More nails in coffin of Rail Network
Discussion
www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1-560393,00.html
I wouldn't want Richard Bowker's position.. talk about poisoned chalice.. still, if he can contribute to Billy Liar's downfall then I'll buy the guy a pint.
If anyone's interested, Alastair Darling, Minister of Transport is on Any Questions on Radio 4 this weekend..
hmm.. 50% more rail passengers by 20 past 4 this afternoon (or whatever daft target date it was..)
Rail cash crisis forces projects U-turn
The cash crisis on the railways today forced the Strategic Rail Authority to scale back major projects and delay others in a further blow to the Government's rail strategy.
The SRA said today that rising costs had meant that the rail industry's operating deficit had risen from £200 million in 1999-2000 to £1.5 billion in 2002-03.
The SRA said: "Some large-scale projects are being de-scoped or deferred and funding for smaller schemes is being reduced."
One of the schemes affected is the upgrade to the London to Scotland East Coast Main Line, which will now be smaller in scope, with train frequency improvement plans "subject to affordability".
Virtually all the £33 billion of public money committed to the railways over the current decade has been swallowed up by rising costs. The cost of basic track maintenance has doubled and the West Coast Main Line upgrade has increased from the £2 billion original estimate to £10 billion.
The authority's chairman Richard Bowker, who recently announced a reduction of more than 100 trains a day to make the timetable run more smoothly, warned that further "tough decisions" would need to be taken this year.
Today's admission marks the final collapse of the Government's plan to get motorists out of cars and on to public transport and comes after last month's announcement that road congestion will increase by up to a fifth by the end of the decade.
Mr Bowker is now hoping his slimmed-down plan and attempts to control costs will pave the way for another strategic plan this time next year, which will form the SRA's case to the Government for much-needed extra funds.
Last year's SRA plan set out clear dates for a number of schemes. Today's plan sees few commitments to a positive timescale:
East Coast Main Line- The upgrade of this main London to Scotland route is being scaled back and there is some doubt as to just how much of it will now go ahead.
Some work will start in 2004-05 including works at Allington in Lincolnshire to provide a chord separating fast trains from slower trains crossing the main line and preliminary works to improve capacity at the southern end of the route will be implemented shortly after.
But plans to increase train frequencies, which could be carried out between 2005-10, are "subject to affordability and further assessment of value for money". Further investment would depend on the completion of wider studies.
East London Line extension- This scheme has been revised because "projected costs had increased significantly". The original completion date of 2006 was now unlikely to be met and 2008 was now more likely.
Crossrail - This east-west cross-London scheme, backed by Ken LIvingstone, the London Mayor, is still under consideration. The SRA and the Transport for London body are preparing the business case for the project. But no commitment has yet been made to fund the project, nor has any decision been made on the exact route.
West Coast Main Line- The SRA announced the revised plan for this much-delayed £9.7 billion upgrade last year. The entire project should be finished by 2008 by which time journey times between London, the Midlands, the north of England and Scotland will have been much reduced as 125mph tilting trains operate on the line.
Replacement for slam-door trains - A number of trains which will replace the old slam-door rolling stock on southern England commuter routes have not been able to introduced because of power supply problems.
The SRA is expected shortly to announce the award of a £1 billion contract for a power supply upgrade which will enable the new trains to be introduced.
Future of North-South high-speed line- A feasibility study has suggested that by 2016, major main lines will be running to full capacity and that a new line using 200mph trains could be built. This could be better value than merely upgrading existing lines, said the study.
The SRA is to consult on the conclusions of the study and said today that such a line with such trains - to rival the French high-speed TGVs - could "bring significant wider benefits to the UK economy".
I wouldn't want Richard Bowker's position.. talk about poisoned chalice.. still, if he can contribute to Billy Liar's downfall then I'll buy the guy a pint.
If anyone's interested, Alastair Darling, Minister of Transport is on Any Questions on Radio 4 this weekend..
