Advice on Elise 111r
Discussion
Advice needed please....I am toying with buying a 111R for weekend and sunny day use,however i did drive one a few months back and thought the handling,braking etc was excellent..my only concern was the lack of torque from the engine and that to go quick it was necessary to hammer it hard(something im not that keen to do that often).Has anyone else experienced the same thoughts and not bought one coz of that,or alternatively bought one and got used to the power delivery over time?im just a bit concerned that driving the car for a longish period of time will become tiresome?
I do have a 111R and have to admit that the torque is not good at low and mid range. As you precisely noticed the engine is fun in a narrow band and you have to stay in it to feel the thrill (other than handling, braking,...)
If you believe you won't be frequently revving high I would strongly suggest to take a 111S (more torquey) with 160 bhp but the gearbox is (too) long or to wait for the new elise S (but I have absolutely no idea about its low rev habilities)
I do not want to refrain you from the R (which is a great car when you "trash" it) but you mention a real default that may not suit your driving style.
Ben
If you believe you won't be frequently revving high I would strongly suggest to take a 111S (more torquey) with 160 bhp but the gearbox is (too) long or to wait for the new elise S (but I have absolutely no idea about its low rev habilities)
I do not want to refrain you from the R (which is a great car when you "trash" it) but you mention a real default that may not suit your driving style.
Ben
Davey S2 said:
Sounds like you need a different type of car if just wafting around is all you want.
You do have to spank the Toyota engined cars to get all the performance.
I dont just to 'waft' about as you put it, but i want to be able to get up and go without dropping down 3 gears and hitting the rev limiter everytime i want to go from 50-90 mph for example...If that is excatly what you have to do then my question could be answered. You do have to spank the Toyota engined cars to get all the performance.
kayc said:
Davey S2 said:
Sounds like you need a different type of car if just wafting around is all you want.
You do have to spank the Toyota engined cars to get all the performance.
I dont just to 'waft' about as you put it, but i want to be able to get up and go without dropping down 3 gears and hitting the rev limiter everytime i want to go from 50-90 mph for example...If that is excatly what you have to do then my question could be answered.You do have to spank the Toyota engined cars to get all the performance.
2 gears are enough....
You need top overcome your obvious reluctance to "Spank" the car, if you are used to dropping just one gear to get the car going, just modify your style so its 2 gears instead.
I drive a 111R every day, however the family car is a diesel Zafira, I am constantly dropping a gear on the Zafira and then remembering to put it back in the previous gear, because my style is now to keep the revs higher.
The engine will cope with just about anything you throw at it, so long as you dont buzz it. On another thread on running on here at the moment there is a discussion about milage started by Gooby. He has a high milage 111R and is not bashful in driving his car hard, it copes with it all in its stride. (Should mention that he does have a new engine, cos he did manage to buzz his some time ago)
Up to you really, do you want to adapt you style or keep it as is. Either way choose a car that suites what you decide.
I drive a 111R every day, however the family car is a diesel Zafira, I am constantly dropping a gear on the Zafira and then remembering to put it back in the previous gear, because my style is now to keep the revs higher.
The engine will cope with just about anything you throw at it, so long as you dont buzz it. On another thread on running on here at the moment there is a discussion about milage started by Gooby. He has a high milage 111R and is not bashful in driving his car hard, it copes with it all in its stride. (Should mention that he does have a new engine, cos he did manage to buzz his some time ago)
Up to you really, do you want to adapt you style or keep it as is. Either way choose a car that suites what you decide.
