Terminal Services - How feasible?
Discussion
Hi Guys
We are planning to install a new Management Information System (MIS). We have 2 sites, one in Glasgow with 20 users, and one in Edinburgh with 30 users. I am based at the Glasgow site. The software vendor is suggesting we use MS Terminal Services for all users, local and remote, to access the MIS only. All other apps will continue to run on the PCs as normal.
What kind of bandwidth would I need to make this feasible? I'm not concerned about the local users as the LAN is 100Mbps switched, but I have my doubts about the remote users. MS recommend 30Kbps per connection, so I'd need 900Kbps for the remote users, but MS are notorious for understating requirements. I'm planning on upgrading our current 256Kbps MPLS VPN to a 2Mbps connection with class of service prioritising TS traffic. Can anyone who's "got the t-shirt" offer any advice, please?
Many thanks
Phil
We are planning to install a new Management Information System (MIS). We have 2 sites, one in Glasgow with 20 users, and one in Edinburgh with 30 users. I am based at the Glasgow site. The software vendor is suggesting we use MS Terminal Services for all users, local and remote, to access the MIS only. All other apps will continue to run on the PCs as normal.
What kind of bandwidth would I need to make this feasible? I'm not concerned about the local users as the LAN is 100Mbps switched, but I have my doubts about the remote users. MS recommend 30Kbps per connection, so I'd need 900Kbps for the remote users, but MS are notorious for understating requirements. I'm planning on upgrading our current 256Kbps MPLS VPN to a 2Mbps connection with class of service prioritising TS traffic. Can anyone who's "got the t-shirt" offer any advice, please?
Many thanks
Phil
Assuming your remote users want to be able to print and have decent screen resolution and color depth 30kbps wont hack it. I would recommend Citrix rather than straight TS because of its management capabilities, add to that a print management solution such as Thinprint. Even with this I would allow a bandwidth of 60k per user but it depends how much printing is being done.
Hi Phil
My understanding is that Citrix's ICA protocol is significantly more efficient that Microsoft's RDP protocol like-for-like. Of course, Citrix is also more expensive per user.
However, quoting xkb/s per user as a bandwidth requirement is not really the full picture. As alluded to by a previous poster, different operations require different amounts of bandwidth so what you'll find is that the x figure is really an average over time and you'll see significant peaks of several times x when users perform certain operations such as opening a new application or running something like Windows Media Player.
Brian Madden does a really good article on this, Terminal Server and Citrix MetaFrame Network Performance Troubleshooting (Part 1 of 2).
I hope this helps,
roadie.
My understanding is that Citrix's ICA protocol is significantly more efficient that Microsoft's RDP protocol like-for-like. Of course, Citrix is also more expensive per user.
However, quoting xkb/s per user as a bandwidth requirement is not really the full picture. As alluded to by a previous poster, different operations require different amounts of bandwidth so what you'll find is that the x figure is really an average over time and you'll see significant peaks of several times x when users perform certain operations such as opening a new application or running something like Windows Media Player.
Brian Madden does a really good article on this, Terminal Server and Citrix MetaFrame Network Performance Troubleshooting (Part 1 of 2).
I hope this helps,
roadie.
Edited by roadsweeper on Friday 30th June 12:09
Will also depend on how many of your remote users will be accessing this application concurrently.
If you thought it would be pretty much near the 30 user mark all the time, i would say that 2mb ( even given a quality of service bandwidth management tool) is well under what you would need.
Terminal services is quite efficient, but 30 users worth of traffic is quite alot.
If you thought it would be pretty much near the 30 user mark all the time, i would say that 2mb ( even given a quality of service bandwidth management tool) is well under what you would need.
Terminal services is quite efficient, but 30 users worth of traffic is quite alot.
We run all our remote branches, connecting into our central database over 2md ADSL lines using citrix metaframe presentation server, the ADSL lines handle up to 20 users concurrently, and the citrix servers in the datacentre handle 35 users with no issues at all.
citrix definately a better option for you than TS I would have thought.
citrix definately a better option for you than TS I would have thought.
RDP 5.2 is not that far being ICA, in terms of bandwidth use.
30kbps for either protocol is a pretty fair guestimate - the bigger the number of users the fewer peaks and troughs there will be overall.
