Suspension set-up
Discussion
Another R6 owner (Chilli) mentioned to me on another thread that I should have the suspension set-up by a proffessional outfit to make the bike 'feel' better.
Now, as a newbie I don't really understand how much it could be changed & what the outcome would be.
I use the bike a couple of days a week & a bit on weekends, however, I am intending doing maybe 15 or 20 trackdays this year with the bike.
I have done 2 trackdays so far & the bike feels way better than my abilities on its standard setting, so what would I gain from messing around with it ? I assume either road or track would suffer depending on which way I did the set-up ?
Should I just leave it, or is it really worth having someone look at it ? If so, anyone know a suitable place in Yorkshire ?
Cheers.
Hobo.
Now, as a newbie I don't really understand how much it could be changed & what the outcome would be.
I use the bike a couple of days a week & a bit on weekends, however, I am intending doing maybe 15 or 20 trackdays this year with the bike.
I have done 2 trackdays so far & the bike feels way better than my abilities on its standard setting, so what would I gain from messing around with it ? I assume either road or track would suffer depending on which way I did the set-up ?
Should I just leave it, or is it really worth having someone look at it ? If so, anyone know a suitable place in Yorkshire ?
Cheers.
Hobo.
Properly set up suspension can make a big difference, assuming it is not setup properly for you now? A good road setup should work well on the track and vice-versa but all setup is a compromise, ideally you need to make sure you've got the correct spring rates for your weight, otherwise you'll never get the best from it. I don't know anything about R6's but altering the setup on my 916 has made it feel better, even though it was pretty good before but 'fortunately' the standard spring rates were ideal for my weight.
Regarding experts in Yorkshire, I understand Mick Gardner Racing in Barnsley know their stuff www.mickgardnerracing.com/main.html
Regarding experts in Yorkshire, I understand Mick Gardner Racing in Barnsley know their stuff www.mickgardnerracing.com/main.html
Hobo,
I was told that the R6 basically comes off the production line set up for the track. Darren knows what he's talking about..I believe he was british champ at some kinda level, and currently works in the pit crew for the British Superbikes. He adjusted mine for a) my weight and b) for road riding. He said the adjustments he made were rather sunstantial, and I noticed a huge difference in the "feel" afterwards...much more confidence after that.
Cheers.
ps - Just for your info he also said that it was the best production bike he'd ever ridden and it would outperfoem a lot of 1000's on the track
I was told that the R6 basically comes off the production line set up for the track. Darren knows what he's talking about..I believe he was british champ at some kinda level, and currently works in the pit crew for the British Superbikes. He adjusted mine for a) my weight and b) for road riding. He said the adjustments he made were rather sunstantial, and I noticed a huge difference in the "feel" afterwards...much more confidence after that.
Cheers.
ps - Just for your info he also said that it was the best production bike he'd ever ridden and it would outperfoem a lot of 1000's on the track
setting up your suspension may reduce your lap time, but will it make you a faster rider? or just make your bike faster with you on it! I was given some advice last year at a trackday in Dubai, by John Clark. He was 5 times superbike champion in South Africa, so knows his stuff! I was on a 1989 CBR400RR, everyone else (apart from John, 1988gsxr)was on new stuff, his advice was to get track experience with the smaller bike, something that you can learn the lines on, and braking points. Something that you can learn to thrash and make you a fast rider on a slow bike.(it's also cheaper if you do get it wrong.) Then after a year or so, when you move upto a faster bike, you are a fast rider on a fast bike! The corner speed of the lighter bikes is awesome, and because your not scaring yourself so much whacking the throttle open, you are more relaxed, which also makes you faster. If someone else can ride your bike faster than you around the track, then work on your technique, not on the bike!
Desmo.
Desmo.
chilli said:
Hobo,
I was told that the R6 basically comes off the production line set up for the track. Darren knows what he's talking about..I believe he was british champ at some kinda level, and currently works in the pit crew for the British Superbikes. He adjusted mine for a) my weight and b) for road riding. He said the adjustments he made were rather sunstantial, and I noticed a huge difference in the "feel" afterwards...much more confidence after that.
Cheers.
ps - Just for your info he also said that it was the best production bike he'd ever ridden and it would outperfoem a lot of 1000's on the track
If it comes off the production line 'set up for the track' (i.e. for the 'average' weight rider, for a generic quality shock, etc), then it's no surprise that he had to make substantial adjustments!!
Personally, rather than paying someone to setup your bike, if you do a little reading into what theoretically works, it's not hard to make the adjustments yourself. There are only a few variables. From there on, you will know the effect that each adjustment has on the bike
PS ask him what championships he's won...
Interesting subject as my GSXR1000 feels light at the front, don't know if this feeling is just my lack of ability or not but at any rate, the bike feels like it would understeer if pushed hard. I wonder if changing the setup would help but lord knows how to do it - I would need a pro to look at it...
fergus said:
Hobo,
I was told that the R6 basically comes off the production line set up for the track. Darren knows what he's talking about..I believe he was british champ at some kinda level, and currently works in the pit crew for the British Superbikes. He adjusted mine for a) my weight and b) for road riding. He said the adjustments he made were rather sunstantial, and I noticed a huge difference in the "feel" afterwards...much more confidence after that.
Cheers.
ps - Just for your info he also said that it was the best production bike he'd ever ridden and it would outperfoem a lot of 1000's on the track
If it comes off the production line 'set up for the track' (i.e. for the 'average' weight rider, for a generic quality shock, etc), then it's no surprise that he had to make substantial adjustments!!
Personally, rather than paying someone to setup your bike, if you do a little reading into what theoretically works, it's not hard to make the adjustments yourself. There are only a few variables. From there on, you will know the effect that each adjustment has on the bike
PS ask him what championships he's won...
Cool, I'll ask around (we're not exactly on first name terms yet!)
Re the seting up yourself.........
Doubt us "newbies" would know where to look. Some recommended reading for those interested in tuning their own suspension.
"Motorcycle Tuning - Chassis" by the late John Robinson
This book, first published in 1990 provides an excellent overview of how and why a motorcycle behaves the way it does. The book was aimed at people modifying road bikes of the time for racing and contains a fair amount of basic mathematics (which may put some people off). It explains the complex interaction of the various components of a motorcycle clearly, in a very readable manor and remains my personal favourite on this subject. It will not tell you how many clicks to alter your suspension by, or which aftermarket shock is best...
John Robinson was the Technical Editor of Performance Bikes (back when the specialist press had something worthwhile to say) He understood how a motorcycle really works and could express complex engineering concepts in a way that were actually fun to read. He could also ride bloody well!
"The Sportsbike performance handbook" by Kevin Cameron
This book contains information on all aspects of tuning modern sports bike, including an excellent chapter on how suspension works. This book is more recent than John Robinson's book and is also less technical. If someone was only going to buy one book on how a motorcycle works this would be a good choice.
Kevin Cameron writes for Cycle World in America.
"The Racing motorcycle - Volume 1" by John Bradley
This book, subtitled "A technical guide for constructors" is really aimed at people who want to build their own bikes from the ground up. It covers gearing, chassis geometry, suspension and aerodynamics and is written in an easy to follow style. The chapters on suspension explain the how's and whys of spring preload particularly well. This book also contains a limited amount of mathematics.
(I really like this book. Note Volume 2 is all about construction materials and techniques and is less relevant here.)
John Bradley is a chartered engineer who has built and raced bikes for over 25 years.
"Motorcycle Design and Technology (How and Why)" by Gaetano Cocco
This book can be a little heavy going, perhaps because it is not written in the authors native language. It contains a fair bit of mathematics and is more theoretical and less practical than the other books in this list. It does however fill in some of the blanks left by the other books. If you read and enjoy the others, you will probable want to read this one too (just don't start with this one)
Gaetano Cocco designs motorcycles for Aprilia (so he clearly has a fair idea of how they work!)
"Motorcycle Tuning - Chassis" by the late John Robinson
This book, first published in 1990 provides an excellent overview of how and why a motorcycle behaves the way it does. The book was aimed at people modifying road bikes of the time for racing and contains a fair amount of basic mathematics (which may put some people off). It explains the complex interaction of the various components of a motorcycle clearly, in a very readable manor and remains my personal favourite on this subject. It will not tell you how many clicks to alter your suspension by, or which aftermarket shock is best...
John Robinson was the Technical Editor of Performance Bikes (back when the specialist press had something worthwhile to say) He understood how a motorcycle really works and could express complex engineering concepts in a way that were actually fun to read. He could also ride bloody well!
