Kit car safety
Discussion
I aquaplaned through a French montorway crash barrier at approximately 50mph to an INSTANT stop. The Armco post moved only 5ft to absorb,a very heavy impact. Car was a Fisher Fury Fireblade. Not only did the two of us step out WITH NOT EVEN A SCRATCH OR A SINGLE BRUISE(5 point harnesses), the car absorbed the impact superbly and no deformation of the passenger compartment. In fact, with a new front chassis section and bodywork it will be back on the road and track soon...... Remember if you stuff it into a solid object it only has around 600kg (including occupants weight) to stop, not a ton-and-a-half of tin-top. So there is not a lot of energy. Mine had a serious roll bar fitted but not required fortunately. If its fitted with proper safety equipment then they are no more dangerous than a regular car.
The SVA test is there to ensure that you have assembled a kit in a safe manner or to validate the design of something you created from scratch so anything relatively new will have passed this test. As has been said, the relative light weight works in your favour.
You will find that you can get much cheaper insurance on a kit car. The price you pay is based on the insurance companies knowledge of low risk to them.
If these valid and sound reasons do not win the day with your mother then just mention that you have change your mind about kit cars and are going to get a Kawasaki Ninja instead.
Steve
You will find that you can get much cheaper insurance on a kit car. The price you pay is based on the insurance companies knowledge of low risk to them.
If these valid and sound reasons do not win the day with your mother then just mention that you have change your mind about kit cars and are going to get a Kawasaki Ninja instead.
Steve
No, they're nothing like as safe as mass produced cars I'm afraid!
I'm probably going to get flamed for this but until someone can show me a kit car that has even ONE EuroNCAP crash test star, I'm not going to be convinced!
They don't have to do ANY of the crash tests that mainstream cars have to do. The SVA test does a "visual" check that it stands at least half a chance of doing the old "full frontal" crash test and that the seat belt anchorages probably won't rip out in a crash.
Some kits are undoubtledly safer than others and properly located harnesses and a decent roll cage are definitely worth having but for most kits, their small size and light weight counts against them in any kind of vehicle-to-vehicle impact.
They are, however, statistically pretty safe because they do very low mileages and are generally driven by people who care enough about cars and driving to want to actually build one themselves.
I like kit cars, I think they're great fun and I'd happily drive (most) kits but I think we're kidding ourselves if we try to convince ourselves that they are as safe as an ordinary car. True, almost everyone in the industry will have a tale to tell about a 5000MPH head-on crash with a Range Rover where everyone in the Range Rover died and the guy in the kit car hopped out unscathed but by and large these are freak accidents.
I'm probably going to get flamed for this but until someone can show me a kit car that has even ONE EuroNCAP crash test star, I'm not going to be convinced!
They don't have to do ANY of the crash tests that mainstream cars have to do. The SVA test does a "visual" check that it stands at least half a chance of doing the old "full frontal" crash test and that the seat belt anchorages probably won't rip out in a crash.
Some kits are undoubtledly safer than others and properly located harnesses and a decent roll cage are definitely worth having but for most kits, their small size and light weight counts against them in any kind of vehicle-to-vehicle impact.
They are, however, statistically pretty safe because they do very low mileages and are generally driven by people who care enough about cars and driving to want to actually build one themselves.
I like kit cars, I think they're great fun and I'd happily drive (most) kits but I think we're kidding ourselves if we try to convince ourselves that they are as safe as an ordinary car. True, almost everyone in the industry will have a tale to tell about a 5000MPH head-on crash with a Range Rover where everyone in the Range Rover died and the guy in the kit car hopped out unscathed but by and large these are freak accidents.
Avocet said:
True, almost everyone in the industry will have a tale to tell about a 5000MPH head-on crash with a Range Rover where everyone in the Range Rover died and the guy in the kit car hopped out unscathed but by and large these are freak accidents.
Indeed - rather than crashing into the Range Rover wouldn't you just drive under it and out the other side...
