GTM Libra few questions
Discussion
Hi all,
Haven't had a kit car for a year or two now, had a brief experience with a Westfield SE but it wasn't for me. Currently getting the Porsche thing out of my system and had almost sold myself on the replacement being an Elise.
However, a Libra is in the back of my mind. It shares the same power plant as the Elise, seems to be the same weight, ive read all the reviews about its performance 0-60 in 6 is quick enough, its more unique than the Elise (Ive never seen one in North Wales). Im not a fan of driving the same cars as everyone else on the road. I do have a few questions though:
1) Im guessing they are reliable. That powerplant is a good workhorse.
2) How low are they? Ive never seen one, nevermind sat in one.
3) Insurance. Its going to cost £700 - £800 to insure the Elise. I recall my Westfield insurance was like £200!
4) Any other advice anyone cares to share? Has anyone been in the similar Elise V Libra decision? What is the Libra like to live with day to day.
5) Storage? Is there a boot?. Not that there is one in the Elise.
Thanks for any help.
Haven't had a kit car for a year or two now, had a brief experience with a Westfield SE but it wasn't for me. Currently getting the Porsche thing out of my system and had almost sold myself on the replacement being an Elise.
However, a Libra is in the back of my mind. It shares the same power plant as the Elise, seems to be the same weight, ive read all the reviews about its performance 0-60 in 6 is quick enough, its more unique than the Elise (Ive never seen one in North Wales). Im not a fan of driving the same cars as everyone else on the road. I do have a few questions though:
1) Im guessing they are reliable. That powerplant is a good workhorse.
2) How low are they? Ive never seen one, nevermind sat in one.
3) Insurance. Its going to cost £700 - £800 to insure the Elise. I recall my Westfield insurance was like £200!
4) Any other advice anyone cares to share? Has anyone been in the similar Elise V Libra decision? What is the Libra like to live with day to day.
5) Storage? Is there a boot?. Not that there is one in the Elise.
Thanks for any help.
I've just bought one 
If you are serious about wanting to get one, start reading the build sites (I'm keeping a list here and I'll be adding to it all the time), join Team GTM and start reading the archives.
I love my car. In fact I'm writing a little thing stating how I consider it to be the perfect car for me. Mine does need a little work, but nothing that detracts from the pure driving pleasure that I get from it.
boRED S2upid said:
1) Im guessing they are reliable. That powerplant is a good workhorse.
The engine is a straight forward K Series and the other components are fairly solid as well. It will be as reliable as any other car, although mine has a few quirks that need fiddling with - thats what kit-cars are about though. boRED S2upid said:
2) How low are they? Ive never seen one, nevermind sat in one.
The front end of mine is higher than a Toyota Yaris. I have no troubles with speed bumps (no-one does). The front end can catch on things mind. As for sitting in one, I'm 6ft dead and weigh 16st. Some seats are too small for me, but the standard Metro GTI items are exceptionally comfortable. When inside the car you do look up on things, but it's not bad by any stretch of the imagination. boRED S2upid said:
3) Insurance. Its going to cost £700 - £800 to insure the Elise. I recall my Westfield insurance was like £200!
23, big claim on the insurance (fire which wrote my old car off), no NCB as a result of claim and I'm expecting to pay ~£700 fully comp come renewal. Thats fairly high by all accounts as well. boRED S2upid said:
4) Any other advice anyone cares to share? Has anyone been in the similar Elise V Libra decision? What is the Libra like to live with day to day.
The Libra is a much better package IMO. It has more space inside, a bigger boot, easier access to the mechanicals. It is however a kit-car so is dependent on the builder - some are fantastic whereas some are leaving a little to be desired. It's a similar deal to all cars though, you just go with a list of things to check and take a chance. boRED S2upid said:
5) Storage? Is there a boot?. Not that there is one in the Elise.
The boot isn't huge, but I went camping and got my: Tent, Sleeping Bag, Clothes, blow-up rollmat, seat, toolbag, cooker, food & cooking stuff (plates, pans etc) all in the boot. Then there is the shelf behind the seats where you can get a lot of stuff on and space under the front for smaller things which aren't accessed as much. If you are serious about wanting to get one, start reading the build sites (I'm keeping a list here and I'll be adding to it all the time), join Team GTM and start reading the archives.