"The Sportsbike performance handbook" by Kevin Cameron
This book contains information on all aspects of tuning modern sports bike, including an excellent chapter on how suspension works. This book is more recent than John Robinson's book and is also less technical. If someone was only going to buy one book on how a motorcycle works this would be a good choice.
Kevin Cameron writes for Cycle World in America.
"The Racing motorcycle - Volume 1" by John Bradley
This book, subtitled "A technical guide for constructors" is really aimed at people who want to build their own bikes from the ground up. It covers gearing, chassis geometry, suspension and aerodynamics and is written in an easy to follow style. The chapters on suspension explain the how's and whys of spring preload particularly well. This book also contains a limited amount of mathematics.
(I really like this book. Note Volume 2 is all about construction materials and techniques and is less relevant here.)
John Bradley is a chartered engineer who has built and raced bikes for over 25 years.
"Motorcycle Design and Technology (How and Why)" by Gaetano Cocco
This book can be a little heavy going, perhaps because it is not written in the authors native language. It contains a fair bit of mathematics and is more theoretical and less practical than the other books in this list. It does however fill in some of the blanks left by the other books. If you read and enjoy the others, you will probable want to read this one too (just don't start with this one)
Gaetano Cocco designs motorcycles for Aprilia (so he clearly has a fair idea of how they work!)
I would'nt trust any pro' that I did'nt know to set a bike up for you. My Son had a so called Ohlins expert setup his race bike whilst at Brands last year. The 'expert' made his bike completely un-ridable
It was so bad he did'nt compete in the final race of that weekend. Since that experience he has gone on to learn for himself just how to setup his race bike and makes all the adjustments required for each circuit. Faster, safer, more satisfying and of course cheaper.
We reported the 'Ohlins' expert directly to the factory, they replied that this particular operative is an imposter and nothing to do with Ohlins. Hopefully by now the imposter is out of business.
It was so bad he did'nt compete in the final race of that weekend. Since that experience he has gone on to learn for himself just how to setup his race bike and makes all the adjustments required for each circuit. Faster, safer, more satisfying and of course cheaper. We reported the 'Ohlins' expert directly to the factory, they replied that this particular operative is an imposter and nothing to do with Ohlins. Hopefully by now the imposter is out of business.
i posted up a suspension guide on a different thread - imo its not really worth paying someone to set up your suspension - its something you should really learn to do yourself anyway and understanding how your suspension works will make u a better rider.
Also having ridden an R6 i'm not sure about the comment that they are set up for the track, i am a quick road rider and weigh about 12.5 stones and when i rode an r6 on standard settings it definately didn't feel as firm as you'd expect a race set up to be on the road - so unless u are really light or really heavy then i would be surprised to find the standard settings way out for a novice rider.
Also having ridden an R6 i'm not sure about the comment that they are set up for the track, i am a quick road rider and weigh about 12.5 stones and when i rode an r6 on standard settings it definately didn't feel as firm as you'd expect a race set up to be on the road - so unless u are really light or really heavy then i would be surprised to find the standard settings way out for a novice rider.
nordschleife fan said:
Also having ridden an R6 i'm not sure about the comment that they are set up for the track, i am a quick road rider and weigh about 12.5 stones and when i rode an r6 on standard settings it definately didn't feel as firm as you'd expect a race set up to be on the road - so unless u are really light or really heavy then i would be surprised to find the standard settings way out for a novice rider.
You calling me a lier?!
Obviously I know very little, and am going by what I've read and been told. I'm about the same weight, and trust this guys opinion..I honestly felt the bike to be softer and more "planted" than before the set-up was done....If that makes any sense?!
desmo said:Totally agreed.
If someone else can ride your bike faster than you around the track, then work on your technique, not on the bike!
Desmo.
A new standard shock with standard settings can go a long way. IMO there's not really any need to start adjusting things until you run into problems and (with my GSXR600 at least) even then the standard suspension doesn't really go to the lengths of performance that are required for quick track work, the damping and spring rates just aren't high enough.
I would suggest that you're much better off riding it and learning the handling and the difference that your weight and inputs make to the bike, rather than making subtle changes to the suspension which on a track "might" make a couple of tenths difference to your lap times.
I'm fully aware that my GSXR needs new fork oil since the old stuff seems to have lost it's viscosity, however it's still very rideable and confidence inspiring even with the lack of damping that it's suffering from.
