MSc Software Engineering

[toobin]

Bit of advice really.

I'm looking to have a mid career change and really fancy working more fully within IT. I have just been accepted on a 2 year part time MSc course at the University of Westminster and was really looking for anyone that may have done this course or have studied at Westminster for some feedback.

I have no formal IT experience and have not written a line of code in my life. Apparently this course is designed for graduates without a software related degree.

Any help, advice or just soem encouragement would be great

[mattley]

How old are you?

what have you done up until now?

What sort of Fully in IT do you want?

If you can match past skill sets/specific industry knowledge to business process/system integration skills you could be laughing, but if you're looking at going from plumbing to programming, you'll probably struggle in the job market. If you find it suits you and you can actually do it, and can afford to start on a pretty low wage, then go for it and good luck.

[toobin]

mattley said:

How old are you? what have you done up until now? What sort of Fully in IT do you want? If you can match past skill sets/specific industry knowledge to business process/system integration skills you could be laughing, but if you're looking at going from plumbing to programming, you'll probably struggle in the job market. If you find it suits you and you can actually do it, and can afford to start on a pretty low wage, then go for it and good luck.

Not long turned 30

Currently I'm a deputy head teacher but have also worked in recruitment / sales

I really want to get into the nuts and bolts of IT and I really want a job that involves a high degree of learning and challenge. Not bothered about the money side of things and have catered for starting from a graduate wage again. The longer aim would be technical project management or consultancy I hope.

[GreenV8S]

There's far more to IT than developing software, is there any particular area that attracts you? If you see yourself working as a developer, I suggest you need to have a play with something simple and see if that's something you enjoy doing.

[annodomini2]

With an IT job you'd be better looking at Network side of things, possibly if someone does Network Engineering course.

Software Engineering will be more program development, unless that is what you mean by IT?

[mattley]

Oh deputy head is good enough for basic management credentials, and will give you huge start in the management field, and education systems are moving at a pace at the moment, so project management/implementation should be well available within your field.

When you say nuts and bolts, there are very different fields. Programming is very different to infrastructure, which is very different to application deployment, which is very different to support, which is very ...... you get the idea.


Hopefully the course will enable you to find what you're good at and have an aptitude for, and allow to to focus on that area to the best end.

All the best.

[toobin]

annodomini2 said:

With an IT job you'd be better looking at Network side of things, possibly if someone does Network Engineering course. Software Engineering will be more program development, unless that is what you mean by IT?

Thanks annodomini2, but I'm really looking more at the programming side of things. I have read the essence of programming using C++ and really see this as more my field.

[toobin]

mattley said:

Oh deputy head is good enough for basic management credentials, and will give you huge start in the management field, and education systems are moving at a pace at the moment, so project management/implementation should be well available within your field. When you say nuts and bolts, there are very different fields. Programming is very different to infrastructure, which is very different to application deployment, which is very different to support, which is very ...... you get the idea. Hopefully the course will enable you to find what you're good at and have an aptitude for, and allow to to focus on that area to the best end. All the best.

Thanks mattley.

I really want to focus on the programming side of things and having picked at it through a few text books I think it would be something of interest to me. My only concern is that at 30 starting something totally new to me and at this level may blow away whats left of my brain cells

[Zad]

Good luck, you'll need it.

It's not so much starting at 30 that is the problem. The problem is that there are already a huge number of C/C++/C# programmers on the market, many of which have a huge amount of experience on specific systems with specific compilers, which is what the recruiters are looking for.

You will of course be up against 21-22 year old graduates _with_huge_debts_, which employers love because they have to work for a pittance and will quite frankly put up with the conditions that someone over 30 will not. The agencies and human resources departments will also see your background as a Deputy Head, and draw the conclusion that you will be asking too much money, and will be eager to climb the ladder as quickly as possible - that is to say you will be looking to leave your employer within a year of starting.

Take a good look at jobsite and jobserve and look at the sort of pay new grad programmers are getting. Don't look at the upper number in the range, look at the lower one, because that's what they will realistically expect to pay (the upper number is recruiter inflation).

Ironically a Software Engineering Degree probably won't that much hands-on programming but will be a lot of work on methodologies which is quite abstract and theoretical (I'm going by my undergrad years - most programming was done under different subjects).

