Is the VX220 T better than the 111R?
Discussion
After 10 years of lusting after the Elise and a number of test drives - culminating in 5 hours in the 111R on Sunday I am beginning to think I am missing something..
I really don't want to wind anyone up on this board, but isn't the 2ZZ engine a bit..um..crap..? I want to drive the car every day and it seems that if I keep the revs under 4,000 rpm (if not higher) it seems as gutless as my MR2. Don't get me wrong; I love the kick at 6,000 but, on a day to day basis, at normal revs isn't it a bit..um..slow.
Please tell me my dream car isn't as bad as I think it is. Is the 111S - or even VX220T - a better bet for every day driving?
Hobgoblin
I really don't want to wind anyone up on this board, but isn't the 2ZZ engine a bit..um..crap..? I want to drive the car every day and it seems that if I keep the revs under 4,000 rpm (if not higher) it seems as gutless as my MR2. Don't get me wrong; I love the kick at 6,000 but, on a day to day basis, at normal revs isn't it a bit..um..slow.
Please tell me my dream car isn't as bad as I think it is. Is the 111S - or even VX220T - a better bet for every day driving?
Hobgoblin
After 5 yrs in a Caterham SLR I'm been acclimatising to an S2 Exige for the last 6 weeks. It was a little dissapointing at first but now I'm quite happy. I wouldn't swap for a VXT as I prefer the Lotus philosophy. Yes on the low cam its no ball of fire but its more than happy to keep up with most cars and keeps the adrenaline down so you dont get worn out driving it. You then have the ability to switch modes if you want to and go mental should the mood take you but for me I'm really happy to enjoy the chassis and its ability to carry speed over bumps and ruts. A 111S has a similar torque curve up to the cam switch and is a little lighter so it may be a little swifter low down the rev range but the upper rev range of the Toyota wins hands down.
The VXT was a big temptation and I should have tried one but if you plan to do any wet/adverse weather driving the low down grunt of the turbo engine will have you sticking out a hedge in no time. IIRC didn't all the press cars get stuffed at the lauch event? (My Exige runs on road tyres, the Yokos A048s are in the loft!!)
You had the right idea in the first place, stick to the plan
The VXT was a big temptation and I should have tried one but if you plan to do any wet/adverse weather driving the low down grunt of the turbo engine will have you sticking out a hedge in no time. IIRC didn't all the press cars get stuffed at the lauch event? (My Exige runs on road tyres, the Yokos A048s are in the loft!!)
You had the right idea in the first place, stick to the plan
I have to say that the split personality of the 111R suits me fine. It's plenty quick enough and real playtime is only an extended gear change away!
I can completely understand that some people are frustrated by the power delivery stages, but I mainly prefer to keep my eyes in their sockets and save some popping-out for the odd occasion
It's all AND nothing - not a problem for my taste at all. It can be perversely equated to hard-top, soft-top or open-top... I have them all and just love that about the Elise
So many great things in such a small package! Get stuck in... you know it makes sense
I can completely understand that some people are frustrated by the power delivery stages, but I mainly prefer to keep my eyes in their sockets and save some popping-out for the odd occasion
It's all AND nothing - not a problem for my taste at all. It can be perversely equated to hard-top, soft-top or open-top... I have them all and just love that about the Elise
So many great things in such a small package! Get stuck in... you know it makes sense
Probably totally irrelevent to this topic but I was lucky enough to test drive the vx220 turbo for a few days, all that was required was I provided my own insurance which was nice. I really wanted to love it because I love the looks especially in saphire black but after a few days with it I just got fed up with the way the car tracks along the road. Every bump no matter how tiny would send the steering from one way to the other, I couldnt live with that everyday. In contrast the 111r I drove the steering was perfection with no such issues and the performance didnt seem that bad however it did have quite a few miles on it.
Well I'm lucky enough to have an Exige 240 Cup and a VX220 Turbo. They drive completely differently.
Whilst i can't comment on comparison with an Elise, I can say that the power delivery in the VX does not put you in to hedges, the driver does that. Oh and by way of reinforcing this point, the VX now delivers over 310BHP and as long as right foot is applied with due consideration, it's as easy to use as it has always been.
Whilst i can't comment on comparison with an Elise, I can say that the power delivery in the VX does not put you in to hedges, the driver does that. Oh and by way of reinforcing this point, the VX now delivers over 310BHP and as long as right foot is applied with due consideration, it's as easy to use as it has always been.
exx said:
Well I'm lucky enough to have an Exige 240 Cup and a VX220 Turbo. They drive completely differently.