Avocet said:
I'm probably going to get flamed for this but until someone can show me a kit car that has even ONE EuroNCAP crash test star, I'm not going to be convinced!
I know it was in the eighties but Midas did put their Gold car through the crash test of the time. See www.midascars.co.uk/page9.html.
Do the current kit producers put their cars through the seatbelt test that was popular in the '80s and '90s?
modern kits ahve a shed load of new regs
deformable steering columns and the like
crumple zones
ask this when choosing one at a show and take your mum
they will be willing to show you ther safty features they have safer than a classic i think
but there is as much safty as you are willing to pay for and you cann allways add strength and safty if you want
deformable steering columns and the like
crumple zones
ask this when choosing one at a show and take your mum
they will be willing to show you ther safty features they have safer than a classic i think
but there is as much safty as you are willing to pay for and you cann allways add strength and safty if you want
Midas are to be commended for their go at the old "full frontal" test back then. I think Caterham have also done the same test. Unfortunately, the car passed or failed by how far back towards the driver the steering column moved. Compare this with the current crash test for mass produced cars where the car only hits the barrier with HALF its front (the driver's side) and it passes or fails by how badly injured the crash test dummy is. The problem with the old test is that it meant that cars which were built like tanks and / or very light, hit the wall and pretty much stopped dead. Some Low Volume manufacturers even used to boast about how their vehicle was still "driveable" afterwards...
...that was before they realised crumple zones were actually a GOOD idea because they limit the deceleration that the occupants experience. Put another way, if you were going to hit a wall fast, would you rather be inside a ping pong ball or a damp cardboard box? The manufacturer of the ping pong ball might boast about how little damage was done to the ball!
The point about classic cars is a good one. If your mum would be happy for you to drive (say) an old MG Midget or something even older, then you may as well get in a kit car - There won't be that much to choose between them!
It's all a question of degree, really. My own car doesn't have airbags, side impact beams, seat belt pre-tensioners, peak load limiters, Electronic Stability Control etc but I feel safe enough in it. If your mum wants you to be "safe" will she insist on you getting a car with all of the above features?
...that was before they realised crumple zones were actually a GOOD idea because they limit the deceleration that the occupants experience. Put another way, if you were going to hit a wall fast, would you rather be inside a ping pong ball or a damp cardboard box? The manufacturer of the ping pong ball might boast about how little damage was done to the ball!
The point about classic cars is a good one. If your mum would be happy for you to drive (say) an old MG Midget or something even older, then you may as well get in a kit car - There won't be that much to choose between them!
It's all a question of degree, really. My own car doesn't have airbags, side impact beams, seat belt pre-tensioners, peak load limiters, Electronic Stability Control etc but I feel safe enough in it. If your mum wants you to be "safe" will she insist on you getting a car with all of the above features?
Sorry, forgot to say that I'm only aware of a few of kit manufacturers that have done the seat belt anchorage test. This really upsets me as it needn't be that expensive. If I had my way, there would be an "NCAP" programme and star rating for kit cars. Obviously, the stuff the major manufacturers do would just bankrupt almost any kit manufacturer but I really think there are a few tests they could do that wouldn't break the bank and I don't think it's fair that the manufacturers who HAVE done the tests don't seem to be getting any marketing advantage out of having done so.
I used to scare people in my old car - I would tell that in an impact we would face pretty much certain death. The old Roadsters have huge steel rails which would act as rails for anything crashing into me from the front/rear and a side impact would obliterate the occupants as well! The Libra is a different kettle of fish entirely mind.
I'm of the opinion that when you are in any car you should know your own mortality, in Kit-Cars this is even more important...
