997 GT3 OVERPRICE?
Discussion
No...I don't think the price/bhp relationship is as precise as you imply.....consider the outgoing 996 3.6 TT...this gave 420bhp and a base price higher than the 997 GT3.
Porsche has upped the quoted output of the 3.6 Gt3 from 380 (996) quoted to 415 (997)....surely thats progress???
The question to ask on engine size is should the 997 RS have the 3.8 litre lump to differentiate it from the "cooking" GT3,,,after all Porsche put a 3.8 in the RS back in 1995
Porsche has upped the quoted output of the 3.6 Gt3 from 380 (996) quoted to 415 (997)....surely thats progress???
The question to ask on engine size is should the 997 RS have the 3.8 litre lump to differentiate it from the "cooking" GT3,,,after all Porsche put a 3.8 in the RS back in 1995
IIRC, the 3.6 in the GT2/3/Turbo, is not the same as the 3.6 engine in the rest of the range, which is what the 3.8 is based on. Apparently 3600 is the maximum safe size for that motor, which started in the GT1 as a 3.2
edited to add: chastise me if im wrong
edited to add: chastise me if im wrong
Edited by bobthemonkey on Saturday 10th June 21:46
GT2 said:
The new GT3 looks wonderful, but do you think the engine should upgrade more?
3.6 Liter, 415hp do you think that's enough and match the price?
Don't you think a 3.8 GT3 will be much better at this price range?
3.6 Liter, 415hp do you think that's enough and match the price?
Don't you think a 3.8 GT3 will be much better at this price range?
According to the presenter at Porsche Reading today, the ram air induction on the new GT3 accounts for about 10hp. When asked the question, he said that the engine would dyno on most dynos around 405hp because of the lack of airflow... Mind you, these are 405/415php (Porsche HP...
) Besides, given the performance numbers of the new car, how much more hp would you want? Not many <£100k cars can offer the performance and thoroughness of engineering evident in the new GT3 out of the box...
Edited by polarexpress on Saturday 10th June 21:51
Adrien, I think he was wrong about the bhp from the ram air being included in the figures quoted. There is an interview with Preusinger regarding the 996 RS where he was asked that, and he said they dont include the ram air as it can't be homologated, given there is no ram air on the bench dyno. The RS makes 10-15bhp from it too...
The other interesting thing from todays talk was that Porsche wanted to make it 3.8 but could not due to homologation/racing reasons. Perhaps the next iteration... (thats me guessing, they gave no hints!)
Oh and the fact that the standard exhaust is 108db static. Thats a real problem for a lot of uk trackdays. They are feeding our objections back to Porsche ag, but not sure if anything will come of it. Apparently people complained the 996 didn't sound potent enough (which I agree with), so I suspect they'll be nonplussed to hear complaints in the opposite direction!
The other interesting thing from todays talk was that Porsche wanted to make it 3.8 but could not due to homologation/racing reasons. Perhaps the next iteration... (thats me guessing, they gave no hints!)
Oh and the fact that the standard exhaust is 108db static. Thats a real problem for a lot of uk trackdays. They are feeding our objections back to Porsche ag, but not sure if anything will come of it. Apparently people complained the 996 didn't sound potent enough (which I agree with), so I suspect they'll be nonplussed to hear complaints in the opposite direction!
Edited by DanH on Saturday 10th June 22:22
DanH said:
Adrien, I think he was wrong about the bhp from the ram air being included in the figures quoted. There is an interview with Preusinger regarding the 996 RS where he was asked that, and he said they dont include the ram air as it can't be homologated, given there is no ram air on the bench dyno. The RS makes 10-15bhp from it too...
The other interesting thing from todays talk was that Porsche wanted to make it 3.8 but could not due to homologation/racing reasons. Perhaps the next iteration... (thats me guessing, they gave no hints!)