I love my car. In fact I'm writing a little thing stating how I consider it to be the perfect car for me. Mine does need a little work, but nothing that detracts from the pure driving pleasure that I get from it.
1. Reliability is good on the GTM parts, so the rest is up to the donor stuff.
Overall, there doesn't seem to be any regular problems from the hardware.
2. Not as low as an Elise - but I haven't measured mine.
3. My insurance is about £300. Limited mileage, Old Fart living nr Oxford.
4. I had the same thoughts, but I wanted to build my car - so I've got a Libra. I did 300+ miles in mine last Sunday am. I went to the Rhyader Dams for a blast. No comfort problems at all. It's got proper doors, wind up windows etc. So it's a real car. Good visibility and good feel on the road.
5. There is a boot - wide enough for golf clubs! And there's plenty of storage space behind the seats.
www.drawmer.net/libra/librabuild.h
www.teamgtm.com
Ferg will be along soon.
Overall, there doesn't seem to be any regular problems from the hardware.
2. Not as low as an Elise - but I haven't measured mine.
3. My insurance is about £300. Limited mileage, Old Fart living nr Oxford.
4. I had the same thoughts, but I wanted to build my car - so I've got a Libra. I did 300+ miles in mine last Sunday am. I went to the Rhyader Dams for a blast. No comfort problems at all. It's got proper doors, wind up windows etc. So it's a real car. Good visibility and good feel on the road.
5. There is a boot - wide enough for golf clubs! And there's plenty of storage space behind the seats.
www.drawmer.net/libra/librabuild.h
www.teamgtm.com
Ferg will be along soon.
Thanks very much guys. Golf clubs! now im suprised by that. I was thinking the clubs would be sitting next to me!.
What kind of prices would I be looking at. Elise seems to be £8000 - £10000 for one of the older models especially if I bought one at the end of the summer. from what ive seen £10k should get me a nice example?
What kind of prices would I be looking at. Elise seems to be £8000 - £10000 for one of the older models especially if I bought one at the end of the summer. from what ive seen £10k should get me a nice example?
prices vary drastically, from cheap "need to sell it quick" 1.8's going for around £6-7k, nicer examples for £8-9k and recently a 2 year old, 1.8VVC with lots of trick bits went for £11.5k or so. There was also a brand new example for around £16k from Talon / TeamGTM...
Another example of reliability. I've had mine for 4 weeks now and have travelled well over 2000miles. This includes motorway mileage, the hardest passes in the Lakes twice, moorland driving, work and back (4miles each way or so), town and back (8miles each way or so)... A few things need fixing, but they were at fault when I got the car
Another example of reliability. I've had mine for 4 weeks now and have travelled well over 2000miles. This includes motorway mileage, the hardest passes in the Lakes twice, moorland driving, work and back (4miles each way or so), town and back (8miles each way or so)... A few things need fixing, but they were at fault when I got the car
Edited by docevi1 on Thursday 15th June 11:59
Hi,
As people have said, no real reliability problems.
I'm 6'2" and have plenty of room. (don't need to have the seat right back, enough headroom to wear my lid for trackdays etc)
Enough luggage space for two of us to go camping for the weekend.
Insurance about £350 fully comp.
There's a kitcar show at Newark this weekend, bound to be some Libras there if you wanted a proper look at one. (I'll be there saturday afternoon)
Paul
As people have said, no real reliability problems.
I'm 6'2" and have plenty of room. (don't need to have the seat right back, enough headroom to wear my lid for trackdays etc)
Enough luggage space for two of us to go camping for the weekend.
Insurance about £350 fully comp.
There's a kitcar show at Newark this weekend, bound to be some Libras there if you wanted a proper look at one. (I'll be there saturday afternoon)
Paul
Right, here goes with my 2ps worth. I have had a Libra for almost 3 year and done nearly 60K in it. Where about are you in N.Wales I am often up around the Caernarfon area… It is my only every day car and up until tonight, (just moved house) it has lived all it’s life outside.
