Which 355 - are these prices reasonable ?
Discussion
Hi All... my search for a 355 still continues...seen a few within an hour of London over the last couple of months.. no joy yet.. I currently have details of 3 cars:
Car 1: 1995 F355 Berlinetta, Red, black leather, 45000 miles, sports exhaust, asking price: £38000 (private sale)
Car 2: 1995 F355 Berlinetta, Red, black leather, 40000 miles, sports exhaust, asking price: £38500
(private sale)
Car 3: 1995 F355 Berlinetta, Red, Cream leather, 36000 miles, STANDARD exhaust, asking price: £39000
(Car 3 has had only 2 owners - dealer car / trade sale)
They are all RHD, all have full service history and only Car 2 needs an annual service. the other 2 have been serviced recently. No known issues with any car, i've been told. now my questions are:
1) Are these prices reasonable ? What should I be paying ?
2) Is 45000 miles a reason to worry about ? regarding reliability / maintenance and re-sale value ?
3) None of these cars have had the manifolds crack (well not that the current owners know of .. as I've been told)... When do the manifolds go on these ?.. at what mileage ? When I go and see these cars this weekend... how do I know if the manifold is cracked ? what am I supposed to be looking / listening for ?
With these mileages... I don't have to worry about the valve guide problem, do I ? What are the tell tale signs of this ?
I am hoping to make time this weekend and see all three... they are dotted all over the country.. so I have a lot of driving to do.. I am hoping with your help I can go and make an informed decision as to whether to make an offer or not.. and what kind of money to offer...?
Your thoughts / comments / tips much appreciated.... can't wait to find the right one.. and join the club !
Thanks.
Car 1: 1995 F355 Berlinetta, Red, black leather, 45000 miles, sports exhaust, asking price: £38000 (private sale)
Car 2: 1995 F355 Berlinetta, Red, black leather, 40000 miles, sports exhaust, asking price: £38500
(private sale)
Car 3: 1995 F355 Berlinetta, Red, Cream leather, 36000 miles, STANDARD exhaust, asking price: £39000
(Car 3 has had only 2 owners - dealer car / trade sale)
They are all RHD, all have full service history and only Car 2 needs an annual service. the other 2 have been serviced recently. No known issues with any car, i've been told. now my questions are:
1) Are these prices reasonable ? What should I be paying ?
2) Is 45000 miles a reason to worry about ? regarding reliability / maintenance and re-sale value ?
3) None of these cars have had the manifolds crack (well not that the current owners know of .. as I've been told)... When do the manifolds go on these ?.. at what mileage ? When I go and see these cars this weekend... how do I know if the manifold is cracked ? what am I supposed to be looking / listening for ?
With these mileages... I don't have to worry about the valve guide problem, do I ? What are the tell tale signs of this ?
I am hoping to make time this weekend and see all three... they are dotted all over the country.. so I have a lot of driving to do.. I am hoping with your help I can go and make an informed decision as to whether to make an offer or not.. and what kind of money to offer...?
Your thoughts / comments / tips much appreciated.... can't wait to find the right one.. and join the club !
Thanks.
Sadly the miles on the top two at least will count against at next resale, though the cars can take the miles (my '99 car currently has 37k on the clock).
But I'd say the prices aren't too bad as long as the cars are in good nick.
Have a good poke round all three and get a drive in them. It'll be obvious if any of them have been poorly looked after as they get shabby quickly if you don't keep on top of them.
Sports exhaust is about 1600-2000 quid or so fitted (so you can benchmark the last one price wise). And if the other two have a Tubi or Capristo, you WILL need (not as simple as want!!) this on the last car if you go for it. The last car will also sound rubbish in comparison.
If they all feel the same in terms of tightness, and look comparable cosmetically and have air tight histories, I'd be inclined to go with the one that has done the most miles recently. Cars that are used frequently are often less trouble than garage queens.
I've not yet seen *any* straight RHD GTB go for less than 36k, and have only seen one at that money. Prices will inevitably keep slithering down, but I honestly think the 355 will hold its value well over the next few years.