Oh and the fact that the standard exhaust is 108db static. Thats a real problem for a lot of uk trackdays. They are feeding our objections back to Porsche ag, but not sure if anything will come of it. Apparently people complained the 996 didn't sound potent enough (which I agree with), so I suspect they'll be nonplussed to hear complaints in the opposite direction!
The other interesting thing from todays talk was that Porsche wanted to make it 3.8 but could not due to homologation/racing reasons. Perhaps the next iteration... (thats me guessing, they gave no hints!)
Oh and the fact that the standard exhaust is 108db static. Thats a real problem for a lot of uk trackdays. They are feeding our objections back to Porsche ag, but not sure if anything will come of it. Apparently people complained the 996 didn't sound potent enough (which I agree with), so I suspect they'll be nonplussed to hear complaints in the opposite direction!
Edited by DanH on Saturday 10th June 22:22
Blimey Dan you were paying attention, all you say matches up with what was said at the GT3 launch day at Thruxton.
The one thing that wasn't discussed there was the exhaust noise, for goodness sake don't go getting them to change that just because of track day restrictions. Go buy a new aftermarket system that is quieter (that will be a first!!!) & leave the rest of us to enjoy the fantastic noise the car makes as standard!!
DanH said:
The other interesting thing from todays talk was that Porsche wanted to make it 3.8 but could not due to homologation/racing reasons. Perhaps the next iteration... (thats me guessing, they gave no hints!)
could be a problem with the endurance of the 3.8, compared to the race derived 3.6 fitted as standard - it's something to do with the block casting iirc.
343bhp said:
...please dont quieten the exhaust for the UK ! it is fine as it is...
Great that's two of us, lets start a campaign, keep our GT3's LOUD as god intended!
By the way 343bhp you are going to have to change your log in name to 415bhp, then what happens if you decide to modify the car instead, best change it to "500bhp-ish"
porkernut said:
343bhp said:
...please dont quieten the exhaust for the UK ! it is fine as it is...
Great that's two of us, lets start a campaign, keep our GT3's LOUD as god intended!
By the way 343bhp you are going to have to change your log in name to 415bhp, then what happens if you decide to modify the car instead, best change it to "500bhp-ish"
Well its one of those dynamically switching exhausts, its just the ECU controls it not a button on the dash. Maybe they can sort out an override to keep it quieter for track usage? I guess the vacuum line could be disconnected if necessary to keep it quiet. The extra torque in sport mode is generated by manipulating the exhaust to generate more back pressure.
Failing that, it seems ironic that people will be fitting aftermarket exhausts to quieten the car down!
I know where you guys are coming from though, the 996 GT3 sounds a bit limp, but surely a majority of people will be wanting to track their GT3s so this is a real issue.
Also got some information on volumes, apparently they aren't fixed yet and they will see how the order book looks. They are aware of peoples objections, but I got the impression they won't handle things radically different to the 996 GT3s. The orderbooks aren't full yet for the GT3, whilst they are nearly full for 07 on the turbo.
There were some questions about the parallel imports by Tom Hartley etc. Basically nothing they can do about it. He explained how they have a block exemption exemption due to the nature of their business on car sales (not servicing), but it meant they were obliged to fulfill foreign orders made by real customers - they don't have to sell to businesses, to avoid the risk of tescos etc selling 911s. However Tom Hartley et al, put their orders in as real customers, so it's very hard for them to vet. If they block a real customer (not a proxy for the importers), then they risk losing their exemption.
Edited by DanH on Sunday 11th June 10:41
bobthemonkey said:
DanH said:
The other interesting thing from todays talk was that Porsche wanted to make it 3.8 but could not due to homologation/racing reasons. Perhaps the next iteration... (thats me guessing, they gave no hints!)
could be a problem with the endurance of the 3.8, compared to the race derived 3.6 fitted as standard - it's something to do with the block casting iirc.
Dunno - they've made the other semi dry sump engine 3.8 though?