1) Im guessing they are reliable. That power plant is a good workhorse.
As Peter or Paddy, from old GTM once told me. A kit car is as reliable as the parts you put on it these days. Put 10 year old parts on and you get 10 year old reliability, put new on and you get that.
But don’t forget there are more options than a K series 4 pot. The V6 is a real beast and sounds amazing! There are also quite a few cars out there with Honda units in, I think I might put one of these in eventually, 1.6 tweaked to 198bhp
2) How low are they? Ive never seen one, never mind sat in one.
You sit about 2” higher the body is about 3cm higher. The height in the car is very very dependant on the seat you have, I have lightweights in and sit about 2.5 inches lower than most seats.
The old style front is lower than the new style Spyder front, I have no problems really, only got stuck in a car park once then I just turned round and reversed out, figure that out!
3) Insurance. Its going to cost £700 - £800 to insure the Elise. I recall my Westfield insurance was like £200!
Will almost defiantly be lower, I am clean with full NCB, unlimited mileage and it’s only £360
4) Any other advice anyone cares to share? Has anyone been in the similar Elise V Libra decision? What is the Libra like to live with day to day.
Libra is great, it is not a production car so don’t expect exacting fit and finish but you can expect to get the looks at petrol stations even when a Ferrari is on the same forecourt. Great fund to drive, even in snow!
5) Storage? Is there a boot?. Not that there is one in the Elise.
Loads and Loads, you will not find another car in the class with more space, I have on several occasions gone camping in it for a week and still had space in it The space behind the seats is particularly useful,(depending on which seats you get.
If I was going to get one now it would be an Orange V6 : ) no doubt.
Bron
1) Im guessing they are reliable. That power plant is a good workhorse.
As Peter or Paddy, from old GTM once told me. A kit car is as reliable as the parts you put on it these days. Put 10 year old parts on and you get 10 year old reliability, put new on and you get that.
But don’t forget there are more options than a K series 4 pot. The V6 is a real beast and sounds amazing! There are also quite a few cars out there with Honda units in, I think I might put one of these in eventually, 1.6 tweaked to 198bhp
2) How low are they? Ive never seen one, never mind sat in one.
You sit about 2” higher the body is about 3cm higher. The height in the car is very very dependant on the seat you have, I have lightweights in and sit about 2.5 inches lower than most seats.
The old style front is lower than the new style Spyder front, I have no problems really, only got stuck in a car park once then I just turned round and reversed out, figure that out!
3) Insurance. Its going to cost £700 - £800 to insure the Elise. I recall my Westfield insurance was like £200!
Will almost defiantly be lower, I am clean with full NCB, unlimited mileage and it’s only £360
4) Any other advice anyone cares to share? Has anyone been in the similar Elise V Libra decision? What is the Libra like to live with day to day.
Libra is great, it is not a production car so don’t expect exacting fit and finish but you can expect to get the looks at petrol stations even when a Ferrari is on the same forecourt. Great fund to drive, even in snow!
5) Storage? Is there a boot?. Not that there is one in the Elise.
Loads and Loads, you will not find another car in the class with more space, I have on several occasions gone camping in it for a week and still had space in it
The space behind the seats is particularly useful,(depending on which seats you get. If I was going to get one now it would be an Orange V6 : ) no doubt.
Bron
Think im going to have to get along to a KitCar show sometime in the summer to take a look at one of these in the flesh. Im the wrong end of North Wales to Caernarfon im in Wrexham NE Wales. I do go down to South Wales a lot.
Where are you based Paul?
So I should be able to get one of the better examples for the same price as an Elise. Seems to tick more boxes for me than the Elise does. And as with the Elise engine mods and upgrades seem endless.
Where are you based Paul?
So I should be able to get one of the better examples for the same price as an Elise. Seems to tick more boxes for me than the Elise does. And as with the Elise engine mods and upgrades seem endless.
boRED S2upid said:
So ive heard of Elises with 200bhp Honda Engine conversions.