Cost of flying is distorted by tax relief on aviation fuel.
plotloss said: When it costs about three and a half quid to fly to Scotland why do they need a bloody train anyway?
The relief should be abolished and the money ploughed into the railways.
>> Edited by CarZee (moderator) on Thursday 30th January 15:49
Network rail was a doomed institution from the start
not commercially free to operate as railtrack had been
and run by more or less the same bunch of clowns as before.
Sadly they need a government subsidy to make railways an attractive proposition but too many of the contractors and operators have taken the profits up front and not delivered the work on time and in budget
these guys know that if they screw the job up and run over time and over bugget they will get bailed out again and again by the govt.
I am against nationalisation - i sthink privatisation was right - but they must find middle management and operating stuff who are genuinely effective.
not commercially free to operate as railtrack had been
and run by more or less the same bunch of clowns as before.
Sadly they need a government subsidy to make railways an attractive proposition but too many of the contractors and operators have taken the profits up front and not delivered the work on time and in budget
these guys know that if they screw the job up and run over time and over bugget they will get bailed out again and again by the govt.
I am against nationalisation - i sthink privatisation was right - but they must find middle management and operating stuff who are genuinely effective.
A fundamental rethink is required here.
In my experience it is always more expensive and time consuming trying to repair/improve such large schemes where there is a large degree of uncertainty, simply because the scope of the works changes so often.
The easier, quicker and tidier solution will be to dig up the whole line and rebuild, possibly to allow super-high speed trains to use the new tracks.
In my experience it is always more expensive and time consuming trying to repair/improve such large schemes where there is a large degree of uncertainty, simply because the scope of the works changes so often.
The easier, quicker and tidier solution will be to dig up the whole line and rebuild, possibly to allow super-high speed trains to use the new tracks.
Very True.
swilly said: In my experience it is always more expensive and time consuming trying to repair/improve such large schemes where there is a large degree of uncertainty, simply because the scope of the works changes so often.
However, it is in line with Government Policy - which also changes every five minutes
which is possibly why we will have to find another £11bn pa in tax (ft.com today 
) to fund Gordon's lifestyle, and pay for all the extra civil servants that we have aquired over the last eight years to cope with this continuing yo-yoing of policy.
:reallyfurious: The end result is exactly the same as the trains. We spend twice as much money as we should, and get exactly five percent of the service that we are entitled to.
CarZee said:Cost of flying is distorted by tax relief on aviation fuel.
plotloss said: When it costs about three and a half quid to fly to Scotland why do they need a bloody train anyway?
The relief should be abolished and the money ploughed into the railways.
>> Edited by CarZee (moderator) on Thursday 30th January 15:49
Here's a first. Carzee, I don't agree with you!
The aviation industry is one of the few remaining world class manufacturing industries that we retain in this country. It employs lots of people and attracts lots of the best engineering brains. Air travel is fast, convenient and, despite what the eco-nazis would have you believe, very efficient. Aviation deserves as much as it can get.
I have worked in the rail industry for about 18 months, and only on a part time basis (2nd job).
But it's still quite an eye-opener - the strategic planning side often makes local government look efficient!
BUT... If there has been a massive increase in costs, perhaps it is not the contractors taking a huge cut, but the original estimates were waaay too low. And of course that wouldn't have been politically motivated would it?
Imagine the government saying "we are going to make the railways great again, and it will only cost 250 billion..." Outcry perhaps? Would the public have thought "bugger that, lets just stick to using roads"?
But having spent the inadequate initial sum, they can blame everybody else, eg contractors, for spending all 'their' money without doing the work. Convenient.
That contractor would have tendered for that job, so should have been a fair price for the work listed at tender stage. If work is added or found necessary later, that is not the contractors fault. And of course he will get all the money/mileage he can out of it - it is business, not charity!
Also there should be people checking the work and subsequent payments - if the work wasn't done they wouldn't get payed. I imagine it would be the same people who originally prepared the contract - Railtrack (Network Rail now of course).