But I'd say the prices aren't too bad as long as the cars are in good nick.
Have a good poke round all three and get a drive in them. It'll be obvious if any of them have been poorly looked after as they get shabby quickly if you don't keep on top of them.
Sports exhaust is about 1600-2000 quid or so fitted (so you can benchmark the last one price wise). And if the other two have a Tubi or Capristo, you WILL need (not as simple as want!!) this on the last car if you go for it. The last car will also sound rubbish in comparison.
If they all feel the same in terms of tightness, and look comparable cosmetically and have air tight histories, I'd be inclined to go with the one that has done the most miles recently. Cars that are used frequently are often less trouble than garage queens.
I've not yet seen *any* straight RHD GTB go for less than 36k, and have only seen one at that money. Prices will inevitably keep slithering down, but I honestly think the 355 will hold its value well over the next few years.
More specifically:
1) I think they're about right. You'll probably get a bit off these depending on how badly they want rid...but they're ball park IMO.
2) No in terms of reliability. Probably in terms of miles. But you won't be wanting to sell it...
3) My car hasn't had these done yet either. Some are more susceptible than others, but they allegedly all go eventually. I believe it sounds like a blown/whispering exhaust and you can hear it more if you stick your head in the engine bay nearer the manifold. But with the heat shields this is by no means fool proof.
You can get manifolds repaired by QV (I think - about 1k a side). I also believe some guys Stateside have developed some alternatives which'd work out around 2k for a pair, but are likely to last longer (and look better).
Valve guides - I would expect these cars to have either been fixed or unlikely to suffer. I believe a compression check would start to show if there are issues. Biggest piece of advice is to get ANY of the cars independently inspected by a specialist, and get that specialist to specifically check manifolds and valve guides for you...
There's a buyer's guide on www.fcars.co.uk/. Have a good look round, keep asking questions and do not rush. Great cars, but there are a few around and buying the best one you can will pay dividends.
1) I think they're about right. You'll probably get a bit off these depending on how badly they want rid...but they're ball park IMO.
2) No in terms of reliability. Probably in terms of miles. But you won't be wanting to sell it...
3) My car hasn't had these done yet either. Some are more susceptible than others, but they allegedly all go eventually. I believe it sounds like a blown/whispering exhaust and you can hear it more if you stick your head in the engine bay nearer the manifold. But with the heat shields this is by no means fool proof.
You can get manifolds repaired by QV (I think - about 1k a side). I also believe some guys Stateside have developed some alternatives which'd work out around 2k for a pair, but are likely to last longer (and look better).
Valve guides - I would expect these cars to have either been fixed or unlikely to suffer. I believe a compression check would start to show if there are issues. Biggest piece of advice is to get ANY of the cars independently inspected by a specialist, and get that specialist to specifically check manifolds and valve guides for you...
There's a buyer's guide on www.fcars.co.uk/. Have a good look round, keep asking questions and do not rush. Great cars, but there are a few around and buying the best one you can will pay dividends.
First off they're not cheap, especially considering two are private sales.
With regards to the manifolds they make a tapping sort of sound, but that could also just be the line to the manifold. IIRC can happen at any mileage, even if they've been changed. Eitherway, I would advise that you DO NOT BUY without having it inspected IN ANY CASE. Any one of the Ferrari dealerships will do it for you, at £250 odd quid. Verdi is also just as good, if not better, than many of the official dealers. I would even check out an independent dealers car using Verdi/Official dealer.
Just for your info, my neighbour sold his car 99T reg F1 with 3k miles (genuine) yellow GTS, for £42K. So if you're buying privately, aim for around £35k at most. Just my opinion.
I think the car would handle 45k miles without a problem, in fact mine was getting even better at 27k odd miles. But do get it checked as it may not be running full power though. And you may have problems resale if you put much on it.
WRT the sports exhaust, check it has the cats in, and if not, that they are at least available to reinstall if you want. If they don't have them, discount the price to take it into consideration. You might need them later, and they're not cheap.
