Which Advanced Drivers Do This?
Discussion
I am a 23 year member of the IAM and consider much of what they teach, particulary on observation to be important. However there are two things that don't make sense to me. The first is the insistance on passing the wheel, which I can see no benefit to and it could even be argued to be a dangerously ponderous. The second is the emphasis on speed, but this has probably got more to do with their being a charity than a safety issue. But passing the wheel, what's that all about?
wmg100 said:
But passing the wheel, what's that all about?
I assume you've asked them, what did they say?
I can think of several possible reasons:
* It keeps your arms away from the airbag.
* It makes it difficult to turn the wheel quickly which encourages you to plan your steering earlier and steer more smoothly.
* It provides more positive control than palming the wheel, and provides more lock than steering with a fixed grip.
* It keeps your hands in the right position to make very sudden steering changes in either direction if necessary.
I don't know if any of these are the reason for the advice, but the last point is probably the most important imo.
wmg100 said:
I could never get a straight answer. as for making sudden steering motions, that's more about instinct than anything alse, besides which, when crossing your hands the other hand is in a as good a position to get opposite lock than if they are straight.
Yes I agree on both counts. If you were cornering with your arms crossed and suddenly found you needed a lot more lock, it might be harder to apply it. If you need sudden steering input you get the wheel round any way you can - but if you are starting with your hands in a neutral position it's going to be easier to do.
I also agree that with crossed arms it's easier to apply large amounts of opposite lock, and as far as I'm concerned that's a good reason to do this in a powerful rwd car in slipper conditions as long as you also have the capacity to apply more lock if necessary i.e. don't hang on to a fixed wheel grip if you are running out of travel unless you're absolutely sure that nothing can happen to require more lock. In tight corners I'll shuffle steer the first part to make sure I don't run out of elbows and then use a fixed grip for the remainder so I can get the best part of a turn of opposite lock on faster than I can think about it. None of this would apply in a conventional fwd production car though where it is extremely unlikely that you will suddenly require lots of opposite lock.
wmg100 said:
I am a 23 year member of the IAM and consider much of what they teach, particulary on observation to be important. However there are two things that don't make sense to me. The first is the insistance on passing the wheel, which I can see no benefit to and it could even be argued to be a dangerously ponderous. The second is the emphasis on speed, but this has probably got more to do with their being a charity than a safety issue. But passing the wheel, what's that all about?
It won't be the preferred method of all "Advanced" drivers. Best thing is to be competent in a wide variety of methods, so that you can call on the most appropriate for the circumstances.
Pull push just happens to be the preferred steering method of the organisation to which you belong, as I imagine it best suits their needs, aims & objectives. They set their own syllabus & test to that syllabus.
Other organisations may have other priorities, aims & objectives, that lead them to different conclusions.
Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 22 June 00:39
7db said:
wmg100 said:
The second is the emphasis on speed, but this has probably got more to do with their being a charity than a safety issue.
Things are looking up - are IAM encouraging more speed these days?
I didn't know quite how to read what wmg said there.
Is it a case of the IAM insisting on limiting the speed, i.e. speed limit compliance, or encouraging more speed (but safely and within the speed limit) in the interests of making good progress?
Best wishes all,
Dave.
GreenV8S said:
wmg100 said:
But passing the wheel, what's that all about?
I assume you've asked them, what did they say?
I can think of several possible reasons:
* It keeps your arms away from the airbag.
10 Pence Short said:
A retired Police instuctor on Durham's skidpan didn't preach that one way was better than another; simply that he'd seen some nasty finger injuries on people who crossed arms when violent wheel movements caught them out and tw*tted their fingers against the wheel spokes.
having caught my thumbs in the skidpan one time too many, I use mostly fixed input but with thumbs vertical on the wheel rim. You obviously have to be flexible in town driving as fixed input isn't going to get you round most street corners.wmg100 said:
Sorry, I meant the empahasis on sticking to the speed limit. Making good progress, particulary through busy traffic is one the best tricks of advanced driving. Think how many hours we must have saved by using the lane of least resistance, I love it.
Thank you for that clarification Bill, and by the way, welcome to PH.
