An apology to the UK
Discussion
Well, what can I say? I am really ashamed that people like abu hamza is the same religion as me. Every time people like him are on the TV or radio or I read about them it just makes my blood boil. All they have achieved in this country is give the rest of us a REALLY bad name and I fear that things may well be getting worse. Its not very often that my Dad gets worried but for the first time in a Very long time he was talking about what would happen if things did get worse.
To be honest some of the comments I have read about the subject I totally agree with, most of what DeltaF has said has made sense to me, although 1 or 2 of the comments did raise an eyebrow but you are entitled to your own opinion and I respect that.
It seems that these people do not realise they are not living in their home country, where it is possible to speak like this and get applauded. I have lost count of how many arguments I have had with other Muslims who tell me that I am not a proper Muslim because I do not (for example) pray five times a day. Any genuine, proper Muslim will know that because we have jobs to go to its not always possible, I doubt that any of these people have jobs in the first place (probably wrong though)
Again, all I can do is apologies for the actions of these so-called patriots of Islam.
Umar B
To be honest some of the comments I have read about the subject I totally agree with, most of what DeltaF has said has made sense to me, although 1 or 2 of the comments did raise an eyebrow but you are entitled to your own opinion and I respect that.
It seems that these people do not realise they are not living in their home country, where it is possible to speak like this and get applauded. I have lost count of how many arguments I have had with other Muslims who tell me that I am not a proper Muslim because I do not (for example) pray five times a day. Any genuine, proper Muslim will know that because we have jobs to go to its not always possible, I doubt that any of these people have jobs in the first place (probably wrong though)
Again, all I can do is apologies for the actions of these so-called patriots of Islam.
Umar B
Umar, I'm sorry that you have to make such an apology. I'm also sad and angry that people like Abu Hamza use religion to preach violence and hatred. I'm not a religious person but I respect the views of those who are. But to twist religion to support war and hatred is perverse beyond belief.
I'm sure that if that warmonger Bush finally decides to let rip on Sadam Hussain one of his cohorts will trot out the same old tripe about God being on our side. Just a feeble excuse to justify war making.
Sorry about the rant.
I'm sure that if that warmonger Bush finally decides to let rip on Sadam Hussain one of his cohorts will trot out the same old tripe about God being on our side. Just a feeble excuse to justify war making.
Sorry about the rant.
Umar,
I hope I speak for the vast majority of "native" UK people in that whilst the popular press likes to equate a few nutters with "all people from that religion/part of the world must be the same" - the actual people don't believe it.
Believe me, we have quite a few native nutters of our own running around!
If you experience narrow mindedness from my fellow Britons then I apologise - but I hope that most of us are intelligent enough to realise that a man does not make a race, nor the race maketh the man.
I personally quite respect some of the non-Christian religions, particularly the teachings of respect for the family group and the fundamentals of sacred life. Sure - there are factions that take things to the extreme, but it wasn't that long ago that we had the Spanish Inquisition running around Europe dishing out "holy law" - so we can hardly sit here and look smug.
J
I hope I speak for the vast majority of "native" UK people in that whilst the popular press likes to equate a few nutters with "all people from that religion/part of the world must be the same" - the actual people don't believe it.
Believe me, we have quite a few native nutters of our own running around!
If you experience narrow mindedness from my fellow Britons then I apologise - but I hope that most of us are intelligent enough to realise that a man does not make a race, nor the race maketh the man.
I personally quite respect some of the non-Christian religions, particularly the teachings of respect for the family group and the fundamentals of sacred life. Sure - there are factions that take things to the extreme, but it wasn't that long ago that we had the Spanish Inquisition running around Europe dishing out "holy law" - so we can hardly sit here and look smug.
J
Umar,
You can't go round apologising for idiots that happen to share a radical version of Islam!
If people are stupid enough to believe that there is one voice for Islam, that's their lookout. They are probably stupid enough to believe that there is one voice that speaks for all of Christianity.
The sad fact is that news like this just feeds peoples prejudices. Intolerence is on the rise and it is easier to pick on peple that look diferent.
You can't go round apologising for idiots that happen to share a radical version of Islam!
If people are stupid enough to believe that there is one voice for Islam, that's their lookout. They are probably stupid enough to believe that there is one voice that speaks for all of Christianity.
The sad fact is that news like this just feeds peoples prejudices. Intolerence is on the rise and it is easier to pick on peple that look diferent.
Umar. A brave thing. Respect.
But anyone with an ounce of understanding does NOT blame Islaam for the current tensions. Just as one cannot blame Christianity for the evils of the Crusades.
Those who preach violence and commit violence are simply evil. It doesn't matter what faith or country they purport to do the evil in the name of...its still wrong. Whereas sometimes violence is only way to settle a matter - this is very seldom and must be undertaken with a heavy heart whilst hoping for forgiveness.
Let us hope that people of faith in this country can show that religious diversity is NOT cause for disharmony.
Your moral standpoint, affection for your country (UK) and willingness to speak up do you credit.
But anyone with an ounce of understanding does NOT blame Islaam for the current tensions. Just as one cannot blame Christianity for the evils of the Crusades.
Those who preach violence and commit violence are simply evil. It doesn't matter what faith or country they purport to do the evil in the name of...its still wrong. Whereas sometimes violence is only way to settle a matter - this is very seldom and must be undertaken with a heavy heart whilst hoping for forgiveness.
Let us hope that people of faith in this country can show that religious diversity is NOT cause for disharmony.
Your moral standpoint, affection for your country (UK) and willingness to speak up do you credit.
Umar,
Despite the polarising effect of the events of the past couple of years on the general populace, there is no need for a moderate Muslim to feel the need to apologise.
This would be akin to a Roman Caholic feeling the need to apologise for the sickening actions of some priests that have come to light over the past few years.
There are zealots, maniacs and sick people associated with all religions, from the Waco cult (nominally christian) all the way to the nutcases in Japan who released nerve gas into the subway system a few years back.
We are only guilty by association if we associate with and support these people.
Despite the polarising effect of the events of the past couple of years on the general populace, there is no need for a moderate Muslim to feel the need to apologise.
This would be akin to a Roman Caholic feeling the need to apologise for the sickening actions of some priests that have come to light over the past few years.
There are zealots, maniacs and sick people associated with all religions, from the Waco cult (nominally christian) all the way to the nutcases in Japan who released nerve gas into the subway system a few years back.
We are only guilty by association if we associate with and support these people.
Bloody well said Umar - it did and does need saying - probably much more in fact, by the leaders of the Islamic community.
Let's not p1ss around here, gents - Islam is being villified and it needs to defend itself.
I have absolutely no problem with anyone of any faith pronouncing their sworn allegiance to Albion - IMHO, it's precisely the very lack of notions of nationhood that is surreptitiously shagging this place to death.
Christians of all denominations, Muslims, Hindus, non-believers or whatever - if you don't believe in (an admittedly difficult to define but largely assumed concept of a decent, democratic) nationhood above all things including your religion then I think there IS a problem.
I couldn't care less about individuals' faiths; I do, however, care passionately about this country and what IT should expect of IT's subjects - not always the other sodding way round.
It's literally a case of Hail To England...
Let's not p1ss around here, gents - Islam is being villified and it needs to defend itself.
I have absolutely no problem with anyone of any faith pronouncing their sworn allegiance to Albion - IMHO, it's precisely the very lack of notions of nationhood that is surreptitiously shagging this place to death.
Christians of all denominations, Muslims, Hindus, non-believers or whatever - if you don't believe in (an admittedly difficult to define but largely assumed concept of a decent, democratic) nationhood above all things including your religion then I think there IS a problem.
I couldn't care less about individuals' faiths; I do, however, care passionately about this country and what IT should expect of IT's subjects - not always the other sodding way round.
It's literally a case of Hail To England...
Don said: Umar. A brave thing. Respect.
But anyone with an ounce of understanding does NOT blame Islaam for the current tensions. Just as one cannot blame Christianity for the evils of the Crusades.
Those who preach violence and commit violence are simply evil. It doesn't matter what faith or country they purport to do the evil in the name of...its still wrong. Whereas sometimes violence is only way to settle a matter - this is very seldom and must be undertaken with a heavy heart whilst hoping for forgiveness.
Let us hope that people of faith in this country can show that religious diversity is NOT cause for disharmony.
Your moral standpoint, affection for your country (UK) and willingness to speak up do you credit.
well said.
Umar, don't get confused by a few people who might think, all muslims are criminals or have bad intentions or whatsoever.
And I see CarZee in front of his moderator's gui, curious what zeGerman will reply:
My interpretation of history lessons made me a man who mistrusts and questions every system.
Owning a 2CV doesn't make me a treehugger though, Mr. Kahrzieh
:slap: :knock: 
And I see CarZee in front of his moderator's gui, curious what zeGerman will reply:
CarZee said: respect, Umar.. a sad state of affairs indeed.
I am vaiting fur Bodo to apologize for ze condukt of his country during zee var...
My interpretation of history lessons made me a man who mistrusts and questions every system.
Owning a 2CV doesn't make me a treehugger though, Mr. Kahrzieh
:slap: :knock: Umar, I think you have done a very noble thing, I'm with derestrictor on this, your religion is being hi-jacked by people like Abu Hamza and we all need to work together to remedy this (somehow)There's a lot of hatred being stirred up by our gutter press, which probably accounts for some comments on this forum causing your concern. Our freedom of speech and willingness to assist those in need is being taken advantage of as well so there is a lot of bad feeling at the moment
"Christians of all denominations, Muslims, Hindus, non-believers or whatever - if you don't believe in (an admittedly difficult to define but largely assumed concept of a decent, democratic) nationhood above all things including your religion then I think there IS a problem."