Be aware also that you may fall into the trap of being perceived as "something other". My BSc is in I.T. but my M.Sc is in Electronics. So I.T. recruiters see me as being an electronics person and electronics recruiters see me as being an I.T. bod. Result: Someone else gets the job.

[big_treacle]

toobin said:

Stuff - wants to do s/w development course

Sadly I can't offer any advice on your specific course or university choice.
But I'd say: Yeah, go for it man. Its the only way to find out if its what you want to get into or not. I remember doing my comp science degree and when I first started had no clue on coding, let alone how to engineer software. It was tricky to get my head around some of the concepts at first, but luckily it suited the way my brain works & I soon got into it. Now I find development to be a great way to make a living.
On the flip side, a mate of mine decided to have a crack at it and started an open uni degree course in computing and OO design and development but just couldn't get his head around it. After 18 months he put it on hold and went to drink tequila in mexico and before going on the dole while figuring out a new plan. But he tried and now he knows that s/w is not the way for him.
In s/w development I think it helps if you can find the right field to do interesting projects & while doing your course it's probably worth checking jobserve to see what skills people want for the sort of projects you might want to work on. For example, I've managed to fit myself into the broad area of embedded development rather than say, desktop applications. Obviously software is found embedded within all sorts of different devices: Car ECU's, mobile phones, missiles, sat nav, stereos, industrial control systems etc etc...endless list. All different, but to a certain extent in software terms if you have experience working on say a missile project, you can probably do a sat nav project. As a result, in the past 8 years I've pretty much been purely involved in embedded software development, but ended up working in 5 or 6 totally different areas on all sorts of projects for a bunch of different companies. Makes for variation without totally changing your career. Though I think being freelance also helps here.
Anyway, best of luck & don't steal my job

[Plotloss]

I, for my sins, studied Software Engineering and then went through the ranks as helpdesk bod, network monkey, developer, project manager, technical project manager and finally Architect.

The course is a good foundation using concepts that you will probably never use unless you take a career in a truly massive organisation such as the NHS or the Military.

Software engineering is an interesting concept, basically makes testing redundant or thats the idea. The reality is no one can be bothered testing specifications with a specification language as you never have the time as there is always an element of fire fighting. Sure it exists in the ivory tower of education but in the real world its easier to throw 50 testers at the end of a unit of code rather than get 5 developers to be very clever at the start of it.

If it genuinely is what you want to do then you will enjoy it a lot, dont expect much fun though, as an IT person you are seen by any business as a massive cost and by any software house as a commodity ultimately.

Mind you, it does afford a nice lifestyle if you can put up with the crap...

[annodomini2]

big_treacle said:

toobin said: Stuff - wants to do s/w development course Sadly I can't offer any advice on your specific course or university choice. But I'd say: Yeah, go for it man. Its the only way to find out if its what you want to get into or not. I remember doing my comp science degree and when I first started had no clue on coding, let alone how to engineer software. It was tricky to get my head around some of the concepts at first, but luckily it suited the way my brain works & I soon got into it. Now I find development to be a great way to make a living. On the flip side, a mate of mine decided to have a crack at it and started an open uni degree course in computing and OO design and development but just couldn't get his head around it. After 18 months he put it on hold and went to drink tequila in mexico and before going on the dole while figuring out a new plan. But he tried and now he knows that s/w is not the way for him. In s/w development I think it helps if you can find the right field to do interesting projects & while doing your course it's probably worth checking jobserve to see what skills people want for the sort of projects you might want to work on. For example, I've managed to fit myself into the broad area of embedded development rather than say, desktop applications. Obviously software is found embedded within all sorts of different devices: Car ECU's, mobile phones, missiles, sat nav, stereos, industrial control systems etc etc...endless list. All different, but to a certain extent in software terms if you have experience working on say a missile project, you can probably do a sat nav project. As a result, in the past 8 years I've pretty much been purely involved in embedded software development, but ended up working in 5 or 6 totally different areas on all sorts of projects for a bunch of different companies. Makes for variation without totally changing your career. Though I think being freelance also helps here. Anyway, best of luck & don't steal my job

Embedded is good fun, but it helps to do electronics aswell as software due to the general low level nature of the architecture.