Lane of least resistance? Oh dear, I know jolly well I don't always make the best choice there, but there are worse sins. For my own purposes I don't see it as a major problem. I tend to make my best progress in the wide open spaces
rather than get involved with pushing and shoving (to put it crudely) in built up areas. Best wishes all,
Dave.
This is just a general observations, but if you have achieved an "advanced" level of skill in any area, you would also have the necessary depth and breadth of understanding to know exactly why things are done in a certain way, and also why rules are written in the way they are. Which leads to the next phase: learning to recognise when and how methods and rules can be bypassed and alternatives used instead.
Pull-push steering is just a steering technique that seems to be strongly promoted in the UK, but almost no-where else in the world. It is also a technique that is strongly promoted by a limited set of people: namely motoring organisation that derive their standards from Roadcraft, or are influence by it.
Hand-over-hand (aka. "rotational steering"
is an alternative technique that is recognised in many countries as a legitimate steering technique, provided that:
* Palms are no positioned on the inside rim of the steering wheel.
* Thumbs are not wrapped around the inside rim of the steering wheel.
* The steering wheel is not manipulated using only one hand unnecessarily.
* The steering wheel is not completely released unnecessarily.
Some of the reasons touted as advantages of the pull-push technique are entirely subjective and have no significant scientific basis:
* Smooth steering input? (Subjective)
* Feels natural? (Subjective)
* Driver always knows where the wheels are pointing? (Often false)
* The hands are always in a position to apply steering in either direction? (Not a unique advantage)
The only scientifically supportable advantage of pull-push, is that it minimises the risk of airbag-related injury by positioning the arms away from the deployment zone as much as possible. However, this is often made irrelevant by the fact that Roadcraft, as well as many advanced drivers in the UK, promote the use of fixed-grip or hand-over-hand steering when taking corrective action as a response to loss of traction.
Hand-over-hand, like pull-push, is quite efficient and clean, producing consistent results. The downside is that it is easy to become lazy with it, especially as many drivers consider it to be "natural", they don't really consider how they are manipulating the wheel. Palms on the inside rim, chicken-wing effect while hands are changing, thumbs on the inside rim, sloppy positioning, etc., are common errors. Also, it is not a technique that one can be very good at without considerable practice and some natural talent (same statement could be made about pull-push).
What Vonhosen said really hits the button. Get proficient in a variety of techniques, and pick the right ones for the conditions. Pull-push is a good general-purpose method of steering, and there is no harm in learning it.
I feel some flame-tipped comments heading my way.
Pull-push steering is just a steering technique that seems to be strongly promoted in the UK, but almost no-where else in the world. It is also a technique that is strongly promoted by a limited set of people: namely motoring organisation that derive their standards from Roadcraft, or are influence by it.
Hand-over-hand (aka. "rotational steering"
is an alternative technique that is recognised in many countries as a legitimate steering technique, provided that: * Palms are no positioned on the inside rim of the steering wheel.
* Thumbs are not wrapped around the inside rim of the steering wheel.
* The steering wheel is not manipulated using only one hand unnecessarily.
* The steering wheel is not completely released unnecessarily.
Some of the reasons touted as advantages of the pull-push technique are entirely subjective and have no significant scientific basis:
* Smooth steering input? (Subjective)
* Feels natural? (Subjective)
* Driver always knows where the wheels are pointing? (Often false)
* The hands are always in a position to apply steering in either direction? (Not a unique advantage)
The only scientifically supportable advantage of pull-push, is that it minimises the risk of airbag-related injury by positioning the arms away from the deployment zone as much as possible. However, this is often made irrelevant by the fact that Roadcraft, as well as many advanced drivers in the UK, promote the use of fixed-grip or hand-over-hand steering when taking corrective action as a response to loss of traction.
Hand-over-hand, like pull-push, is quite efficient and clean, producing consistent results. The downside is that it is easy to become lazy with it, especially as many drivers consider it to be "natural", they don't really consider how they are manipulating the wheel. Palms on the inside rim, chicken-wing effect while hands are changing, thumbs on the inside rim, sloppy positioning, etc., are common errors. Also, it is not a technique that one can be very good at without considerable practice and some natural talent (same statement could be made about pull-push).
What Vonhosen said really hits the button. Get proficient in a variety of techniques, and pick the right ones for the conditions. Pull-push is a good general-purpose method of steering, and there is no harm in learning it.
I feel some flame-tipped comments heading my way.
With all due respect I do think some people get too fixated on what they insist are 'correct' steering techniques. I do whatever feels natural and appropriate in the circumstances and this reveals quite a wide variety of hand movements and grips etc., some of them quite odd it may be thought.
Ultimately all that matters, I would suggest, is that we should each evolve a set of reliable techniques that suit us and are appropriate to the immediate need. By all means start by trying all the recommended versions and see how you get on, and then take it from there.
Just as a matter of interest, when did anybody ever hear of a driver having a shunt or a problem of any kind that could truly be attributed to not handling the steering wheel correctly? Not for a very long time, would be my guess. If I'm mistaken, by all means please tell me.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Ultimately all that matters, I would suggest, is that we should each evolve a set of reliable techniques that suit us and are appropriate to the immediate need. By all means start by trying all the recommended versions and see how you get on, and then take it from there.
Just as a matter of interest, when did anybody ever hear of a driver having a shunt or a problem of any kind that could truly be attributed to not handling the steering wheel correctly? Not for a very long time, would be my guess. If I'm mistaken, by all means please tell me.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
One thing that the examiner did strees to me with regards the steering wheel was that he had attended a number of accidents where leather stitching on the wheel had badly injured people thumbs where they had been wrapped aroung the wheel. I think that a lot of sense has been said here, in that being able to master both techniques is a good thing. However fo me crossing my arms is a more natural motion which I feel gives me better and smoother control of my car.
I use a mixture of pull push, rotational and fixed input. Often i grab a handfull for a sharp bend then use fixed input so i'm at 10 2 2 ish while negotiating the bend so i can alter input if needed. When taking students i am not too fussed as long as they are not steering by the palm on the rim. If they are in control i am happy. I cant see any problem crossing hands whilst doing slow speed manoeuvres. I do think that people tend to get too fixated with rules.
Rick448 said:
I use a mixture of pull push, rotational and fixed input. Often i grab a handfull for a sharp bend then use fixed input so i'm at 10 2 2 ish while negotiating the bend so i can alter input if needed. When taking students i am not too fussed as long as they are not steering by the palm on the rim. If they are in control i am happy. I cant see any problem crossing hands whilst doing slow speed manoeuvres. I do think that people tend to get too fixated with rules.
Oh that's a funny thing. I've recently started thinking a bit more about how I steer, and one of the things I've realised I do is palm the wheel as I straighten up after a very tight corner taken at low speed. Is that OK Rick?
In many cases we do things automatically without realising quite how we do them....like....which leg do you put first into your trousers in a morning?
I'll bet you don't know! Best wishes all,
Dave.
TripleS said:
Rick448 said:
I use a mixture of pull push, rotational and fixed input. Often i grab a handfull for a sharp bend then use fixed input so i'm at 10 2 2 ish while negotiating the bend so i can alter input if needed. When taking students i am not too fussed as long as they are not steering by the palm on the rim. If they are in control i am happy. I cant see any problem crossing hands whilst doing slow speed manoeuvres. I do think that people tend to get too fixated with rules.
Oh that's a funny thing. I've recently started thinking a bit more about how I steer, and one of the things I've realised I do is palm the wheel as I straighten up after a very tight corner taken at low speed. Is that OK Rick?
In many cases we do things automatically without realising quite how we do them....like....which leg do you put first into your trousers in a morning?
I'll bet you don't know! Best wishes all,
Dave.
You can do whatever pleases you Dave, as i'm sure you do
I'm was speaking for what i will accept with my students. If i allowed that then they'd be steering with knees whilst rolling a ciggie! You know how it is i'm sure! I personally never palm the wheel at all and have never found a reason to. But each to their own i guess. I find a big handfull ala rotational will get lock off sufficiently. vonhosen said:
TripleS said:
In many cases we do things automatically without realising quite how we do them....like....which leg do you put first into your trousers in a morning?
I'll bet you don't know! Best wishes all,
Dave.
Right leg
Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 22 June 20:47
Did you already know that or have you just done a quick check Von?
Best wishes all,
Dave.
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