A question of good progress
Discussion
If I am following a flow of traffic at about 45-50mph in an NSL and I know the stretch of road isn't particularly long (before much lower limits) I'm becoming increasingly pragmatic and asking myself 'is it worth it overtaking?' to which I answer, no. At best, I might get past two or three cars and still be in the same flow of traffic.
On the bike I would endeavour to overtake the whole traffic queue but given the performance and size of the car, this isn't possible.
Does this constitute not making good progress and missing of overtakes?
On the bike I would endeavour to overtake the whole traffic queue but given the performance and size of the car, this isn't possible.
Does this constitute not making good progress and missing of overtakes?
I travel a lot between Whitby and Scarborough - 21 miles of SC road, mostly 60 mph limit 
apart from villages near each end.
If there is very little other traffic I overtake and press on. If there is a lot of traffic I don't attempt to overtake much, as all it means is that I'm perhaps three or four places nearer the front of the queue at the end of the journey, maybe saving 30 seconds. In terms of time saved it is not worth bothering.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
apart from villages near each end. If there is very little other traffic I overtake and press on. If there is a lot of traffic I don't attempt to overtake much, as all it means is that I'm perhaps three or four places nearer the front of the queue at the end of the journey, maybe saving 30 seconds. In terms of time saved it is not worth bothering.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
gridgway said:
A car travelling at 50 is quite hard to overtake on an NSL road unless you have got a long clear piece of road. A 10mph speed differential means it takes quite a time to get by!
Graham
Indeed, that's why I sadi where safe to.
Where it isn't safe, of course you don't go.
rsvmilly said:
If I am following a flow of traffic at about 45-50mph in an NSL and I know the stretch of road isn't particularly long (before much lower limits) I'm becoming increasingly pragmatic and asking myself 'is it worth it overtaking?' to which I answer, no. At best, I might get past two or three cars and still be in the same flow of traffic.
On the bike I would endeavour to overtake the whole traffic queue but given the performance and size of the car, this isn't possible.
Does this constitute not making good progress and missing of overtakes?
In your situation, you made the right choice. The answer is no. You are pressuring yourself to "be in front" a problem that has plagued the driving on our roads for far too long. To be one or two cars ahead, why bother. You will be making up just a couple of seconds, but stressing yourself in the process. Chill out, why bother.
The safest way to overtake is as fast as possible, I was once told by a police instructor how many seconds is considered safe... something like 12, which is the time taken from Mirror/signal....... to pulling in fully. When I used to run my old Nova Sport race car on the road, following a car at 50, I could pass it in about 6 seconds from indicate/tread on gas, to pull back in (and lift off to resume NSL).
Rob
The important time to measure is the time after you are out and in the overtaking position with a view, but able to pull back in ot the point where you are ahead and able to pull back in -- ie from the point or no return to the point of safe completion.
This is quite a lot less than 12s for a singel vehicle overtake in my experience.
This is quite a lot less than 12s for a singel vehicle overtake in my experience.
thunderbelmont said:That pretty much sums it upl. If I judge there is anything to gain (and that might just be an unhindered fast drive through a set of corners I like) then I'll overtake. I just wondered if 'to make good progress' you should take every (safe) overtake.
If I am following a flow of traffic at about 45-50mph in an NSL and I know the stretch of road isn't particularly long (before much lower limits) I'm becoming increasingly pragmatic and asking myself 'is it worth it overtaking?' to which I answer, no. At best, I might get past two or three cars and still be in the same flow of traffic.
On the bike I would endeavour to overtake the whole traffic queue but given the performance and size of the car, this isn't possible.
Does this constitute not making good progress and missing of overtakes?
In your situation, you made the right choice. The answer is no. You are pressuring yourself to "be in front" a problem that has plagued the driving on our roads for far too long. To be one or two cars ahead, why bother. You will be making up just a couple of seconds, but stressing yourself in the process. Chill out, why bother.
thunderbelmont said:I daresay it doesn't take me any longer to pass; when I'm overtaking, the speed limit is a secondary consideration.
The safest way to overtake is as fast as possible, I was once told by a police instructor how many seconds is considered safe... something like 12, which is the time taken from Mirror/signal....... to pulling in fully. When I used to run my old Nova Sport race car on the road, following a car at 50, I could pass it in about 6 seconds from indicate/tread on gas, to pull back in (and lift off to resume NSL).
Rob
Couple of quick points, if I may be so bold, since this in the Advnaced section.
1) To make good progress, you should make the overtake, where it is safe to do so (working to point 2 below). That way you are always in a position to make even more progress, where the circumstances allow. So, you should overtake, then reduce speed where appropriate to the limits, then speed up when NSL, overtaking where appropriate. That makes good progress. So if you don't do it, it's not the end of the world, you are just not making the progress you should make.
2) You shouldn't break the limit when overtaking. There isn't a "ha ha, what about..." exception. You shouldn't do it. So if you are at 50mph, in the NSL, and there isn't sufficient space to safely overtake without going above 60mph, then you shouldn't overtake. Same on the motorway, at 70mph limit. Etc., etc., etc. All the Advanced Systems are very clear on this. You dont break the limit to overtake. You may decide to do so. Then you are in the wrong.
BFF
1) To make good progress, you should make the overtake, where it is safe to do so (working to point 2 below). That way you are always in a position to make even more progress, where the circumstances allow. So, you should overtake, then reduce speed where appropriate to the limits, then speed up when NSL, overtaking where appropriate. That makes good progress. So if you don't do it, it's not the end of the world, you are just not making the progress you should make.
2) You shouldn't break the limit when overtaking. There isn't a "ha ha, what about..." exception. You shouldn't do it. So if you are at 50mph, in the NSL, and there isn't sufficient space to safely overtake without going above 60mph, then you shouldn't overtake. Same on the motorway, at 70mph limit. Etc., etc., etc. All the Advanced Systems are very clear on this. You dont break the limit to overtake. You may decide to do so. Then you are in the wrong.
BFF
Big Fat F'er said:
Couple of quick points, if I may be so bold, since this in the Advnaced section.
1) To make good progress, you should make the overtake, where it is safe to do so (working to point 2 below). That way you are always in a position to make even more progress, where the circumstances allow. So, you should overtake, then reduce speed where appropriate to the limits, then speed up when NSL, overtaking where appropriate. That makes good progress. So if you don't do it, it's not the end of the world, you are just not making the progress you should make.
2) You shouldn't break the limit when overtaking. There isn't a "ha ha, what about..." exception. You shouldn't do it. So if you are at 50mph, in the NSL, and there isn't sufficient space to safely overtake without going above 60mph, then you shouldn't overtake. Same on the motorway, at 70mph limit. Etc., etc., etc. All the Advanced Systems are very clear on this. You dont break the limit to overtake. You may decide to do so. Then you are in the wrong.BFF
Can't argue with anything you've said. You are technically 100% correct. Any flexibility I exercise with the speed limit is my choice. I'll always look to minimise TED and complete overtakes as quickly as possible as that is safer - just not necessarily legal.
Big Fat F'er said:
Couple of quick points, if I may be so bold, since this in the Advnaced section.
1) To make good progress, you should make the overtake, where it is safe to do so (working to point 2 below). That way you are always in a position to make even more progress, where the circumstances allow. So, you should overtake, then reduce speed where appropriate to the limits, then speed up when NSL, overtaking where appropriate. That makes good progress. So if you don't do it, it's not the end of the world, you are just not making the progress you should make.
2) You shouldn't break the limit when overtaking. There isn't a "ha ha, what about..." exception. You shouldn't do it. So if you are at 50mph, in the NSL, and there isn't sufficient space to safely overtake without going above 60mph, then you shouldn't overtake. Same on the motorway, at 70mph limit. Etc., etc., etc. All the Advanced Systems are very clear on this. You dont break the limit to overtake. You may decide to do so. Then you are in the wrong.
BFF
IMHO:
1. Nobody should be expected to be 'making progress' all the time, though the ability to do it when appropriate is, I accept, a quality that advanced drivers should have.
2. In the eyes of the law OK, but otherwise... No.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
there's an interesting judgement skill needed here which I don't really know how to get. After many years of driving, I am comfortable that I can reasonably judge whether I am able to overtake safely. What I have never really managed is to consciously judge in advance whether I will break a speed limit.