Extensively check out the service history. I'd personally say go for a newer 355, post 96.
Good luck and I'm sure if you find a good one, you will love it.
With regards to the manifolds they make a tapping sort of sound, but that could also just be the line to the manifold. IIRC can happen at any mileage, even if they've been changed. Eitherway, I would advise that you DO NOT BUY without having it inspected IN ANY CASE. Any one of the Ferrari dealerships will do it for you, at £250 odd quid. Verdi is also just as good, if not better, than many of the official dealers. I would even check out an independent dealers car using Verdi/Official dealer.
Just for your info, my neighbour sold his car 99T reg F1 with 3k miles (genuine) yellow GTS, for £42K. So if you're buying privately, aim for around £35k at most. Just my opinion.
I think the car would handle 45k miles without a problem, in fact mine was getting even better at 27k odd miles. But do get it checked as it may not be running full power though. And you may have problems resale if you put much on it.
WRT the sports exhaust, check it has the cats in, and if not, that they are at least available to reinstall if you want. If they don't have them, discount the price to take it into consideration. You might need them later, and they're not cheap.
Extensively check out the service history. I'd personally say go for a newer 355, post 96.
Good luck and I'm sure if you find a good one, you will love it.
you people are stars !
I post the message late last night and within an hour I have all the ammo I need.... thanks for your advice... I think I'll have time to see only one (or maybe 2) this weekend... trying to figure out which one to see first... am wondering if it is wise to wait a few months until end of summer.. maybe then some post 96 cars may come up for sale..? (I don't mind LHD cars).. and I did originally have a budget of around 35K.... this search is harder than I thought
thanks again.. and any further tips are much appreciated....
I post the message late last night and within an hour I have all the ammo I need.... thanks for your advice... I think I'll have time to see only one (or maybe 2) this weekend... trying to figure out which one to see first... am wondering if it is wise to wait a few months until end of summer.. maybe then some post 96 cars may come up for sale..? (I don't mind LHD cars).. and I did originally have a budget of around 35K.... this search is harder than I thought
thanks again.. and any further tips are much appreciated....
Condition is everything. So make sure you buy on that alone (and history's one indicator).
Does the dealer have other cars in stock? If so, they'd be my first port of call.
i) you'll not get swayed by the sound of the exhaust.
ii) if they have a selection of 355s around (and by this I mean a couple, as nowhere will have dozens!), you'll be able to see what your money buys, and/or what spending a few extra k could get you...
Due respect to ninja, but I wouldn't worry about the cats. Get friendly with an indie (and with cars at this stage of their life that is 100% the way to go in my book, unless you have shares in Vaseline) and it's easy enough to work around. It's also one less thing to go wrong, makes the car lighter and sound better (non-OEM ones are around 800 quid I think).
Also on prices, there are 57 F355 GTBs (incl LHD) on Autotrader at present - the cheapest RHD car is 36.5k. And it's green (quite possibly the worst colour for a 355 in all respects!). The next cheapest is 41k and has a somewhat "choice" interior decor. Though if you like both...
Pistonheads has 46 cars (incl LHD) and the cheapest RHD car is 44.5k (a red one, so nothing dodgy there!).
There are 7 RHD GTBs on the FOC site. Cheapest is yellow at 38k. There's a nice gunmetal one at 43k too (but note that red is safest at resale time).
When selling these sorts of car, it pays not to be in a rush. Occasionally people are, and bargains crop up. But I think this happens rarely...
I suspect there are probably only 40 or so RHDs for sale at the moment. Sounds like quite a few, but there'll be some interesting colour combos, some hounds and quite a lot well over the 42k mark.
Summer is also definitely the "wrong" time to buy.
Definitely check out fcars.co.uk. They can, at times, come across as a bit unwelcoming. But they're a knowledgable bunch and will help genuine enquiries (there's been plenty of trolling and stupidity of late!).
If you're London based, you can have a look round my car too if you like.
