my mobile phone bill proves that I rang up the insurance co at 15:11, however as I can not prove the time on the ticket is wrong and should have read 15:40 I have now been charged with failing to produce valid insurance and driving on the public road with no insurance Despite my trying to reason this through I am now waiting to receive a court summons I can’t believe it I’ve never had any points on my licence in the 11 years that I have been driving, I only ever had one producer before – they didn’t believe that a 18yr old could drive a BMW 318. Yet now am faced with a possible 9 points and fine .
I can just imagine how the phone conversation will go when next year I look for insurance “any claims within the last 5 years? Any convictions in the last 3 years err…… well just the 9 points, what are they for? Umm…….. driving on the public road with no road fund licence, failing to produce valid insurnace and driving on the public road with no insurance…. err hello, hello anyone there??…
While I accept that no road fund licence is my fault (though not having the insurance documents I could not have got the tax, and given that it was after 12:00 the post office was closed) to now be faced with such a harsh penalty when the only thing I have done is drive without tax (once the car was home it went straight in the garage until the insurance doc came thorough and the tax was purchased) has really dented an already scarred respect for the
I know that they have a job to do, but their must be other cases that police resources are better off following up. Sorry for the long rant but I had to get this off my chest ……
Sounds like a good plan to me. I thought they had to check that you had insurance before they let you drive off.
whoozit said: If the dealer can provide any proof of the time you took ownership of the car, that should be enough, surely? Any credit card slips/loan agreements entered into computer/time noted on receipts/salesman willing to state time of collection in writing?
MEMSDesign said:Sounds like a good plan to me. I thought they had to check that you had insurance before they let you drive off.
whoozit said: If the dealer can provide any proof of the time you took ownership of the car, that should be enough, surely? Any credit card slips/loan agreements entered into computer/time noted on receipts/salesman willing to state time of collection in writing?
Yep, good plan.. if you can PROVE you bought the car AFTER the time of the ticket... you should be OK.
Perhaps Madcop et al can offer some advice here...?
Remember that all you need to do is cast reasonable doubt on the date on the ticket. As mentioned, if the dealer will give you an affidavit about what time you picked up the car you'll be fine.
AFAIK the dealer has to check that you have insurance before driving the car off otherwise they could be implicated in assisting the law to be broken.
I'm sure madcop or someone will pop up and give the correct legal position.
Did you take "legal expenses" cover out with your insurance? They may well help in this case depending on the wording of the policy - certainly worth a check if you did.
J
AFAIK the dealer has to check that you have insurance before driving the car off otherwise they could be implicated in assisting the law to be broken.
I'm sure madcop or someone will pop up and give the correct legal position.
Did you take "legal expenses" cover out with your insurance? They may well help in this case depending on the wording of the policy - certainly worth a check if you did.
J
MEMSDesign said:Sounds like a good plan to me. I thought they had to check that you had insurance before they let you drive off.
whoozit said: If the dealer can provide any proof of the time you took ownership of the car, that should be enough, surely? Any credit card slips/loan agreements entered into computer/time noted on receipts/salesman willing to state time of collection in writing?
Not sure whether they can prevent you from driivng off with or without insurance. I only know that he did not raise the question of road fund licence/insurance or the lack there of before I drove off.
The private dealer was paid in cash, and though I have a receipt it does not state the time, only the date, and he is not willing to speculate a time as he can not 'recall the exact time of the transaction'.
My local station were very nice and felt that it would not go any further but, it was not their call and would be down to the police who made the stop. I would like to point out that at all times the officers involved had been very professional and polite - this thread is not a dig at the police just a personal vent of frustation at the impending blot on my clean record.
>> Edited by d_drinks on Tuesday 21st January 09:40
mondeoman said: Storm in a tea cup - if you can prove that you phoned the insurance co at the time you stated (a phone bill with their number on will suffice), then the insurnace stuff goes out the window. Stick to your story and talk to a solicitor - it'll go no-where.
He'd have to provide a link of evidence, though, which still needs dealer corroboration. Although the dealer can't remember the time, perhaps he'd be willing to say "approximately" or "between 2 and 3:30 pm" you purchased the car from him, and he recalls you calling the insurance company there and then to start cover This would then link up nicely with both the phone bill and the time on the cover note to give the evidence he needs.
When picking up a car under these circumstances, (as long as it's over 3yrs old), it's always worth booking it in for MOT at a garage near your destination. Then you are exempt from road tax for your journey. You can always cancel the MOT appointment once you've landed safely.
As for the time of the ticket - it sounds a bit fishy. If it was backdated in order to wind you up, and you can prove it, could that be seen as "attempting to pervert the course of justice"? It would be interesting to see the times noted on the tickets issued before and after yours.
As for the time of the ticket - it sounds a bit fishy. If it was backdated in order to wind you up, and you can prove it, could that be seen as "attempting to pervert the course of justice"? It would be interesting to see the times noted on the tickets issued before and after yours.
When you were stopped there is a good chance that the BiB did a PNC check or such like on you and or the car. If so then the time will be recorded somewhere in the police's own system, just a thought. OK a shot in the dark here... but might work..
BiB say you werent insured as your insurance started after they stopped you..
You phoned your insurance co at the time of sale from the garage to arrange insurance, regardless of time, can the garage guy vouch for this..
If this is true, then before the time of your insurance being arranged, did you own the car..? technically no, therefore do you have a fully comprehensive policy on another car that covers you third party for "vehicles not belonging to the policyholder".
Basically, before the call to your insurance co you were insured 3rd party on a different car policy... after the call to the insurance co you are insured on the correct policy..
Any good ?
Matt.
BiB say you werent insured as your insurance started after they stopped you..
You phoned your insurance co at the time of sale from the garage to arrange insurance, regardless of time, can the garage guy vouch for this..
If this is true, then before the time of your insurance being arranged, did you own the car..? technically no, therefore do you have a fully comprehensive policy on another car that covers you third party for "vehicles not belonging to the policyholder".
Basically, before the call to your insurance co you were insured 3rd party on a different car policy... after the call to the insurance co you are insured on the correct policy..
Any good ?
Matt.
Summarising the advice so far and adding suggestion of my own 
.
A. You need to get a solicitor.
B. You need to see if the garage owner will swear that you phoned the insurance company from his premises before leaving. Even if he can't remember the exact time.
C. Try and get evidence of the times of the PNC check and the times of the before and after tickets given by the officer.
D. See what times are written into the notebooks of the booking police officer and his partner (assuming he wasn't alone).
E. Check with you insurance company to see if they will give you a letter stating that they would have covered you in the circumstances (even if only 3rd party).
. A. You need to get a solicitor.
B. You need to see if the garage owner will swear that you phoned the insurance company from his premises before leaving. Even if he can't remember the exact time.
C. Try and get evidence of the times of the PNC check and the times of the before and after tickets given by the officer.
D. See what times are written into the notebooks of the booking police officer and his partner (assuming he wasn't alone).
E. Check with you insurance company to see if they will give you a letter stating that they would have covered you in the circumstances (even if only 3rd party).
All very laborious, and enlisting a solicitor will cost you (lots) for something that's unnecessary.
Plod has made a mistake, or deliberately been perverse.
See the Inspector to whom these officers report and make an official complaint. Give him all the details mentioned here. When he sees that his department is about to be made to look stupid, I bet he'll apologise and dump the case.
A quick look at times in records, including their pocket books, should convince him.
Plod has made a mistake, or deliberately been perverse.
See the Inspector to whom these officers report and make an official complaint. Give him all the details mentioned here. When he sees that his department is about to be made to look stupid, I bet he'll apologise and dump the case.
A quick look at times in records, including their pocket books, should convince him.
madcop said: What time were you actually stopped? You haven't posted that I don't think!
This wasn't left out for any reason. I was stopped at circa 15:30 the officers spent no more than 5-10mins talking with me before giving me the two forms. I wasn't asked to sign anything and didn't even look at the forms until I went to my local station to hand them over along with my insurance details, and drivers licence.
M@H said:
You phoned your insurance co at the time of sale from the garage to arrange insurance, regardless of time, can the garage guy vouch for this..
I phoned from my mobile standing on the garage forcourt while they went and check the money under a UV lamp. They are not willing to say that they heard me, which is fair play even that they didn't I'm not asking anyone to tell porkies for me.
If this is true, then before the time of your insurance being arranged, did you own the car..? technically no, therefore do you have a fully comprehensive policy on another car that covers you third party for "vehicles not belonging to the policyholder".
I am a named driver on my wifes policy for our other car. Given that the 'new' car is also in her name I ask my local station whether I would have been covered under that policy - the answer is no as there are two different policies one for each car, they do not overlap each other or cover the other car.
Basically, before the call to your insurance co you were insured 3rd party on a different car policy... after the call to the insurance co you are insured on the correct policy..
Any good ?
Matt.
Not sure whether the 'other' insurance is a solution am speaking with my insurance company about this.
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