Bad driving- an observation.

[deltafox]

Much has been written and discussed regarding bad driving, both on this forum and in the media.
Most of the hand wringers complain about speeding with no other thoughts as to what constitutes bad driving.
The non exhaustive list below is a pointer for just these kind of people that theres more, much more than just one aspect to bad driving.

Tailgating (at any speed).
Non use of mirrors.
Non use of indicators.
Dangerous overtakes either within or without the speed limit.
Distraction effects like using mobiles.
Aggressive habits- snatched steering inputs, late braking, violent accelerations.
Poor lane discipline.
Use of excessive speeds without regard to conditions (or driver ability).
Incorrect use of clutch and handbrake.

To name a few, but im sure other posters could add to the above with plenty of their own.

All of the faults above have one thing in common that connects them- attitude.

Ive noticed that drivers just dont seem to take driving as something to be improved upon. Its a method to get from A to B however its done, and irrespective of how badly its done.
Lack of professionalism is directly related to attitude, bad attitude= bad drivers= accidents.

Rather than the likes of the esteemed Hairy Williams and the rest of these idiots like The slowest speeds "initiative" spouting what they do, maybe the powers that be would do best to consider attitude above all other faults as the thing to be improved upon?

I can only speak for myself, but i take pride in "doing it right"- any muppet can do it wrong.

[WildCat]

There was an excellent article some time back in "Autocar" - I think it was Steve Copley - about taking a pride in one's driving. He argued that it was this singular lack of pride - which extend throughout whether it be work, trademanwork (those roofers und electricians from hell und the plumber who always sucks in his teeth - sign of trying to rip you off somewhere ) - which cause mayhem on road.

As far as lacklustre driving skills are concerned - just tell them they are say so long as "dash=lolly sign" und standards continue to plummet...

[rich-uk]

I try and improve my driving every day. It is very hard sometimes not to think 'Fcuk it, if everyone else drives like a twát why shouldn't I' and 'Maybe I should stop trying to drive properly and play the game everyone else is playing' but I persist!

It's getting ridiculous on the roads now, I fear soon I shall have to get rid of my nice car and get a car I don't mind being crashed into, scraped, scratched and generally abused.

I can't wait to see where all this ends up... Everyone doing a computer managed speed, huge (more so) insurance premiums to cover the cost of over 50% of drivers driving uninsured, pay as you go tracking (as well as MOT and fuel tax), automatic speeding fines. Bring it on

[TOPTON]

Totally agree with above points. I also take pride in trying to do it correctly. People do comment on how smooth the journey was-sometimes.
I also take pride in teaching learners to do it correctly. But so many times I have heard them say after passing, " well at least I don't have to do it the right way all the time now"

Passing the test is a license to continue learning and improving, but no one wants to listen to that. Instead, the majority turn into idiots

My pet hate nowadays is the amount of drivers that don't wave a cheery thanks after I have slowed down or stopped to give them priority. As I say to all learners, priority is only yours if the other person gives you it, so wave a thank you.

[WildCat]

I wish some people would learn how to use a car park properly. Ist funny how I can manage to move into und out of bays without scraping anything.

Ist amazing how many people I see bumping und scratching other people's cars und leaving trolleys rolling around

I now park up away from the "madding crowd" on occasion I head to local Tesco or Sainsbury (which has rogue wardens ). Usually I buy the weekly shop for the mini-army here from farmers' markets und shops as cheaper, fresher und I met und said "sorry und you suit mint sauce or rosemary und red wine marinade or horseradish und garlic" to my dinner in a field too.

>> Edited by WildCat on Monday 29th May 12:52

[vonhosen]

WildCat said:

There was an excellent article some time back in "Autocar" - I think it was Steve Copley - about taking a pride in one's driving. He argued that it was this singular lack of pride - which extend throughout whether it be work, trademanwork (those roofers und electricians from hell und the plumber who always sucks in his teeth - sign of trying to rip you off somewhere ) - which cause mayhem on road. As far as lacklustre driving skills are concerned - just tell them they are say so long as "dash=lolly sign" und standards continue to plummet...

What percentage of the millions of drivers on our road, do extra organised on road training ?
Truth is most don't care about their driving, it's a means to get from A to B, no more no less.
I'm afraid it's very rare that I see anyone who's driving I consider of a high standard.

>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 29th May 13:01

[WildCat]

TOPTON said:

Totally agree with above points. I also take pride in trying to do it correctly. People do comment on how smooth the journey was-sometimes. I also take pride in teaching learners to do it correctly. But so many times I have heard them say after passing, " well at least I don't have to do it the right way all the time now" Passing the test is a license to continue learning and improving, but no one wants to listen to that. Instead, the majority turn into idiots My pet hate nowadays is the amount of drivers that don't wave a cheery thanks after I have slowed down or stopped to give them priority. As I say to all learners, priority is only yours if the other person gives you it, so wave a thank you.

Agree :clap; Und a smile of thanks und a wave (if safe to do so) ist so easy to do too. It encourage good manners - nicht?

I think it bad that some think passing test ist "chucking away the Highway Code". We do really need to establish a culture of pride und development - und maybe we need to look at a graded assessment as discussed previously. as a motivation technique but not a threat to mobility.

[WildCat]

vonhosen said:

WildCat said: There was an excellent article some time back in "Autocar" - I think it was Steve Copley - about taking a pride in one's driving. He argued that it was this singular lack of pride - which extend throughout whether it be work, trademanwork (those roofers und electricians from hell und the plumber who always sucks in his teeth - sign of trying to rip you off somewhere ) - which cause mayhem on road. As far as lacklustre driving skills are concerned - just tell them they are say so long as "dash=lolly sign" und standards continue to plummet... What percentage of the millions of drivers on our road, do extra organised on road training ? Truth is most don't care about their driving, it's a means to get from A to B, no more no less. I'm afraid it's very rare that I see anyone who's driving I consider of a high standard. >> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 29th May 13:01

But Liebchen - have you any suggestions as to how to improve upon this.

By the way - I think my husband ist of highest standard - und neither of us seem to get coffee signs or other rude signs. Most seem to give us nice smiles as they appreciate our own smiles und courtesy. So politeness would seem to work a little "magic". Nicht?

[vonhosen]

WildCat said:

But Liebchen - have you any suggestions as to how to improve upon this. By the way - I think my husband ist of highest standard - und neither of us seem to get coffee signs or other rude signs. Most seem to give us nice smiles as they appreciate our own smiles und courtesy. So politeness would seem to work a little "magic". Nicht?

The only way to make sure of higher standards across the board, is to train/test & re-test to a higher standard.

(I don't doubt you consider your husband to be of the highest standard & yes courtesy is important although rare on our roads)





>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 29th May 14:37

[Major Bloodnok]

I've wondered for some time now what the effect would be if the Government had invested all the money they've spent on flashing piggy banks on driver improvement initiatives. A few ideas that I've considered:

Restriction on the power of car you're allowed to drive unless you pass a further test (IAM, RoSPA, whatever).

Persuade insurance companies to reward drivers who make an effort to keep their driving up to scratch.

Your insurance premium goes up automatically every five years unless you take (and pass) a driving check, or otherwise demonstrate that your driving standard is being maintained.

I think I'm preaching to the choir here when I say that the current fascination with enforcing (and reducing) speed limits has more to do with easy sound bites than it does with actually doing anything that will have a positive effect.

[vonhosen]

Major Bloodnok said:

I've wondered for some time now what the effect would be if the Government had invested all the money they've spent on flashing piggy banks on driver improvement initiatives. A few ideas that I've considered:

The government haven't invested money in it, the speeding motorist has.
The cameras are paid for by the speeder & then they also provide a small surplus. The money they've got from cameras they wouldn't have had without them.
If they had wanted those millions they'd still have to have raised by other means.
If they'd taxed everyone to get it, there would have been greater disenchantment & unpopularity. The fact it's people who are breaking the law allows them to do it without more backlash.

Major Bloodnok said:

Restriction on the power of car you're allowed to drive unless you pass a further test (IAM, RoSPA, whatever).

Has already been introduced on bikes, may well follow in future for cars.

Major Bloodnok said:

Persuade insurance companies to reward drivers who make an effort to keep their driving up to scratch.

They have an interest in higher premiums not lower as that's what they are in the business for, to make money. They only go lower where it means they can attract more business from their rates.

Major Bloodnok said:

Your insurance premium goes up automatically every five years unless you take (and pass) a driving check, or otherwise demonstrate that your driving standard is being maintained.

Yes they could always make testing harder & introduce re-testing, but if the numbers who fail rise drmatically what knock on effect does that have on other areas of the economy when we are so heavily reliant on the use of our roads for business ?

Major Bloodnok said:

I think I'm preaching to the choir here when I say that the current fascination with enforcing (and reducing) speed limits has more to do with easy sound bites than it does with actually doing anything that will have a positive effect.

Make no bones about it, the focus on speed is about money.
It's cheaper to deal with the problems of poor driving on our roads by limiting what people can do. If you can't overtake without breaking the limit, you can't overtake & it removes one of the most risky activities.
Yes dealing with the standard of driving has the greatest long term gains, but it requires the most work & investment. Governments go for short term gain at low cost, not the other way round (& that's all governments).

Enforcement is cheaper & more cost effective than education.
It's the easy option & that's why it's taken.







>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 29th May 17:25

[GreenV8S]

I'd like to think that drivers who've had advanced training would be a lower insurance risk, but there seems to be precious little evidence to suggest that this is the case. But to my mind, that would be the natural way for advanced training and qualifications to be promoted. I definitely wouldn't support suggestions that insurance prices should be raised artificially in order to bully people into taking more training.

[vonhosen]

GreenV8S said:

I'd like to think that drivers who've had advanced training would be a lower insurance risk, but there seems to be precious little evidence to suggest that this is the case. But to my mind, that would be the natural way for advanced training and qualifications to be promoted. I definitely wouldn't support suggestions that insurance prices should be raised artificially in order to bully people into taking more training.

I certainly wasn't suggesting that myself, when talking of retesting etc.
I was talking from a position of a higher standard of DSA testing & retesting being introduced by them (independent of any insurance premium considerations.)
I agree the level of training you have, currently appears to make little difference to premiums.

>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 29th May 17:28

[flemke]

More testing won't accomplish anything.
The UK already has a rather stringent driving test, yet a year after they've passed it, how many people drive even 5% of the time to the standard that they demonstrated during that test?

If you want to motivate people to drive better, the most likely incentive is a reward if they do so.
As we have said here before, if you gave people the chance to qualify for a higher level that comes with fewer speed restrictions, that would be very attractive to many, especially to young males who as a group are the most dangerous drivers. Bad driving would result in permanent disqualification for the advanced licence.

For most holders of that advanced licence, the freedom that it offered would be a powerful incentive to keep it, and the only way to keep it would be to avoid bad driving.

[vonhosen]

flemke said:

More testing won't accomplish anything. The UK already has a rather stringent driving test, yet a year after they've passed it, how many people drive even 5% of the time to the standard that they demonstrated during that test? If you want to motivate people to drive better, the most likely incentive is a reward if they do so. As we have said here before, if you gave people the chance to qualify for a higher level that comes with fewer speed restrictions, that would be very attractive to many, especially to young males who as a group are the most dangerous drivers. Bad driving would result in permanent disqualification for the advanced licence. For most holders of that advanced licence, the freedom that it offered would be a powerful incentive to keep it, and the only way to keep it would be to avoid bad driving.

I wasn't discounting tiered licencing with retesting. Of course tiered licencing would have to be realisticly administrative (there would be a lot of hurdles to overcome) & socially acceptable. It doesn't look likely to happen in the present climate.

>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 29th May 17:52

[GreenV8S]

I suspect that part of the problem is that the mechanical process of driving a car requires so little skill these days that they are regarded almost as white goods. I think we are already at the point where a typical driver can get in, drive across town and park without having to pay any attention to what they are doing - where's the incentive to get extra training?

[deltafox]

Thats an interesting point Flemke, re; the reward idea.

I had thought about that before, but itll never get introduced, too much pigheadeness from the authorities to admit theyre wrong and do the right thing.
And so standards will continue to drop ever lower into the gutter, with no incentive to improve.
Toptons remark about lack of courtesey is also an interesting one, and it largely reflects attitudes again in the way people deal with each other in britain today, shame it has to get translated into such crap driving too.

As i see it we have very few options left. The scamera approach has been "tested" on us and has proven to be a complete and total waste of lives or is that money?
The scam system is dying on its arse in terms of acceptance from drivers and effectiveness at prevention of speeding- it simply does not work, mores the pity as thats supposed to be what it was for, not widescale prosecution and money generation for quango "partnerships".

Changing of driver attitudes would be a more effective method to improve skill levels, and as can be seen, all stick and no carrot isnt the way to go and the non hackers should be weeded out correctly in the test, its the only way i can see to get quality drivers with pride and professionalism as their goals.

We need a change of direction to get the kind of drivers we would all like to be.

[TripleS]

vonhosen said:

It's cheaper to deal with the problems of poor driving on our roads by limiting what people can do. If you can't overtake without breaking the limit, you can't overtake & it removes one of the most risky activities. Yes dealing with the standard of driving has the greatest long term gains, but it requires the most work & investment. Governments go for short term gain at low cost, not the other way round (& that's all governments). Enforcement is cheaper & more cost effective than education. It's the easy option & that's why it's taken.

Well I admit that I can't prove it, but I very much doubt that many drivers refrain from overtaking because of concern for the NSL. If they are minded to overtake, and have the confidence to do so, I expect that's about all that governs their actions.

As for 'easy options' it's time we started doing things properly, instead of repeatedly wasting resources on half baked policies.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[turbobloke]

vonhosen said:

It's cheaper to deal with the problems of poor driving on our roads by limiting what people can do.

If it doesn't work, it's a waste of money and a false economy. Our fatac trend has basically flatlined under the 'speed kills' lunacy. Rejecting price and using appropriate quality criteria based on research may seem more expensive but that's just front-end investment mistaken for cost. Officialdom under nu labia couldn't run an orgy in a brothel never mind devise and implement an effective road safety policy - and it is a nu labia phenomenon, they are the most incompetent of all the incompetents we've seen.

[rich 36]

Might a lot of this be down to a combination of;

Drivers environment
being cocooned in a comfy insular warm place, apparently immune to injury
with air bags/impact sensors/crash tested euro-boxes

Drivers attitude;
'So what he crashes into me,
Its his fault not looking where he's goin'

I'm not in the wrong, it says 30, nah thats for old cars an old fashioned brakes,
my Corsa'll stop in its own length, so i'll do 50-55'