Does the dealer have other cars in stock? If so, they'd be my first port of call.
i) you'll not get swayed by the sound of the exhaust.
ii) if they have a selection of 355s around (and by this I mean a couple, as nowhere will have dozens!), you'll be able to see what your money buys, and/or what spending a few extra k could get you...
Due respect to ninja, but I wouldn't worry about the cats. Get friendly with an indie (and with cars at this stage of their life that is 100% the way to go in my book, unless you have shares in Vaseline) and it's easy enough to work around. It's also one less thing to go wrong, makes the car lighter and sound better (non-OEM ones are around 800 quid I think).
Also on prices, there are 57 F355 GTBs (incl LHD) on Autotrader at present - the cheapest RHD car is 36.5k. And it's green (quite possibly the worst colour for a 355 in all respects!). The next cheapest is 41k and has a somewhat "choice" interior decor. Though if you like both...
Pistonheads has 46 cars (incl LHD) and the cheapest RHD car is 44.5k (a red one, so nothing dodgy there!).
There are 7 RHD GTBs on the FOC site. Cheapest is yellow at 38k. There's a nice gunmetal one at 43k too (but note that red is safest at resale time).
When selling these sorts of car, it pays not to be in a rush. Occasionally people are, and bargains crop up. But I think this happens rarely...
I suspect there are probably only 40 or so RHDs for sale at the moment. Sounds like quite a few, but there'll be some interesting colour combos, some hounds and quite a lot well over the 42k mark.
Summer is also definitely the "wrong" time to buy.
Definitely check out fcars.co.uk. They can, at times, come across as a bit unwelcoming. But they're a knowledgable bunch and will help genuine enquiries (there's been plenty of trolling and stupidity of late!).
If you're London based, you can have a look round my car too if you like.
murph7355 said:
Definitely check out fcars.co.uk.... (there's been plenty of trolling and stupidity of late!).
I cannot believe this for one minute, you must be mistaken
Seriously though, tell 'em we sent you and you should get a lot of good help and, they may even know the cars concerned
You should also check the buttresses on a Berlinetta or GTS. They WILL have cracked at some time, so it's worth checking when they were last done.
Now my favourite bug-bear, the "Full Service History", I've never seen a 355 advertised that doesn't have "FSH", but I guarantee that the majority don't have it! By that I mean that the car should have been serviced EVERY birthday, and should have had the 6750 and 18750 miles services carried out according to factory spec, these are bigger services than just a routine annual inspection! It should also have had the cam-belts changed by removing the engine every 3 years! Anthing else DOES NOT HAVE FULL SERVICE HISTORY! And should be discounted accordingly! You'll now get loads of people telling you that it's perfectly ok to do a cam-belt change by removing the petrol tank.....well not according to the factory!There are numerous things that cannot be inspected with the engine in-situ, most importantly the fuel line couplings!
The biggest issue will always be accident damage, so look VERY closely!An independent inspection is always a good idea.Don't worry about the front end having been repainted, THEY ALL HAVE!But do worry if the repair hasn't been done well, or is more extensive than just the bumper and nose!
Please remember that there are lots of very average cars out there, so it pays to look closely and be prepared to travel to find the car that's right for you!
Good luck, and as lots have said already, there's a wealth of info on the f cars site!
Now my favourite bug-bear, the "Full Service History", I've never seen a 355 advertised that doesn't have "FSH", but I guarantee that the majority don't have it! By that I mean that the car should have been serviced EVERY birthday, and should have had the 6750 and 18750 miles services carried out according to factory spec, these are bigger services than just a routine annual inspection! It should also have had the cam-belts changed by removing the engine every 3 years! Anthing else DOES NOT HAVE FULL SERVICE HISTORY! And should be discounted accordingly! You'll now get loads of people telling you that it's perfectly ok to do a cam-belt change by removing the petrol tank.....well not according to the factory!There are numerous things that cannot be inspected with the engine in-situ, most importantly the fuel line couplings!
The biggest issue will always be accident damage, so look VERY closely!An independent inspection is always a good idea.Don't worry about the front end having been repainted, THEY ALL HAVE!But do worry if the repair hasn't been done well, or is more extensive than just the bumper and nose!