I'm of the opinion that when you are in any car you should know your own mortality, in Kit-Cars this is even more important...
don’t know if its of any use to you but I has a head-on with a hilux. Passenger and I both walked away all it did was trash the front of the car and send it backwards. how ever i do have good seats and 4 point harnesses. how evere id like to add the impact speed would have been around 30mph ish
If you are worried about accidents buy a 5-star NCAP Renault Scenic. If you want to enjoy yourself buy a sportscar. If the car has passed SVA and it is from a respected manufacturer then you can be fairly confident it will not fall apart in a crash. Would i prefer to crash my Fisher Fury or my mates MX5, the best selling sportscar of all time? No rollbar, no harnesses? It's a no-brainer, the kit-car every time. If the car had rolled? You would be dead in the MX5, period. Flat. Probobly half hanging out the door. In my Fury? Hopefully sitting very small under the Roll hoop, 5 point harness keeping me well out of harms way. Dont even ask what happens when you crash a 30 year old classic car.......
Go and watch the 750 MC racing kit car cars and witness a few of the accidents. There have been some serious smacks but very few injuries. Most of these cars are designed with racing in mind, they stand up to an impact with a solid object very well. Many roadgoing kit cars have safety equipment that will pass racing regs. If you factor in rolling and something hitting your head like an Armco, or a Juggernaught, then obviously it's a bit different. But no different to an MX5, or Porsche Boxter. You do not need airbags in a harnessed' kit car as if somehow your head is anywhere near the steering wheel then nothings gonna save you as you are having a MONSTER crash, probobly involving Beachy Head.
My advice would be buy a GOOD kitcar, with 4 or 5 point harnesses, an extinguisher, some sort of roll bar WHICH IS ABOVE THE LINE OF YOUR HEAD ( you may laugh, many (including a WESTFIELD DEMONSTRATOR I saw) are actually lower than your head(!) which will probobly crack your skull and kill you in a 10mph rear end shunt, let alone a roll). Last but not least, get involved and learn how to DRIVE it properly, they are generally very fast with NO driver aids to save you from a crash in the first place. Airfield days are perfect, ie: Bruntingthorpe.
Tell your mum if you buy a good quality one and invest in a bit of track time it is not dangerous, and far safer than a bike as stated!!!!
Go and watch the 750 MC racing kit car cars and witness a few of the accidents. There have been some serious smacks but very few injuries. Most of these cars are designed with racing in mind, they stand up to an impact with a solid object very well. Many roadgoing kit cars have safety equipment that will pass racing regs. If you factor in rolling and something hitting your head like an Armco, or a Juggernaught, then obviously it's a bit different. But no different to an MX5, or Porsche Boxter. You do not need airbags in a harnessed' kit car as if somehow your head is anywhere near the steering wheel then nothings gonna save you as you are having a MONSTER crash, probobly involving Beachy Head.
My advice would be buy a GOOD kitcar, with 4 or 5 point harnesses, an extinguisher, some sort of roll bar WHICH IS ABOVE THE LINE OF YOUR HEAD ( you may laugh, many (including a WESTFIELD DEMONSTRATOR I saw) are actually lower than your head(!) which will probobly crack your skull and kill you in a 10mph rear end shunt, let alone a roll). Last but not least, get involved and learn how to DRIVE it properly, they are generally very fast with NO driver aids to save you from a crash in the first place. Airfield days are perfect, ie: Bruntingthorpe.
Tell your mum if you buy a good quality one and invest in a bit of track time it is not dangerous, and far safer than a bike as stated!!!!
As Docevi1 sail, our Libras are basically a GRP safety cell will thick GRP rollstructure built in. Forfunately not many have been seriously stuffed but i know of one which hit a lampost side on at HIGH speed. Guy was uninjured. A Libra would be a good place to start looking, there are a few 1.4 litre ones out there at around £6,000 used.
You could ask the manufacturers at shows what safety testing they've done and watch them squirm! Most of them will mutter something about SVA and I'm sure they'll all have anecdotal stuff like the accounts above but probably not much else by way of hard facts. I think the sooner people start to pester them about safety, the sooner they'll get their fingers out and do some real testing! As has been said, the old-established marques - particularly those that get used for racing are probably going to have had some decent shunts on the track during their lives but it's one thing stuffing into a tyre wall on a track and being surrounded by marshals and medics and its quite another to put it into a wall on a lonely country road and wait for the next passer-by to spot you!