Morning everyone
I don't drive our Car everyday only at weekend's really, you don't have to drop down two gear's in fact you don't really need to drop any if you don't want to be going at very high speed's. The R is fine to drive around without nailing it every five minutes, I'm actually surprised how normal it can be if you want it to be, my advice is buy it! really you wont regret it, they are fantastic car's in every way
Boggy
I don't drive our Car everyday only at weekend's really, you don't have to drop down two gear's in fact you don't really need to drop any if you don't want to be going at very high speed's. The R is fine to drive around without nailing it every five minutes, I'm actually surprised how normal it can be if you want it to be, my advice is buy it! really you wont regret it, they are fantastic car's in every way
Boggy
Edited by boggy on Thursday 29th June 09:08
Edited by boggy on Thursday 29th June 09:29
Was your concern from the figures or from driving it. The first thing that struck me on my test drive, was how much torque the car did have! Such little weight means that all the throttle response from the N/A engine almost turns into torque. Just yesterday I went from 30 in 4th to 60 in a miniscule amount of time compared to the S2000 I had before. Granted the S2000 was no torque machine, but the difference was massive.
Bada Bing! said:
Was your concern from the figures or from driving it. The first thing that struck me on my test drive, was how much torque the car did have! Such little weight means that all the throttle response from the N/A engine almost turns into torque. Just yesterday I went from 30 in 4th to 60 in a miniscule amount of time compared to the S2000 I had before. Granted the S2000 was no torque machine, but the difference was massive.
It wasnt from the figures but from driving one..it was a very short test drive to be fair which is why i had questions afterwards,i am test driving again at the weekend so i shall hope fully get a chance give it a proper go..I've used a 111r for weekends and trackdays for 2 years and I've found the engine/power delivery fine, and well suited to the car (i.e. it can be a hooligan if you want it to be, but reasonably civilised if you don't):
If you're driving hard on a quiet road/track, keeping the engine in the zone is really very easy and no hardship, its almost like a bike engine in that it feels perfectly smooth and happy to cruise at 4k+ revs in lower gears.
For merely 'quick' driving, the handling and lack of weight allow you to carry enough speed through corners and roundabouts that you don't need a great deal of torque to make very decent progress.
For driving at normal traffic speeds, 3k revs in 4th is all you'll ever need.
The only time it can be a hassle is for overtaking, but as i say, I find the engine is very happy to sit at, say, 4k revs in third while you're waiting to move out, then you access the power at just the right time as you're overtaking.
If you're driving hard on a quiet road/track, keeping the engine in the zone is really very easy and no hardship, its almost like a bike engine in that it feels perfectly smooth and happy to cruise at 4k+ revs in lower gears.
For merely 'quick' driving, the handling and lack of weight allow you to carry enough speed through corners and roundabouts that you don't need a great deal of torque to make very decent progress.
For driving at normal traffic speeds, 3k revs in 4th is all you'll ever need.
The only time it can be a hassle is for overtaking, but as i say, I find the engine is very happy to sit at, say, 4k revs in third while you're waiting to move out, then you access the power at just the right time as you're overtaking.
pjm said:
I've used a 111r for weekends and trackdays for 2 years and I've found the engine/power delivery fine, and well suited to the car (i.e. it can be a hooligan if you want it to be, but reasonably civilised if you don't):
If you're driving hard on a quiet road/track, keeping the engine in the zone is really very easy and no hardship, its almost like a bike engine in that it feels perfectly smooth and happy to cruise at 4k+ revs in lower gears.
For merely 'quick' driving, the handling and lack of weight allow you to carry enough speed through corners and roundabouts that you don't need a great deal of torque to make very decent progress.
For driving at normal traffic speeds, 3k revs in 4th is all you'll ever need.
The only time it can be a hassle is for overtaking, but as i say, I find the engine is very happy to sit at, say, 4k revs in third while you're waiting to move out, then you access the power at just the right time as you're overtaking.
Your bike reference seems spot-on ..i had a MV Augusta F4 which had the same power characteristics that i noticed with the 111r..as i say i only had such a short drive in 111r to tell properly....i did get bored with the F4 quite quickly however which is the reason i am having concerns on the lotus...If you're driving hard on a quiet road/track, keeping the engine in the zone is really very easy and no hardship, its almost like a bike engine in that it feels perfectly smooth and happy to cruise at 4k+ revs in lower gears.
For merely 'quick' driving, the handling and lack of weight allow you to carry enough speed through corners and roundabouts that you don't need a great deal of torque to make very decent progress.
For driving at normal traffic speeds, 3k revs in 4th is all you'll ever need.
The only time it can be a hassle is for overtaking, but as i say, I find the engine is very happy to sit at, say, 4k revs in third while you're waiting to move out, then you access the power at just the right time as you're overtaking.
kayc - not knowing anything else about what you plan to use the car for, there are a couple of other 'faults' I should point out that you may not have got from a short test drive. I'm not trying to talk you out of the car - I've had mine for 2 years and I'm only replacing with a 997 GT3 that I have a deposit on - but there are some drawbacks:
The car has been faultlessly reliable despite very hard use - but be prepared for a LOT of rattles. I know this doesn't trouble some people, but I find it hugely irritating.
Its not ideal for 'wind-in-the-hair' motoring - the car gets seriously hot inside on a warm day, the culprit is hot air from the radiator circulating into the cabin and having nowhere to go because of the fixed rear window. If you plan on doing any motorway trips, I'd advise a/c and the roof on.
The battery is a joke.
Anything you put in the boot will melt.
But, on a good drive, it puts a smile on your face like nothing else - although if you got bored of an MV Agusta - you need help!!
The car has been faultlessly reliable despite very hard use - but be prepared for a LOT of rattles. I know this doesn't trouble some people, but I find it hugely irritating.
Its not ideal for 'wind-in-the-hair' motoring - the car gets seriously hot inside on a warm day, the culprit is hot air from the radiator circulating into the cabin and having nowhere to go because of the fixed rear window. If you plan on doing any motorway trips, I'd advise a/c and the roof on.
The battery is a joke.
Anything you put in the boot will melt.
But, on a good drive, it puts a smile on your face like nothing else - although if you got bored of an MV Agusta - you need help!!
No one seems to have pointed out that the 'R' is NOT a slow car when OFF cam!! Its v quick really I seem to keep up with all sorts without hitting 2nd cam.... Its just happens to be v v quick when in the 2nd cam. To me its like I own two different cars and most of the time I'm happy (very happy) with the slower varient ;-) That said I do love the punch in the back with a well timmed down change, passengers love it too!!! 4th gear 55mph drop to 2nd and nail it, you'll fly straight into the 2nd cam, red light - change, red light - change ya back into 4th third red light hello 120 Yeeeeehaaaa :P
I test drove both the S & R back to back last year before purchasing!! Yeah I guess the S was a little more torque'y but the R easily makes up for it with the lower ratio 6 speeder + you get the 2nd cam, beleive me its a no brainer R over S all the way - all IMHO of course!
I test drove both the S & R back to back last year before purchasing!! Yeah I guess the S was a little more torque'y but the R easily makes up for it with the lower ratio 6 speeder + you get the 2nd cam, beleive me its a no brainer R over S all the way - all IMHO of course!
If you are after the torque lower down the rev range try the new base Elise when it's released next month, www.grouplotus.com/car/news_detail.php?id=73 , it develops 127 lbft ( 172 Nm ) at 4200 rpm where as the 111R develops 133 lbft ( 181 Nm ) at 6800 rpm.
The R gets another thumb from me
The R has more than just a peaky engine characteristic - and if you can do without all the other bits the car offers, then don't get one
For me, in the real world, it is plenty quick enough and I like sensible quick! No hooligan, but love to press on. It is as mentioned here before, lively enough in standard use and that fact that there is more, way more when you want to use it is a great bonus
I have done so many drives where 2nd cam just wasn't used and others where it's been exploited fully. It just depends on what your feeling like I guess. Having the choice of Jekyll or Hyde is great!
With regards to thrashing the car to make it work... well I've owned several ‘pacey’ cars (RS, XR, Alfas & TT etc) and have never truly thrashed one in my life - it's just not me. The character of the Toyota engine just invites you to use it and that's genuinely how it feels - used not thrashed
The R has more than just a peaky engine characteristic - and if you can do without all the other bits the car offers, then don't get one
For me, in the real world, it is plenty quick enough and I like sensible quick! No hooligan, but love to press on. It is as mentioned here before, lively enough in standard use and that fact that there is more, way more when you want to use it is a great bonus
I have done so many drives where 2nd cam just wasn't used and others where it's been exploited fully. It just depends on what your feeling like I guess. Having the choice of Jekyll or Hyde is great!