Everything is very application dependant though
- display resolution
- how "graphical" the application is
- how much printing is done
- what about audio
Server sizing (TS or CPS) is of course very application dependent...in some scenarios you can comfortable run 100+ users on a dual core server, others much lower than that.
Licensing - remember that 2K3 TS will require a 2K3 Server licence, a 2K3 CAL per user AND a 2K3 TS CAL.
How critical is your application? You should be looking at deploying N+1 servers so if you lose a server than you have a backup. To do this effectively you need to load balance the servers, all TS can offer you is NLB which won't take into account the "least busy" server, whereas CPS will offer you advanced load balancing. If you don't need redundancy, take a look at Citrix Access Essentials - basically a one-box solution for a maximum of 75 users.
What about dependent applications? Does your MIS system require access to other applications, such as Office? You will need to install that too.
What about file servers, home drives etc? The should ALL be located 'close' to the TS/CPS server...consider the implications of the user having to export a report from the MIS app and saving it to their home drive. For example, export from MIS to home drive then view in MIS = 2 traversals of the WAN to view the doc.
Test environments / release management...bear in mind you are no longer talking about a single client - if you break the TS/CPS server, you break it for everyone.
I'll stop waffling there as I could go on for ever (I do this stuff for a living). Mail me offline if you have any questions.
30kbps for either protocol is a pretty fair guestimate - the bigger the number of users the fewer peaks and troughs there will be overall.
Everything is very application dependant though
- display resolution
- how "graphical" the application is
- how much printing is done
- what about audio
Server sizing (TS or CPS) is of course very application dependent...in some scenarios you can comfortable run 100+ users on a dual core server, others much lower than that.
Licensing - remember that 2K3 TS will require a 2K3 Server licence, a 2K3 CAL per user AND a 2K3 TS CAL.
How critical is your application? You should be looking at deploying N+1 servers so if you lose a server than you have a backup. To do this effectively you need to load balance the servers, all TS can offer you is NLB which won't take into account the "least busy" server, whereas CPS will offer you advanced load balancing. If you don't need redundancy, take a look at Citrix Access Essentials - basically a one-box solution for a maximum of 75 users.
What about dependent applications? Does your MIS system require access to other applications, such as Office? You will need to install that too.
What about file servers, home drives etc? The should ALL be located 'close' to the TS/CPS server...consider the implications of the user having to export a report from the MIS app and saving it to their home drive. For example, export from MIS to home drive then view in MIS = 2 traversals of the WAN to view the doc.
Test environments / release management...bear in mind you are no longer talking about a single client - if you break the TS/CPS server, you break it for everyone.
I'll stop waffling there as I could go on for ever (I do this stuff for a living). Mail me offline if you have any questions.
plasticpig said:
Assuming your remote users want to be able to print and have decent screen resolution and color depth 30kbps wont hack it. I would recommend Citrix rather than straight TS because of its management capabilities, add to that a print management solution such as Thinprint. Even with this I would allow a bandwidth of 60k per user but it depends how much printing is being done.
Certainly not incorrect, but I would only go the ThinPrint route if you have a high volume of printing and you require good performance / low delay to print. Otherwise just retard the print traffic from print server or at ICA virtual channel level (if using ICA client printing)...otherwise it adds a third party product on top of another one (CPS)...cost per seat ever increasing.
UpTheIron said:
Certainly not incorrect, but I would only go the ThinPrint route if you have a high volume of printing and you require good performance / low delay to print.
Otherwise just retard the print traffic from print server or at ICA virtual channel level (if using ICA client printing)...otherwise it adds a third party product on top of another one (CPS)...cost per seat ever increasing.
Otherwise just retard the print traffic from print server or at ICA virtual channel level (if using ICA client printing)...otherwise it adds a third party product on top of another one (CPS)...cost per seat ever increasing.
I agree it increases the costs but it can give very good performace benefits in heavy printing environments. The other major thing to watch out for is that the office printers work with Citrix. I have seen a situation where a client kitted out all their offices with higly expensive colour photocopier/printers only to find that the drivers didnt work with Citrix. No consultation with anyone who knew anything about Citrix first of course
Gassing Station | Computers, Gadgets & Stuff | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff