Graduate Salary
Discussion
Hi All,
I know this is like licking my finger and sticking it in the wind but roughly what sort of salary should I as a graduate be looking for?
Without sounding like an advert on Jobserve I am looking for an IT Project Management type role, I have completed a degree in Business Information Technology and I am PRINCE2 certified.
I also have over 2 years experience of working in an IT environment.
All the jobs on Monster etc are all saying about £40k + but before I get my hopes up I know I won't get that sort of salary straight out of university but I don't want to agree to £20k when i know I can easily get £25k with a bit of haggling (if that makes sense!)
So guys what you expect to pay a graduate who has experience and PRINCE2 both in terms of an hourly rate and a salary.
Many Thanks,
Phill
I know this is like licking my finger and sticking it in the wind but roughly what sort of salary should I as a graduate be looking for?
Without sounding like an advert on Jobserve I am looking for an IT Project Management type role, I have completed a degree in Business Information Technology and I am PRINCE2 certified.
I also have over 2 years experience of working in an IT environment.
All the jobs on Monster etc are all saying about £40k + but before I get my hopes up I know I won't get that sort of salary straight out of university but I don't want to agree to £20k when i know I can easily get £25k with a bit of haggling (if that makes sense!)
So guys what you expect to pay a graduate who has experience and PRINCE2 both in terms of an hourly rate and a salary.
Many Thanks,
Phill
pmanson said:
Hi All,
I know this is like licking my finger and sticking it in the wind but roughly what sort of salary should I as a graduate be looking for?
Without sounding like an advert on Jobserve I am looking for an IT Project Management type role, I have completed a degree in Business Information Technology and I am PRINCE2 certified.
I also have over 2 years experience of working in an IT environment.
All the jobs on Monster etc are all saying about £40k + but before I get my hopes up I know I won't get that sort of salary straight out of university but I don't want to agree to £20k when i know I can easily get £25k with a bit of haggling (if that makes sense!)
So guys what you expect to pay a graduate who has experience and PRINCE2 both in terms of an hourly rate and a salary.
Many Thanks,
Phill
What experience do you have?
John
I never really understand what people mean by "working in an IT environment". In this day and age, that could mean a supermarket checkout operator.
In order to be meaningful you would need to elaborate a lot more on what you mean by that phrase. Certainly, as a potential employer, I would need to know a lot more.
In order to be meaningful you would need to elaborate a lot more on what you mean by that phrase. Certainly, as a potential employer, I would need to know a lot more.
Ok sorry I worked for a large multi national building company. During that time I worked on various projects including:
Business Analysis on various projects,
Application support on internal Finance systems,
Provided sites with detailed requirements and pricing for their ICT infrastructure,
Assisted in the roll out of various company applications both at HO and on sites,
Assisted in the testing of various internal and commerical applications.
Undertook internal asset audits at the Head Office on a number of occasions.
Thanks,
Phill
Business Analysis on various projects,
Application support on internal Finance systems,
Provided sites with detailed requirements and pricing for their ICT infrastructure,
Assisted in the roll out of various company applications both at HO and on sites,
Assisted in the testing of various internal and commerical applications.
Undertook internal asset audits at the Head Office on a number of occasions.
Thanks,
Phill
If you aimed in the £20-£25K range I would say thats about right.
On the one hand PRINCE2 is a hot skill which ensures decent tracking of projects to minimise overrun/overspend and scope creep.
On the other its a universal get out of jail free card for the IT department that annoys people with its relentless neccesity for box ticking and form filling.
On the one hand PRINCE2 is a hot skill which ensures decent tracking of projects to minimise overrun/overspend and scope creep.
On the other its a universal get out of jail free card for the IT department that annoys people with its relentless neccesity for box ticking and form filling.
Plotloss said:
On the one hand PRINCE2 is a hot skill which ensures decent tracking of projects to minimise overrun/overspend and scope creep.
On the other its a universal get out of jail free card for the IT department that annoys people with its relentless neccesity for box ticking and form filling.
Oh so true!
Saying that if that the fact that the framework can be moulded to the companies existing processes means that it can work very well.
However it needs buy in with employees who see it as a paper pushing exercise.
BTW. Matt did you get my email the other week?
Plotloss said:
If you aimed in the £20-£25K range I would say thats about right.
On the one hand PRINCE2 is a hot skill which ensures decent tracking of projects to minimise overrun/overspend and scope creep.
On the other its a universal get out of jail free card for the IT department that annoys people with its relentless neccesity for box ticking and form filling.
£20-25k sounds about right, though TBH I've found the more succesfull PM's in my field to be those who have some solid tech implementation experience (say 5 yrs).
bga said:
If you aimed in the £20-£25K range I would say thats about right.
On the one hand PRINCE2 is a hot skill which ensures decent tracking of projects to minimise overrun/overspend and scope creep.
On the other its a universal get out of jail free card for the IT department that annoys people with its relentless neccesity for box ticking and form filling.
£20-25k sounds about right, though TBH I've found the more succesfull PM's in my field to be those who have some solid tech implementation experience (say 5 yrs).
The problem I have is getting a job that will allow me to get the relevant experience! Most jobs request experience which I have some of but not 5 years worth!
To gain experience in a job it appears I have to have previous experience!
pmanson said:
The problem I have is getting a job that will allow me to get the relevant experience! Most jobs request experience which I have some of but not 5 years worth!
To gain experience in a job it appears I have to have previous experience!
That's how the world works..
You'll most likely end up taking a job lower than you're 'expecting' to put the time in, to allow for an internal promotion into the role you initially wanted, so that you can get gain the requisite experience and move into any job you want.. safe in the knowledge that any other New Grads are very unlikely to be able to get the job as they don't have the relevant experience
GL
These people speak the truth.
In my experience, you are only valuable as a project manager when you have some experience of being involved in projects (not running them) - this could be as a developer or as a business analyst.
If you are truly set on becoming a project manager I would advise getting a business analyst role or a developer role. The skills invovled in project management are knowing the pitfalls, dealing with people etc. basically the only things you can really "learn" by doing. They can teach you all about "scope creap" etc in projects but the only way to really know what this means is to experience it IMHO.
I reckon a decent Junior BA with a proper view to becoming a PM would be about £20-£25k.
You may be lucky and get straight in as a PM but I have to say that I'd be surprised if anyone gave a newbie overall responsibility for anything more that a couple of grand project. Most projects cost a few thousand when you add it all up - to take the chance of pissing it up a wall because of inexperienced PM would take either someone stupid or the Government.
Another option may be to do your "apprenticeship" with one of the management consultancies - i.e. Accenture (who I understand are recruiting like mad at the moment) or EDS etc.
In my experience, you are only valuable as a project manager when you have some experience of being involved in projects (not running them) - this could be as a developer or as a business analyst.
If you are truly set on becoming a project manager I would advise getting a business analyst role or a developer role. The skills invovled in project management are knowing the pitfalls, dealing with people etc. basically the only things you can really "learn" by doing. They can teach you all about "scope creap" etc in projects but the only way to really know what this means is to experience it IMHO.
I reckon a decent Junior BA with a proper view to becoming a PM would be about £20-£25k.
You may be lucky and get straight in as a PM but I have to say that I'd be surprised if anyone gave a newbie overall responsibility for anything more that a couple of grand project. Most projects cost a few thousand when you add it all up - to take the chance of pissing it up a wall because of inexperienced PM would take either someone stupid or the Government.
Another option may be to do your "apprenticeship" with one of the management consultancies - i.e. Accenture (who I understand are recruiting like mad at the moment) or EDS etc.
If you're really career driven (and I add that as a caveat as it's not for everyone), then the ploy I've always used is planning 2 jobs ahead... make sure the next job you get is actually the stepping stone to the one after it (and likewise the one after that). The simplest way to get this to manifest itself is to pitch for your next job having the title that you want, but not necessarily all the duties. That way, when you go for the one after, you can leave out all of the dull stuff from your CV, just focus on the higher-level bits, and be credible for that role. Then repeat as required.
Another question to ask is what you're looking for - a job that's fundamentally rewarding, or the highest salary possible. Unless you're lucky, the two are often mutually exclusive. If you've got underlying power motivations (and I don't mean a Hitler complex - we're talking basic Power-Achievement-Affiliation model), then a PM -> Programme Manager -> senior/Exec management route is quite feasible if you've got the innate ability. If, however, you're more achievement oriented (again, look this up if you've not used the model before as people have their own views on what this means that aren't always accurate), then you'll find management singularly unrewarding and frustrating.
As for graduate salaries, I'd negotiate myself into the right role at a relative "bargain" price with formally agreed (and documented) progression - both monetary and role, with the view that a career's a long-haul game. I.e. go in at, say, £22-23k with a 6 month review to £26k with documented objectives and measures of success to achieve that.
Agree with the other posts that it's generally a very good thing to have experience of doing the things you're wanting to manage. I'm always cautious of PMs that are adept at applying a blame-shielding framework rather than having an underlying understanding and experience of the pitfalls and stopping them happening.
Hope that helps...
Another question to ask is what you're looking for - a job that's fundamentally rewarding, or the highest salary possible. Unless you're lucky, the two are often mutually exclusive. If you've got underlying power motivations (and I don't mean a Hitler complex - we're talking basic Power-Achievement-Affiliation model), then a PM -> Programme Manager -> senior/Exec management route is quite feasible if you've got the innate ability. If, however, you're more achievement oriented (again, look this up if you've not used the model before as people have their own views on what this means that aren't always accurate), then you'll find management singularly unrewarding and frustrating.