And everybody knows how well the concept and execution of Railtrack turned out
The increase in rule changes, working procedures and general red tape, even over the last 18 months, all coming from Railtrack/Network Rail/whoever is mind-boggling. This requires massive amounts of paperwork and planning. All this costs contractors time and money. Which they (rightly, I think) claim back.
My humble opinion: the notion of spending a few quid and having a half decent British railway is a total non-starter. It is bollox. Fcuked up. Start from scratch and do it properly, or don't bother. And I reckon they could never do the former, because of the stupidly high land values in this country.
That turned into a marathon rant. Sorry.
Cheers, Phil
But it's still quite an eye-opener - the strategic planning side often makes local government look efficient!
BUT... If there has been a massive increase in costs, perhaps it is not the contractors taking a huge cut, but the original estimates were waaay too low. And of course that wouldn't have been politically motivated would it?
Imagine the government saying "we are going to make the railways great again, and it will only cost 250 billion..." Outcry perhaps? Would the public have thought "bugger that, lets just stick to using roads"?
But having spent the inadequate initial sum, they can blame everybody else, eg contractors, for spending all 'their' money without doing the work. Convenient.
That contractor would have tendered for that job, so should have been a fair price for the work listed at tender stage. If work is added or found necessary later, that is not the contractors fault. And of course he will get all the money/mileage he can out of it - it is business, not charity!
Also there should be people checking the work and subsequent payments - if the work wasn't done they wouldn't get payed. I imagine it would be the same people who originally prepared the contract - Railtrack (Network Rail now of course).
And everybody knows how well the concept and execution of Railtrack turned out
The increase in rule changes, working procedures and general red tape, even over the last 18 months, all coming from Railtrack/Network Rail/whoever is mind-boggling. This requires massive amounts of paperwork and planning. All this costs contractors time and money. Which they (rightly, I think) claim back.
My humble opinion: the notion of spending a few quid and having a half decent British railway is a total non-starter. It is bollox. Fcuked up. Start from scratch and do it properly, or don't bother. And I reckon they could never do the former, because of the stupidly high land values in this country.
That turned into a marathon rant. Sorry.
Cheers, Phil
CarZee said:Cost of flying is distorted by tax relief on aviation fuel.
Sorry, CZ, rail doesn't pay duty or tax on fuel either...
Also the cost of safety on the railway is ludicrous. After the various rail crashes in the last few years, the planned signalling upgrades will cost approx £72m per life saved.
Local authorities won't upgrade roads to save lives if it costs over £100k. So politically the government will spend 720 times the money on rail safety over road safety... why?
Edited for crap spelling
>> Edited by Size Nine Elm on Friday 31st January 09:29
hmm.. live and learn.. I can see how air travel is preferable on journeys over 100 miles or so, but for commuting in the south east, trains are simply essential.
Size Nine Elm said: Sorry, CZ, rail doesn't pay duty or tax on fuel either...
Ah yes.. not sure this figure is quite accurate but I know you're in the right ball park.. the £100k 'life-value' on the roads is true though..
Also the cost of safety on the railway is ludicrous. After the various rail crashes in the last few years, the planned signalling upgrades will cost approx £72m per life saved.
I'll tell you one thing.. chances are that if you find someone who's an expert in this subject and ask them some probing questions, they'll soon become exasperated and evasive. Not because the don't know what they're talking about or don't want to tell you, but because there simply are no answers to the intractable deadlock placed on our transport infrastructure due to 40 years of under-investment and chronic short-sightedness.
Billy Liar can't fix it and he's an idiot for giving the impression that he could. But now he has, I sincerely hope it'll contribute to his undoing. With Labour's unwillingness to significantly expand and improve the road network and the massive obstacles to fixing the railways, limitations on mobility will seriously impact economic growth & it'll happen soon.
We're doomed I tell yae.
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