Was reading PB this week & they did a review of the R6 (and other bikes) with different suspension settings. They reconned that it could be improved a lot (as you said Chilli, although I doubted you).
They list all thier recommended settings for loads of bikes.
Might get them changed to see.
They list all thier recommended settings for loads of bikes.
Might get them changed to see.
hobo said:
Was reading PB this week & they did a review of the R6 (and other bikes) with different suspension settings. They reconned that it could be improved a lot (as you said Chilli, although I doubted you).
They list all thier recommended settings for loads of bikes.
Might get them changed to see.
Honestly, after I had mine changed, I "felt" the difference immediately. Just felt more sure footed....can't really find the words to explain!!!
I have just had the standard suspension on my k5 1000 GSXR revalved/resprung by K-tech and it has made the world of difference. The standard bike is great but - I just thought I would see if it could be improved. For my 80kg weight the front springs are now softer with enormosly inproved damping while the back is stiffer. The over all change has resulted in the bike holding a line better, rides bumps better and the most obvious is the way it doesn't dive so hard when on the brakes.
All this comes for less than the price of an ohlins rear shock - couldn't recommend it more
All this comes for less than the price of an ohlins rear shock - couldn't recommend it more
M5Player said:
I have just had the standard suspension on my k5 1000 GSXR revalved/resprung by K-tech and it has made the world of difference. The standard bike is great but - I just thought I would see if it could be improved. For my 80kg weight the front springs are now softer with enormosly inproved damping while the back is stiffer. The over all change has resulted in the bike holding a line better, rides bumps better and the most obvious is the way it doesn't dive so hard when on the brakes.
All this comes for less than the price of an ohlins rear shock - couldn't recommend it more
That's what I meant to say!!
Well worth doing, especially if the bike feels too much for you. thats possibly a symptom of bad setup. a good setup will inspire confidence.
there are lots of guides out their, and it is easy enough to grasp.
also most bikes wont let you adjust them far enough to be too unstable (lawsuits stop that) so from full soft, to full hard changes, you will still be able to ride it, but appreciate the changes are good or bad.
what you will feel:
the front light? thats suspension, it can be adjusted to tip in and give feedback from the surface, it should balnce gently at full lean.
bad setup will need more steering input, or counter steering to stop it dropping.
bumps? bouncy? rubbish on poor roads surface, twitchy? all down to being too hard. - typical on the R6, its not rigged for UK roads. the R1 is better. it can be tuned out to a degree.
diving on the brakes? brakes feel spongy? actually suspension changes improve braking. instead of the tyre doing the work, as the spring isnt moving (because its already compressed, or too wound up to move), adjustments allow the spring to do the work, and the tyre grips better.
also it will allow improved braking in the bends, bad will try and sit up and go straight on (chilli?)
good, will tuck in and feel stable. but thats an advanced skill anyway, but if the bike does it safely, why not include it?
My bike as standard (triumph daytona) is unridable from standard, as Im very heavy. with literally just 1/4 to 1/2 a turn in the right places, it makes me feel like im a better rider - not the bike feeling better than my ability.
there are lots of guides out their, and it is easy enough to grasp.
also most bikes wont let you adjust them far enough to be too unstable (lawsuits stop that) so from full soft, to full hard changes, you will still be able to ride it, but appreciate the changes are good or bad.
what you will feel:
the front light? thats suspension, it can be adjusted to tip in and give feedback from the surface, it should balnce gently at full lean.
bad setup will need more steering input, or counter steering to stop it dropping.
bumps? bouncy? rubbish on poor roads surface, twitchy? all down to being too hard. - typical on the R6, its not rigged for UK roads. the R1 is better. it can be tuned out to a degree.
diving on the brakes? brakes feel spongy? actually suspension changes improve braking. instead of the tyre doing the work, as the spring isnt moving (because its already compressed, or too wound up to move), adjustments allow the spring to do the work, and the tyre grips better.
also it will allow improved braking in the bends, bad will try and sit up and go straight on (chilli?)
good, will tuck in and feel stable. but thats an advanced skill anyway, but if the bike does it safely, why not include it?
My bike as standard (triumph daytona) is unridable from standard, as Im very heavy. with literally just 1/4 to 1/2 a turn in the right places, it makes me feel like im a better rider - not the bike feeling better than my ability.
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