So this could be done with a Libra? Has it been done?
there is a Dutch gent who is putting a turbo'd Audi engine in the back. There are also numerous Honda engined cars in existence. The Libra is designed to take a K-Series mind so a bit of fabrication is needed to get the subframe to fit. So this could be done with a Libra? Has it been done?
The Libra engine bay is much bigger than the SPyder mind due to the lack of strengthening stuff
I sold mine after two years, was good fun and is as reliable as the builder generally.
If you buy one there are two things I would highly recommend you take into account:
sorting the GTM wiring harness: mine suffered from poor crimps that corroded in the engine bay, most have open connectors to the clam shell electrics which fail over time giving intermittent faults
fit the new style suspension, those old ball joints on the original style fail after a big spread of miles, anywhere from 6,000 up to about 30,000
Cheap to insure, different, practical, the only major problem is resale values are dropping alongside the Elise so I wouldn't build another one, secondhand is the way to go. For the money you are bound to get a better Libra which will cost a lot less to run..
Rich
If you buy one there are two things I would highly recommend you take into account:
sorting the GTM wiring harness: mine suffered from poor crimps that corroded in the engine bay, most have open connectors to the clam shell electrics which fail over time giving intermittent faults
fit the new style suspension, those old ball joints on the original style fail after a big spread of miles, anywhere from 6,000 up to about 30,000
Cheap to insure, different, practical, the only major problem is resale values are dropping alongside the Elise so I wouldn't build another one, secondhand is the way to go. For the money you are bound to get a better Libra which will cost a lot less to run..
Rich
You can get some idea of the storage available behind the seats from one of the photos here: www.pistonheads.com/roadtests/doc.asp?c=112&i=3202
Regarding the 200bhp Honda engine, yes it can be done. In fact totalkitcar editor Steve Hole has a GTM Spyder with a 1600cc Honda VTEC producing 195bhp as featured in the latest issue. Check out your local WH Smiths or see www.totalkitcar.com
Regarding the 200bhp Honda engine, yes it can be done. In fact totalkitcar editor Steve Hole has a GTM Spyder with a 1600cc Honda VTEC producing 195bhp as featured in the latest issue. Check out your local WH Smiths or see www.totalkitcar.com
ferg said:
Two things.
Rich mentions the ball joints 'failing'. Mine aren't even noisy yet and I can't recall any actually failing (not if originally fitted correctly).....??
I chose Libra over Elise. I was a GTM owner already though, but it's the exclusivity don't you know!!
Rich mentions the ball joints 'failing'. Mine aren't even noisy yet and I can't recall any actually failing (not if originally fitted correctly).....??
I chose Libra over Elise. I was a GTM owner already though, but it's the exclusivity don't you know!!
Hmm, at least one car has failed, collapsing the rear end. If you are buying a second hand one you don't know so still one to look out for. Even if they don't fail completely, when they wear the rattling is bloody noisy and annoying! There's always the long awaited Team GTM 'fix' of replacing the lower ball joints with custom spherical joints, not sure if much progress is being made on that one, it gets a mention every now and then on the forum..
Rich
docevi1 said:
boRED S2upid said:
So ive heard of Elises with 200bhp Honda Engine conversions.
So this could be done with a Libra? Has it been done?
So this could be done with a Libra? Has it been done?
there is a Dutch gent who is putting a turbo'd Audi engine in the back.
The Libra engine bay is much bigger than the SPyder mind due to the lack of strengthening stuff
Somebody called ???
Yes, that would be me then. Fitting an Audi 1.8 20 VT is maybe something you do not want to do as a first kit car build project. A car of this spec will not be available second hand yet. My engine has 225 Hp standard, and is tuned to something in the region of 260 Hp. This conversion cannot be done on a Spyder. I used a V6 body which has a larger engine bay. Pictures and details of my build can be found on my website (in Dutch, sorry!) at www.gtmlibra.nl You will even find a movie of the very first attempt to start the engine at www.gtmlibra.nl/libra-start.mpg (6.5 Mb)
Bye,
Bertram
www.gtmlibra.nl
Edited by Bertram on Thursday 15th June 20:36
Edited by Bertram on Thursday 15th June 20:37
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