Please remember that there are lots of very average cars out there, so it pays to look closely and be prepared to travel to find the car that's right for you!
Good luck, and as lots have said already, there's a wealth of info on the f cars site!
spidermanUK said:
...You'll now get loads of people telling you that it's perfectly ok to do a cam-belt change by removing the petrol tank.....well not according to the factory!There are numerous things that cannot be inspected with the engine in-situ, most importantly the fuel line couplings!...
Perhaps just the one.
With respect, this is the biggest pile of cock (have you actually seen a service done both ways?), and pretty typical of (a) the sort of shite the "factory" (UK dealers) spout regularly in order to (b) justify exhorbitant pricing for services. It also contributes to a lot of people running a mile from these cars rather than embracing them!
I have seen, with my own eyes (20:20 vision by the way) a cam belt change done with engine in situ.
I'm 6'4" and at the time was a trim 18st. The guy doing the job was as big as me and the pair of us stood under the car and in the space available while the job was done.
I guarantee 100% that everything that needed checking could be checked perfectly well using this method (tell me one part that cannot be done this way...).
A couple of specific points:
1) You actually "disturb" less of the car this way.
My car was subject to a wiring loom short circuit and near on fire 6mths after I bought it (smoke out of the engine bay - luckily the engine cut and the car shut down before a proper fire started). At this point it had *always* been in the factory dealer network and serviced as they saw fit.
Unfortunately, in removing the engine to do the belt change the YTS boy they had doing it at 100 quid +VAT an hour failed to notice that the grommets that protect the loom (which, engine out, gets disturbed in the process) were not in place properly. The loom chafed on the metal bulkhead and I very nearly had a near death experience ("fortunately" I simply had to argue the toss to get the dealer/Ferrari to pick up the tab via the Power warranty. In the end they picked up 66% of the cost. Gee, thanks).
2) The fuel lines you note can be an issue on 355s granted. However, the place they go (typcially) as I understand it are the couplings on *top* of the engine. The nuts are ali and if overtightened they can crack. You can check them (with a bit of dexterity) with the engine in. Furthermore, you don't need to keep undoing them if you drop the fuel tank, which should prevent any issues...
It's obviously up to owners what they believe and what they do with their cars, but I have several other episodes where the approved network failed to spot and remedy what turned out to be simple faults (that an indie spotted in an instant). My car failed on me 5 times for crappy little faults whilst being serviced by the approved boys. It has never failed (save for me not disconnecting the bloody battery when it's going to be parked for a while and it going flat) since being looked after outside of the network.
Incidentally, my car is 7yrs old and I've had it for over half of that. It had 10k miles on it when I bought it and now has 37k miles on it, and during my time of ownership it had to be stored for about 15mths as I was abroad. Just to show it gets used
PS The *big* difference between engine out and in service route is that it takes about 22hrs one way and about 6hrs the other...
PPS If the "factory" get it so right and are to be 100% trusted on all things, why are cam belt change intervals 5yrs in the US and 3yrs in the UK?
murph7355 said:
Due respect to ninja, but I wouldn't worry about the cats. Get friendly with an indie (and with cars at this stage of their life that is 100% the way to go in my book, unless you have shares in Vaseline) and it's easy enough to work around. It's also one less thing to go wrong, makes the car lighter and sound better (non-OEM ones are around 800 quid I think).
Hi Andy
Personally I really don't think having the cats out makes the car significantly lighter. Especially given that they have probably been wasted away in anycase (Ferrari quality cats, dont you just love em).
With regards to performance it is louder (and I prefer the sound) but I'm not sure if it makes the car faster. The 355 is already torque challenged, and needs every bit of help it can get to move off. The cats give that little bit more pressure to make it nicer to drive in the earlier rpm ranges.
In any case, what I didn't articulate well was that I think one could use the lack of cats as a bargaining point. I also agree re independants, but if the car is ever inspected, it may be a point that needs to be resolved. Although again, the indie would most probably help with that aspect too
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