Whilst i can't comment on comparison with an Elise, I can say that the power delivery in the VX does not put you in to hedges, the driver does that. Oh and by way of reinforcing this point, the VX now delivers over 310BHP and as long as right foot is applied with due consideration, it's as easy to use as it has always been.
Lucky man...what a collection
Are the VXT's (relatively) cheap to upgrade for power then?
What kind of power can you go to before some kind of chassis upgrade?
cheers
james.
sp60 said:
Well I'm lucky enough to have an Exige 240 Cup and a VX220 Turbo. They drive completely differently.
Whilst i can't comment on comparison with an Elise, I can say that the power delivery in the VX does not put you in to hedges, the driver does that. Oh and by way of reinforcing this point, the VX now delivers over 310BHP and as long as right foot is applied with due consideration, it's as easy to use as it has always been.
Lucky man...what a collection
Are the VXT's (relatively) cheap to upgrade for power then?
What kind of power can you go to before some kind of chassis upgrade?
cheers
james.
Well, ahem, it's my other halfs car and she's gone nuts with the power!
Now sports a VXR Turbocharger Unit,larger injectors, Regal/AMD ECU program, hand made intercooler from Regal, switchable boost (wet (lol) and dry settings)and Spax suspension. So it seems the chassis is rock solid at what now is 320BHP ish. Also uprated brakes to EBC Fast Road/Track Drilled and vented discs and pads -that WAS a necessity.
Cost wise - well 250BHP with AMD cost around £2K, that included a new ECU and a new intercooler. the other work since has cost about £3k.
0-60 at the previous power setting was a tyre smoking sub 4.0
The VX220 made lotus bring up thier quality to GM levels so (according to lotus) all lotus cars have benifited fron making the VX. There are loads of stories of people chopping in thier VX for a 111R. That is not really important now.
When comparing the VX to the 111R you really should bear in mind the basis of comparison. They are the same chassis and they are both about the best cars available from now on we are comparing "lilly white" to "jasmine white", it comes down to personal preference.
Here is my preference.
The vx engine is heavy and critics have said that this contributes to more "swing" across the rear. The weight makes the the 111R the better handling car (confirmed by Evo)
Lotus car have never been about huge power, it is about handling. regardless of power (190bhp is a hell of a lot of power in a car that weighs 850kg)
In true form of a Vauhall owner the effort is not to produce a better handling car that is more agile and completes a track in a better time, as a broad generalisation vauxhall owners get "one up man ship" on a dyno.
As for driving - "190bhp gutless"??? You have to work the yota lump to get the best of it. The same as a hooonda vtec lump. No one ever says a type R is gutless you simply have to adapt your driving style to get the best from it. I love the fact that I am in a drivers car that I have to work hard to drive. It is involving and if you want a car that doesnt involve you I can recomend subaru or mushybushy.
The biggest point of preference is that when I look across my car - it is far prettier and the botom line is my car has LOTUS written on it. That is worth the money. Snob maybe, but I love the brand.
When comparing the VX to the 111R you really should bear in mind the basis of comparison. They are the same chassis and they are both about the best cars available from now on we are comparing "lilly white" to "jasmine white", it comes down to personal preference.
Here is my preference.
The vx engine is heavy and critics have said that this contributes to more "swing" across the rear. The weight makes the the 111R the better handling car (confirmed by Evo)
Lotus car have never been about huge power, it is about handling. regardless of power (190bhp is a hell of a lot of power in a car that weighs 850kg)
In true form of a Vauhall owner the effort is not to produce a better handling car that is more agile and completes a track in a better time, as a broad generalisation vauxhall owners get "one up man ship" on a dyno.
As for driving - "190bhp gutless"??? You have to work the yota lump to get the best of it. The same as a hooonda vtec lump. No one ever says a type R is gutless you simply have to adapt your driving style to get the best from it. I love the fact that I am in a drivers car that I have to work hard to drive. It is involving and if you want a car that doesnt involve you I can recomend subaru or mushybushy.
The biggest point of preference is that when I look across my car - it is far prettier and the botom line is my car has LOTUS written on it. That is worth the money. Snob maybe, but I love the brand.
Chrome Orange said:
Elise with the VXT engine, now THAT would be ideal
I reckon the NA VX engine is the best of the bunch. Perhaps not the power of the VXT, at only 145ish horses, but none of this turbo or vtec-type nonsense, instead it has an alloy block, some handy low-down torque thanks to the 2.2 and rock-solid reliability.
Stick the NA VX engine in an Elise and the deal is sealed.