[JonRB]

toobin said:

I have just been accepted on a 2 year part time MSc course at the University of Westminster and was really looking for anyone that may have done this course or have studied at Westminster for some feedback.

I did the full-time 1 year MSc Software Engineering course at Wesminster University in 1993.

Obviously that is a very long time ago so my experiences will probably not be relevant, but I would say that you would really struggle without any programming experience. The course was very intense. I went in as an experienced computer guy with a good knowledge of BASIC and Fortran plus a fair knowledge of C thinking that the course would simply rubber-stamp my knowledge. That was a rude shock to the system, I can tell you, as it was really hard work and I struggled a bit until I swallowed my pride and buckled down to it. However, I came out with good C++ and SQL knowledge which I built a career on and for me it was well worth doing.

Edit: Holy crap! It's just sunk into my thick head that 1993 was 13 years ago.

>> Edited by JonRB on Wednesday 17th May 16:30

[toobin]

JonRB said:

toobin said: I have just been accepted on a 2 year part time MSc course at the University of Westminster and was really looking for anyone that may have done this course or have studied at Westminster for some feedback. I did the full-time 1 year MSc Software Engineering course at Wesminster University in 1993. Obviously that is a very long time ago so my experiences will probably not be relevant, but I would say that you would really struggle without any programming experience. The course was very intense. I went in as an experienced computer guy with a good knowledge of BASIC and Fortran plus a fair knowledge of C thinking that the course would simply rubber-stamp my knowledge. That was a rude shock to the system, I can tell you, as it was really hard work and I struggled a bit until I swallowed my pride and buckled down to it. However, I came out with good C++ and SQL knowledge which I built a career on and for me it was well worth doing. Edit: Holy crap! It's just sunk into my thick head that 1993 was 13 years ago. >> Edited by JonRB on Wednesday 17th May 16:30

Thanks JonRB, it's good to have a bit of insight from someone who has sat the same or similar course. I appreciate that it's not going to be easy and have tried reading as much around the course to prepare me as possible. I suppose I'm in somewhat of a lucky situation studying it over 2 years with lots of holidays and a job that finishes at 4 . You have also offered a little reassurance too in that it has lead onto a strong career for you.

Zad said:

Good luck, you'll need it. It's not so much starting at 30 that is the problem. The problem is that there are already a huge number of C/C++/C# programmers on the market, many of which have a huge amount of experience on specific systems with specific compilers, which is what the recruiters are looking for......................

I hear what you are saying ZAD and appreciate the honesty. I have considered starting at a base level again and thought that perhaps a bit of freelance work in conjunction with my current career may be a gentle way into it and again I appreciate the competition. My whole aim I guess is to start again at a career path I should have taken at 18 rather than 30 and being challenged and satisfied with my job. I'm rather hoping that this course will open more doors than it shuts.

big_treacle said:

Sadly I can't offer any advice on your specific course or university choice. But I'd say: Yeah, go for it man. Its the only way to find out if its what you want to get into or not............. Anyway, best of luck & don't steal my job

and thanks big_treacle for the positive push

>> Edited by toobin on Wednesday 17th May 18:32

>> Edited by toobin on Wednesday 17th May 18:33

[polus]

Software Engineering and IT are two different things (well in the context of careers). I work in R&D and have done software engineering for robotic control at the embedded level all the way up to Win32 programming in WTL/ATL and MFC for GUI and communications stacks. I did a degree in Electronic and Software Engineering and for the most part am glad! I love my job, it’s really satisfying and the money isn’t bad.

Like someone else said; do projects that are related to an interest (if you get to pick). I would also get two computers and run Windows on one and UNIX (or Linux) on the other and play about with both.

Breaking into Software Engineering isn’t easy with zero experience but there’s plenty of ways to-do it (and being in the south helps - lots). Obviously this depends on what area you move into but skills that are a must for a software engineer IMO are:

- Understanding the underlying architecture.
- Knowing C and C++ (they can be applied at so many levels and for so many platforms from 8 bit MCU's to CGI)
- NEVER underestimate the importance of the design process. Not enough emphasis is placed on this during studies; OOD and UML are your friends (if used properly).

If you have trouble with the lack of experience factor take part in some open source projects!

2 peneth added, good luck!