Derestrictor - unless I have misunderstood, you are suggesting that patriotism overrides religious faith. I therefore naturally assume you are not a theist, or perhaps agnostic, which of course I am not arguing against since you are entitled to your own beliefs. However I am questioning whether you have understood what makes a follower of a faith tick.
If my nation required me to do something fundamentally against my beliefs or my moral code (whether that is religiously defined or not), should I allow allegiance to a flag to override allegiance to morality?
It would be unreasonable to expect people to abandon what they hold spiritually dear in favour of what is only temporal.
Derestrictor - unless I have misunderstood, you are suggesting that patriotism overrides religious faith. I therefore naturally assume you are not a theist, or perhaps agnostic, which of course I am not arguing against since you are entitled to your own beliefs. However I am questioning whether you have understood what makes a follower of a faith tick.
If my nation required me to do something fundamentally against my beliefs or my moral code (whether that is religiously defined or not), should I allow allegiance to a flag to override allegiance to morality?
It would be unreasonable to expect people to abandon what they hold spiritually dear in favour of what is only temporal.
It's a sad thing that this man claims to speak for all of Islam and can only perpetuate hatred, as people fail to see eachother as human beings and react to the stereotype. History offers more examples of of misery through this than we can count, but I fear that we haven't learned much and Abu Hamza will succeed in generating increasing fear and hatred amongst previously peaceful neighbours. It all starts somewhere.
edited to add that it makes me sick to the stomach to think that a man who wants to live harmoniously within a diverse community and honour his faith feels the need to apologise for anything.
>> Edited by rude girl on Tuesday 21st January 13:21
edited to add that it makes me sick to the stomach to think that a man who wants to live harmoniously within a diverse community and honour his faith feels the need to apologise for anything.
>> Edited by rude girl on Tuesday 21st January 13:21
Respect Umar, As a "Christian" I sometimes feel the same way about the things that have and are happening in Northern Ireland. I cannot find any justification for the things that are being done in the name of "Christianity". Sometimes the people who do this have a disagreement with other people and try and justify what they do with religion. You have the right to feel aggrieved by the actions of a few extremists but rest assured, most of the people in this country know that it is only a few giving the rest a bad name.
Rob
Rob
Difficult one this. If the religion has grown up from within a country, then I would imagine that the two allegiances could act side by side.
Harris_I said: If my nation required me to do something fundamentally against my beliefs or my moral code (whether that is religiously defined or not), should I allow allegiance to a flag to override allegiance to morality?
If you have a strong religious faith, and wish to move to another part of the world, I would suggest that you check that your religious faith is compaitble with that part of the world prior to moving.
As Umar has said (contributed to your continually rising respect rating mate), he has no problem in following Islam in this country, but he has had to make some adjustments as the culture is different.
The problems arise when people come into this (for arguements sake) country and say that they can't live here due to the incumbant culture - and therefore the answer is to change that culture.
I'm sure that there has to be give and take on both sides (Seiks not wearing crash helmets as a poor example), but I don't think that the clerics at Finsbury park have the right to impose their interpretation of strick Islamic law on the UK.
As has been said Umar, you have done nothing wrong, so shouldn't have to appologise. I can see why you feel that you may have to though, as you feel that these people are falsely representing you. Therefore, if you could rely on the intelligence of the Great British public, there would be no problems. Turns out that not all of our public are that great though
, and may start believing this association. I hope that we cut this one off at the pass before it does more harm to inter-religious relations.
Rich
The West is both multi-racial and multi-cultural. No single country in the West could get all it's people to fully unite under one common flag if provoked, even the USA. The same is not true of Islamic countries and people like Abu Hamza recognise this. He is provoking racial hatred in this country. He wants us to hate him and by describing himself constantly as a Moslem, he, in turn, wants us to direct that hatred at Moslems in general. If he called himself a gay, we would hate gays. He wants us to walk up to Moslems around the World and tell them we hate them, because he knows that the Islamic nations will unite in a common goal against the West, the "aggressor".
The only saving grace in all this is that there are Moslems like Umar. It should give hope to us all that someday the Islamic Nations might see fit to denounce people like Abu Hamza and remove his right to use a great religion to excuse terrorism. Without it he has no power and no army.
Umar you are a "proper Moslem", you are a British Moslem. I hope your father's proud, thankyou.
Andy
The only saving grace in all this is that there are Moslems like Umar. It should give hope to us all that someday the Islamic Nations might see fit to denounce people like Abu Hamza and remove his right to use a great religion to excuse terrorism. Without it he has no power and no army.
Umar you are a "proper Moslem", you are a British Moslem. I hope your father's proud, thankyou.
Andy
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