Ben
>> Edited by Ratspants on Wednesday 24th May 14:06
Oh god, I'm going to have to say it again... for me, the best engine combination in the S2 Elise, but a country mile, is the Honda Type R, from the aftermarket kits. I've driven all the Toyota engined variants of the S2 bar the 240R, and whilst the Exige S and Cup 240's are undoubtedly fast cars, my preference is for the normally aspirated Honda. Throttle response is more immediate, the power delivery more linear and with the VVTi the pickup is markedly better.
I really suggest you try one of the Link-Up kits supplied and fitted by Brooke Kensington or Maidstone Sports Cars, or try Sinclaires Honda version and see what you think of that before committing. There is a 3rd way, and it's worth investigating if you don't like the delivery of the 111R lump.
Back on topic, I'm not a fan of Turbo'd engines but I'm sure if you had a look at some of the truly trick VXT cars out there which have been specc'd by real enthusiasts (see AMD, Thorney Motorsport, Plans Motorsport for details) they'd have the lag issues ironed out, the 'soft' ride issues resolved etc.
I did not get on with the NA 'yota lump at all, finding the all or nothing loony cam just too much to live with. Others though absolutely love it, and while I'll argue the toss all day with the 111R boys as to what's "better" it's so very subjective and down to personal preference, that we'll be debating the merits and demerits forever. I think it's a bit of a Marmite/Guinness/Binary affair.
Pro's and Con's for me between the VXT and the 111R boil down to this:
+ VXT is cheaper to buy, but you'll have to spend a fair bit on it to get it 'right' for an aggressive drive. Once you've spent that cash though (as exx notes) you'll have a very, very quick and capable car which will annihilate a stock 111R every day of the week.
- It's got the wrong badge and the styling does not appeal to some. Personally I think the VX's with OZ wheels look badass.
+ 111R has the more classic design, has the badge and the heritage. The build quality is undoubtedly better than earlier variants, and the engine is very reliable.
- Tuning options are currently few, and the cost of doing any tweaking expensive. Power delivery is VERY peaky, and the 2nd cam powerband easy to fall out of, hence providing a somewhat frustrating drive at times.
I really suggest you try one of the Link-Up kits supplied and fitted by Brooke Kensington or Maidstone Sports Cars, or try Sinclaires Honda version and see what you think of that before committing. There is a 3rd way, and it's worth investigating if you don't like the delivery of the 111R lump.
Back on topic, I'm not a fan of Turbo'd engines but I'm sure if you had a look at some of the truly trick VXT cars out there which have been specc'd by real enthusiasts (see AMD, Thorney Motorsport, Plans Motorsport for details) they'd have the lag issues ironed out, the 'soft' ride issues resolved etc.
I did not get on with the NA 'yota lump at all, finding the all or nothing loony cam just too much to live with. Others though absolutely love it, and while I'll argue the toss all day with the 111R boys as to what's "better" it's so very subjective and down to personal preference, that we'll be debating the merits and demerits forever. I think it's a bit of a Marmite/Guinness/Binary affair.
Pro's and Con's for me between the VXT and the 111R boil down to this:
+ VXT is cheaper to buy, but you'll have to spend a fair bit on it to get it 'right' for an aggressive drive. Once you've spent that cash though (as exx notes) you'll have a very, very quick and capable car which will annihilate a stock 111R every day of the week.
- It's got the wrong badge and the styling does not appeal to some. Personally I think the VX's with OZ wheels look badass.
+ 111R has the more classic design, has the badge and the heritage. The build quality is undoubtedly better than earlier variants, and the engine is very reliable.
- Tuning options are currently few, and the cost of doing any tweaking expensive. Power delivery is VERY peaky, and the 2nd cam powerband easy to fall out of, hence providing a somewhat frustrating drive at times.
gooby said:Well, yes - this may be true if you're on a track and heading for a lap record.
The 111R is faster in the bends - where you want it. It is not better looking (By far) and since when did "cheap" mean "better"?
However, the limiting factor for both cars on the road will be visibility. You might then want the extra poke of the VXT to blast away down the straights. As for "cheap", I'm sure you meant "cheaper"
. If you consider a 20k+ car to be a "cheap" one, you've got enough money to buy something better than either of these cars. For what it's worth, I'd have the 111R - it's got a nicer cabin than the VXT. However, if it were one of the rover engined cars, I'd opt for the VXT.
Dan
Some folks who could afford the 111R actually bought the 111S for the more linear torque & power .... I'm one of them.
So my answer to the question "is the VX220 T better than the 111R?" would be; "for some yes and others no".
Drive 'em all and you decide - internet opinions are no way to be buying a sports car.
So my answer to the question "is the VX220 T better than the 111R?" would be; "for some yes and others no".
Drive 'em all and you decide - internet opinions are no way to be buying a sports car.
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