As for graduate salaries, I'd negotiate myself into the right role at a relative "bargain" price with formally agreed (and documented) progression - both monetary and role, with the view that a career's a long-haul game. I.e. go in at, say, £22-23k with a 6 month review to £26k with documented objectives and measures of success to achieve that.
Agree with the other posts that it's generally a very good thing to have experience of doing the things you're wanting to manage. I'm always cautious of PMs that are adept at applying a blame-shielding framework rather than having an underlying understanding and experience of the pitfalls and stopping them happening.
Hope that helps...
Thanks Guys,
This feedback is really useful for me.
I really enjoyed the Business Analyst work I did while on my placement as it gave me the opportunity to both work in a successful team and do some independent work with set targets and goals (short, medium and long term).
I certainly found this work far more rewarding than the application support role I did for a while.
I think I was getting myself confused between BA and PM work as they often overlapped where I was working before!
I'm obviously not expecting to earn huge money to start with and would prefer to start a career with a company that provided additional benefits such as training and who also gives me a clear idea of where I was heading within the company.
I could pester my old company for a short term contract but i'm a bit concerned that I would still be the "student" there and feel I perhaps need to prove myself elsewhere.
JSG - Thanks for that its very useful to me! I wish my course had covered some of this it would make this stage a bit easier!
This feedback is really useful for me.
I really enjoyed the Business Analyst work I did while on my placement as it gave me the opportunity to both work in a successful team and do some independent work with set targets and goals (short, medium and long term).
I certainly found this work far more rewarding than the application support role I did for a while.
I think I was getting myself confused between BA and PM work as they often overlapped where I was working before!
I'm obviously not expecting to earn huge money to start with and would prefer to start a career with a company that provided additional benefits such as training and who also gives me a clear idea of where I was heading within the company.
I could pester my old company for a short term contract but i'm a bit concerned that I would still be the "student" there and feel I perhaps need to prove myself elsewhere.
JSG - Thanks for that its very useful to me! I wish my course had covered some of this it would make this stage a bit easier!
pmanson said:
I could pester my old company for a short term contract but i'm a bit concerned that I would still be the "student" there and feel I perhaps need to prove myself elsewhere.
If they run a proper fast-track graduate programme, great. If they don't, you're spot on - it could easily be a dead end as people will already have perceptions of you.
If you've got a good degree from a good university, it might be an idea to hit the standard big-name graduate employers (dig out a copy of the Times top 100); but I'm guessing that's not an option or you'd probably not be asking here! (Plus competition is seriously fierce and the companies fairly cut-throat... I remember one particularly large Investment Bank asking me the question "Which would you choose when it came to a decision based on your morals or our profits?"
) pmanson said:
JSG - Thanks for that its very useful to me! I wish my course had covered some of this it would make this stage a bit easier!
It amazes me how universities teach so much stuff, do all the work around getting HR from big blue-chips to come along and poach their students, try to align the courses to industry (sometimes), but don't do anything to help students figure out what they'd excel at (and enjoy) in the real world.
Took me a good couple of years in industry before I twigged that I couldn't totally walk away from technology - that I had to at least get a chance to "play" from time to time.
J_S_G said:
If they run a proper fast-track graduate programme, great. If they don't, you're spot on - it could easily be a dead end as people will already have perceptions of you.
Believe it or not I was only Student at the company that wasn't sponsered through uni!
I worked for a building company and they sponsered people doing civil engineering etc but as I worked in the Head Office and was an "overhead" they wouldn't sponser me.
I do need to check the top 100 companies out. All being well i'll be graduating with a BSc Hons in Business Information Technology from Bournemouth University.
It's a tough old world out there... If I were you I'd think about what differentiates you from all of the other grads, who also have some gap year experience (and whilst it is experience you will have gained, I very much doub't if you will have experienced the normal pressure linked with the accountability of real project management... and PRINCE2 doesn't make you a good manager by the way)... so I for one wouldn't think anyone would give you anywhere near £40K until you have a proven track record.
Sounds like you're keen though... and like many others here, I'd estimate a starting salary of around £20 - £25k for a good graduate (with a first!)
Good luck...
Sounds like you're keen though... and like many others here, I'd estimate a starting salary of around £20 - £25k for a good graduate (with a first!)
Good luck...
chim_knee said:
All being well i'll be graduating with a BSc Hons in Business Information Technology from Bournemouth University.
Yep I think this is what my housemate has just finished studying. If you don't mind me asking why did you leave?
pmanson said:Not at all...
If you don't mind me asking why did you leave?
Basically I didn't like the course, in that it covered Accountancy and stuff. Also, I didn't take it seriously enough and ended up failing a couple of modules (one being accountancy!
). I had to retake them during the summer etc. I also wasn't a huge fan of Bournemouth itself or (and no disrespect, it was many years ago, things have most likely changed) the type of people the uni attracted. Brighton was far more my kinda town, if you know what I mean.
But it was mostly because I didn't like the course.
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