DanH said:
Also got some information on volumes, apparently they aren't fixed yet and they will see how the order book looks. They are aware of peoples objections, but I got the impression they won't handle things radically different to the 996 GT3s. The orderbooks aren't full yet for the GT3, whilst they are nearly full for 07 on the turbo.
Dan that is totally opposite to what their GM of marketing said at the Thruxton event, he said around two cars per dealer 2007MY, my OPC say they have 4 orders & only 2 cars confirmed for 07 MY,I wish Porsche/OPC's would get their story straight, so we all know where we are!
If the speculators get their hands on a host of direct imports it with shoot residuals to pieces. I really wish these people would go away, 100% for sure I would NEVER grace their doors by paying "overs" for the current it car. The only good news is they have shot themselves in the foot with a good number of recent launches, like Bentley Continental, Lambo Gallardo, Aston Martin V8 etc. the speculators actually caused such huge short term over supply that these in demand "it cars" could be purchased new below list..tee hee!
Re the exhaust, it made me think that all these aftermarket boys, particularly the 'straight through' cat bypass and muffler bypass units are maybe missing out on the back pressure issue, which from the graph we were shown gave significant improvements in the mid-range.
Seems Porsche do carry out the odd bit of research after all.
As for the comment on least profit model it was stressed to us that the GT3 programme was an essential part of the companies continued developement.
Seems Porsche do carry out the odd bit of research after all.
As for the comment on least profit model it was stressed to us that the GT3 programme was an essential part of the companies continued developement.
porkernut said:
DanH said:
Also got some information on volumes, apparently they aren't fixed yet and they will see how the order book looks. They are aware of peoples objections, but I got the impression they won't handle things radically different to the 996 GT3s. The orderbooks aren't full yet for the GT3, whilst they are nearly full for 07 on the turbo.
Dan that is totally opposite to what their GM of marketing said at the Thruxton event, he said around two cars per dealer 2007MY, my OPC say they have 4 orders & only 2 cars confirmed for 07 MY,I wish Porsche/OPC's would get their story straight, so we all know where we are!
If the speculators get their hands on a host of direct imports it with shoot residuals to pieces. I really wish these people would go away, 100% for sure I would NEVER grace their doors by paying "overs" for the current it car. The only good news is they have shot themselves in the foot with a good number of recent launches, like Bentley Continental, Lambo Gallardo, Aston Martin V8 etc. the speculators actually caused such huge short term over supply that these in demand "it cars" could be purchased new below list..tee hee!
The guy talking about the volumes on Sat was probably the same chap who spoke to you. He basically said limited volumes, but people pinned him down (a lot of sore RS owners in the audience) and he said no caps had been fixed on volume yet, it really depends how the order book develops, but they don't want to have oversupply. It's all pretty open to interpretation, so maybe I'm being overly negative. From one of his comments about there only being x 996 GT3 mk2s, I'm not sure Porsche particularly feel they oversupplied it, and if you compare to other 996s thats probably true.
He did say 1 RS has been allocated per dealer, but beyond that there is a central pool which dealers can apply to on a first come first served basis. He mentioned the RS is going to have a longer production period than the 996 RS although that doesn't mean anything wrt volumes.
Edited by DanH on Sunday 11th June 22:52
Dan - good to meet you on Saturday at last.
I must admit I overlooked the bit about the flappy valve exhaust thing, but it makes sense.
Porkernut - you're in for a long wait if you're expecting PGB to say "Right - we're having 63 997 GT3RS' and that's your lot". No such thing as limited editions anymore I'm afraid. Porsceh are in the BUSINESS of selling cars; if you want one, you can buy one....
I must admit I overlooked the bit about the flappy valve exhaust thing, but it makes sense.
Porkernut - you're in for a long wait if you're expecting PGB to say "Right - we're having 63 997 GT3RS' and that's your lot". No such thing as limited editions anymore I'm afraid. Porsceh are in the BUSINESS of selling cars; if you want one, you can buy one....
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