If someone can e-mail me on l.champion@virgin.net who knows how to paste pics to this thread I will send them a pic of the Fury in a 50 mph armco post shunt. Not only did it hold together well and we walked away without a scratch, it can be repaired. Then can we stop saying everyone is going to die in a kit car crash please. Its a properly consructed car.
Edited by Furyblade_Lee on Wednesday 28th June 07:46
Furyblade_Lee said:
I aquaplaned through a French montorway crash barrier at approximately 50mph to an INSTANT stop. The Armco post moved only 5ft to absorb,a very heavy impact. Car was a Fisher Fury Fireblade. Not only did the two of us step out WITH NOT EVEN A SCRATCH OR A SINGLE BRUISE(5 point harnesses), the car absorbed the impact superbly and no deformation of the passenger compartment. In fact, with a new front chassis section and bodywork it will be back on the road and track soon...... Remember if you stuff it into a solid object it only has around 600kg (including occupants weight) to stop, not a ton-and-a-half of tin-top. So there is not a lot of energy. Mine had a serious roll bar fitted but not required fortunately. If its fitted with proper safety equipment then they are no more dangerous than a regular car.
Yep, you are who I thought you might be (cant be that many people using the internet name Furyblade that have aquaplaned their Fisher in France
). Greetings from a fellow GT4er who's checking out Libras. If you email me the pics I can host them when I get home from work. Alternatively, photobucket may work? (I dont know, I cant access it from work to try posting a pic).
Better still, Someone post a photo of a car that has done a proper crash test under controlled conditions and show me the downloaded data from the crash test dummies and I'll shut up about dying in kit cars! (assuming it passed!)
Come on chaps, I like kit cars as much as the next guy but let's call a spade a spade here! As someone else said earlier, if you want safety buy a Meganne or a Volvo but such buyers generally steer clear of kits. I can't help feeling there must be a reason for that!
Come on chaps, I like kit cars as much as the next guy but let's call a spade a spade here! As someone else said earlier, if you want safety buy a Meganne or a Volvo but such buyers generally steer clear of kits. I can't help feeling there must be a reason for that!
I think Avocet is trying to say.- You are giving real life examples of "on road accidents & crashes". These are not restricted/controlled crash examples so they dont count.
I also spun my Westfield along the tyre wall at Goodwood a few years ago. I thought I might be able to take Madgwick Corner flat out from the Chicane. Well it stopped my day but I drove home in it. I would like to see an NCAP rated vehicle do it. And it just cost £180 in parts to repair.
Seriously though I do belive that when the kits are designed the chassis tubeing ect is specified with considerable knowledge & data for the job in hand. And after spending some time working in a car repair workshop specialising in new Jaguars I am sure you will be safer in a kit car as they would never pass an SVA and minor bumps seam to have major effects.
So answer this. Would you rather travel in an Ultima at its maximum speed (150? ish) or indeed any other kit car for that matter or its same priced NCAP passed eqivelant at its maximun speed?
I also spun my Westfield along the tyre wall at Goodwood a few years ago. I thought I might be able to take Madgwick Corner flat out from the Chicane. Well it stopped my day but I drove home in it. I would like to see an NCAP rated vehicle do it. And it just cost £180 in parts to repair.
Seriously though I do belive that when the kits are designed the chassis tubeing ect is specified with considerable knowledge & data for the job in hand. And after spending some time working in a car repair workshop specialising in new Jaguars I am sure you will be safer in a kit car as they would never pass an SVA and minor bumps seam to have major effects.
So answer this. Would you rather travel in an Ultima at its maximum speed (150? ish) or indeed any other kit car for that matter or its same priced NCAP passed eqivelant at its maximun speed?
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