With regards to thrashing the car to make it work... well I've owned several ‘pacey’ cars (RS, XR, Alfas & TT etc) and have never truly thrashed one in my life - it's just not me. The character of the Toyota engine just invites you to use it and that's genuinely how it feels - used not thrashed
Sublime said:
If you are after the torque lower down the rev range try the new base Elise when it's released next month, www.grouplotus.com/car/news_detail.php?id=73 , it develops 127 lbft ( 172 Nm ) at 4200 rpm where as the 111R develops 133 lbft ( 181 Nm ) at 6800 rpm.
it developes peak torque at 6800, that does'nt mean the new car is going develope more just becuase its peak torque is at 4200, a 111r could well be producing the same torque at that point in the rev range without powergraphs to compare you cant say for sure, but i expect the 135hp yota is gonna basically be a 111r engine without the 2nd cam
gooby said:
The whole point of the R is that you drive hard. You have to work to keep it on cam and get involved. If you dont want that then look for a MGF / MX5.
I agree with this- it sounds/feels like you're driving hard when you are and not when you're not-best of both worlds if you ask me. I came from an Integra R and nobody complained about that engine- it had very similar power delivery. Look at the torque figure in isolation and it looks bad- factor in the lower weight compared to other cars and it still feels pretty quick. I like having to think about what gear I'm in and which one I may need to select for upcoming conditions/circumstances- it's part of the fun and means you're driving it not just travelling in it.
Edited by jez o on Thursday 29th June 19:52
As above if you want a Lotus with an engine that will suit your driving style more then go for a 111S, a Sport 135 or a 135R. I have a feeling that the new Toyota engined "S" will seem too tame, lugging around more weight with less power.
Depending on your budget try an Exige S - a much more resolved package for the Toyota engine.
If you're feeling a little more adventurous however, you may like to consider a Honda or Audi-engined Elise, they don't come up for sale privately very often (generally because they are so good), or consider getting a cheap mule and going this route yourself via one of the specialists who will supply and fit a warranteed kit.
The remapped 220bhp+ Honda K20 engine sitting in the back of mine comes onto cam 2 at about 4200rpm and positively screams round to 8000+rpm giving you a much wider torque and power-band in every gear.
The Audi engined cars offer 250 bhp upwards with huge slabs of torque.
The 111R is no slouch, but in comparison would not get anywhere near a Honda or Audi'd car on road, or on track.
/ducks for cover...
P.S. I've just noticed you're in Kent... which is handy, as so am I, and one of the specialists who supplies and fits the Honda kit (Maidstone Sports Cars in Headcorn). If you've tried an 111R, and are thinking of trying a 111S, why not pop down and see Andy & his team and try their demo cars. I promise you, you will be utterly staggered by the performance.
Depending on your budget try an Exige S - a much more resolved package for the Toyota engine.
If you're feeling a little more adventurous however, you may like to consider a Honda or Audi-engined Elise, they don't come up for sale privately very often (generally because they are so good), or consider getting a cheap mule and going this route yourself via one of the specialists who will supply and fit a warranteed kit.
The remapped 220bhp+ Honda K20 engine sitting in the back of mine comes onto cam 2 at about 4200rpm and positively screams round to 8000+rpm giving you a much wider torque and power-band in every gear.
The Audi engined cars offer 250 bhp upwards with huge slabs of torque.
The 111R is no slouch, but in comparison would not get anywhere near a Honda or Audi'd car on road, or on track.
/ducks for cover...
P.S. I've just noticed you're in Kent... which is handy, as so am I, and one of the specialists who supplies and fits the Honda kit (Maidstone Sports Cars in Headcorn). If you've tried an 111R, and are thinking of trying a 111S, why not pop down and see Andy & his team and try their demo cars. I promise you, you will be utterly staggered by the performance.
Edited by S works on Thursday 29th June 23:35
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