Is there a technique or is it just a matter of practise whilst being more cogniscent of the speed whilst overtaking. I must admit that on a road where I judge it safe to go faster than the limit whilst overtaking, I will probably do it. Wrong I know. Technique I need!
Graham
Is there a technique or is it just a matter of practise whilst being more cogniscent of the speed whilst overtaking. I must admit that on a road where I judge it safe to go faster than the limit whilst overtaking, I will probably do it. Wrong I know. Technique I need!
Graham
gridgway said:
there's an interesting judgement skill needed here which I don't really know how to get. After many years of driving, I am comfortable that I can reasonably judge whether I am able to overtake safely. What I have never really managed is to consciously judge in advance whether I will break a speed limit.
Is there a technique or is it just a matter of practise whilst being more cogniscent of the speed whilst overtaking. I must admit that on a road where I judge it safe to go faster than the limit whilst overtaking, I will probably do it. Wrong I know. Technique I need!
Graham
It's only wrong if you really believe that slavish adherence to the speed limit is necessary in law or morality. That proposition, on either count, is nonsensical; although the present obesessive speed enforcement policy is escalating the former consideration far beyond its deserved importance.
Let's not be precious about this! Advanced driving, if it means anything, means minimising risks. There is no greater risk than facing oncoming traffic so, if overtaking, the priority is to complete the manouvre as quickly as possible in order to return to a position of safety. The alternative is not to overtake at all. Overtaking slowly is a dangerous nonsense!
That said, I don't see single vehicle overtakes as much of a problem since the speed reached to get past is relatively modest. It's more of an issue when overtaking several vehicles at one go, especially with a fast car. Here, the terminal speed is likely to be way in excess of the NSL and this poses real issues. Apart from the fact that you'll be breaking the limit by a big margin, you also have to keep in mind that the vehicles towards the front of the queue could well be taken by surprise by the speed at which you're closing with them. The danger of, say, the second car in the queue pulling out in front of you is very real and this possibility, as much as the niceties of the speed limit, should curtail your enthusiasm!
That said, I don't see single vehicle overtakes as much of a problem since the speed reached to get past is relatively modest. It's more of an issue when overtaking several vehicles at one go, especially with a fast car. Here, the terminal speed is likely to be way in excess of the NSL and this poses real issues. Apart from the fact that you'll be breaking the limit by a big margin, you also have to keep in mind that the vehicles towards the front of the queue could well be taken by surprise by the speed at which you're closing with them. The danger of, say, the second car in the queue pulling out in front of you is very real and this possibility, as much as the niceties of the speed limit, should curtail your enthusiasm!
gdaybruce said:
It's more of an issue when overtaking several vehicles at one go, especially with a fast car. Here, the terminal speed is likely to be way in excess of the NSL and this poses real issues. Apart from the fact that you'll be breaking the limit by a big margin, you also have to keep in mind that the vehicles towards the front of the queue could well be taken by surprise by the speed at which you're closing with them. The danger of, say, the second car in the queue pulling out in front of you is very real and this possibility, as much as the niceties of the speed limit, should curtail your enthusiasm!
That description sends all sorts of alarm bells ringing.
Overtaking a lone car is a simple matter of judging speed and distance. Overtaking a car which is following another car is far more dangerous because they may be planning their own overtaking manoeuver rather than thinking about you. Overtaking a single car in a queue is quite dangerous IMO because of this, although you can mitigate this by attracting their attention. Passing multiple cars ups the ante though because now the cars you're passing have much less chance to see you even supposing they're looking.
There's something else that goes wrong with multiple overtakes. If you accelerate during the whole overtake, you end up with potentially very high closing speeds, eveything happens much quicker (less time for them to notice you, less time for you to avoid them if they don't), you have to commit much further back, you need much longer to slow down and fit back into a gap, all the risks are increased. This may be fine if you've got enough space to drive around anyone who could possibly pull out, but on a typical two lane road you probably don't have that option. In those situations I'd only consider passing a line of cars as a sequence of individual overtakes, not necessarily pulling back in after each car but keeping the relative speed low enough that I could do if it became necessary. And obviously the lights would be on and I'd be poised to hit the horm and brakes.
The idea of just pulling out and accelerating flat out past a whole line of cars sounds bl**dy scary to me.
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