Notification of disqualification
Discussion
If one were to make the elementary mistake of not submitting one's licence for endorsement following a speeding offence and the DVLA then revoked said licence, what form would the notification take?
Colleague has had cause to contact DVLA for a replacement licence only to be informed that it has been revoked following a speeding offence in 2004. However, since then, said colleague has been stopped twice at the roadside, once for an SP30 and once for 100+, resulting in an appearance before the beak and a 2-week ban.
As you can imagine, colleague's scepticism that two police forces and the magistrate's court somehow didn't notice that his licence was not valid is considerable.
DVLA claim to be unable to produce their copy of the letter notifying colleague of disqualification. I would expect that such a letter (if indeed disqualification is possible without an appearance before the beak) would be sent special delivery, just as a CYA manoeuvre. This doesn't appear to be the case.
Can anyone shed any light or proffer advice?
Colleague has had cause to contact DVLA for a replacement licence only to be informed that it has been revoked following a speeding offence in 2004. However, since then, said colleague has been stopped twice at the roadside, once for an SP30 and once for 100+, resulting in an appearance before the beak and a 2-week ban.
As you can imagine, colleague's scepticism that two police forces and the magistrate's court somehow didn't notice that his licence was not valid is considerable.
DVLA claim to be unable to produce their copy of the letter notifying colleague of disqualification. I would expect that such a letter (if indeed disqualification is possible without an appearance before the beak) would be sent special delivery, just as a CYA manoeuvre. This doesn't appear to be the case.
Can anyone shed any light or proffer advice?
Commander Sah.
You been on the Pimms or are you short of information when being debriefed on this one.
Spent some times with nose in my papers and it still all appears dolallytap but here goes.
Firstly DVLA cannot as I understand it revoke a Licence purely on the grounds of speeding unless it is a New Driver who collects 6points in his first 2 years and Magistrates invoke revocation. Licence, as well you know, can be taken off person in disqualification and this done at Court.
The only time as I can see is that DVLA other than Court can revoke a Licence is on Medical/Mental grounds where information is that person is a danger on the road. They revoke Licence by serving Notice by post on said driver and then go into enquiry mode as to fitness to hold.
You cannot have a FPN/CO for an endorseable offence unless Licence is produced with payment. Non production then case if referred to MagsCourt. There, if Licence not produced, Clerk relies on a Print Out, certified by DVLA, of a persons driving history, tests passed, vehicles authorised to drive, and sins on endorsements, disqualifications, revocations etc. So if your friend has appeared at Court since the speeding conviction then Mags have been satisfied he was the holder of Licence and
lawful.
Just wonder Mags may have passed information down that he was unable to produce Licence on grounds lost and DVLA have put a marker on his records to be aware if he is going to try and operate on two - one, dirty one clean?
Permission to dismiss...
dvd
slopes off muttering mad dogs and englishmen go out in the midday sun....
Edited to correct a sentence which could be taken as a porkie....
You been on the Pimms or are you short of information when being debriefed on this one.
Spent some times with nose in my papers and it still all appears dolallytap but here goes.
Firstly DVLA cannot as I understand it revoke a Licence purely on the grounds of speeding unless it is a New Driver who collects 6points in his first 2 years and Magistrates invoke revocation. Licence, as well you know, can be taken off person in disqualification and this done at Court.
The only time as I can see is that DVLA other than Court can revoke a Licence is on Medical/Mental grounds where information is that person is a danger on the road. They revoke Licence by serving Notice by post on said driver and then go into enquiry mode as to fitness to hold.
You cannot have a FPN/CO for an endorseable offence unless Licence is produced with payment. Non production then case if referred to MagsCourt. There, if Licence not produced, Clerk relies on a Print Out, certified by DVLA, of a persons driving history, tests passed, vehicles authorised to drive, and sins on endorsements, disqualifications, revocations etc. So if your friend has appeared at Court since the speeding conviction then Mags have been satisfied he was the holder of Licence and
lawful.
Just wonder Mags may have passed information down that he was unable to produce Licence on grounds lost and DVLA have put a marker on his records to be aware if he is going to try and operate on two - one, dirty one clean?
Permission to dismiss...
dvd
slopes off muttering mad dogs and englishmen go out in the midday sun....
Edited to correct a sentence which could be taken as a porkie....
Edited by Dwight Vandriver on Saturday 8th July 10:53
My immediate thoughts on this is that the DVLA are having more data problems.
Possibly someone else with the same name has been disqualified in 2004 and database has been updated wrongly.
Has the DVLA had an upgrade to its system and a data conversion gone wrong.
Has the DVLA been trying to correct the admitted data problems and only succeeded in making matters worse.
Have the DVLA merged records with someone else of the same name.
It does not sound like a procedural problem with the court.
Possibly someone else with the same name has been disqualified in 2004 and database has been updated wrongly.
Has the DVLA had an upgrade to its system and a data conversion gone wrong.
Has the DVLA been trying to correct the admitted data problems and only succeeded in making matters worse.
Have the DVLA merged records with someone else of the same name.
It does not sound like a procedural problem with the court.
There is a difference between having licence revoked and being disqualified from driving. You can have your licence revoked but still be legal to drive.
I would have to double check specific facts with DVLA but I'm sure you can drive after you've had your licence revoked for twelve months before being disqualified.
I had my licence revoked after an alleged speeding offence that never made it to me (company car and employer gave DVLA my old address). When I sent of my licence for change of address, I was told it had been revoked but I was still eligible to drive!
Soon cleared up by having points put on licence.
I would have to double check specific facts with DVLA but I'm sure you can drive after you've had your licence revoked for twelve months before being disqualified.
I had my licence revoked after an alleged speeding offence that never made it to me (company car and employer gave DVLA my old address). When I sent of my licence for change of address, I was told it had been revoked but I was still eligible to drive!
Soon cleared up by having points put on licence.
Commander Sah -
I have the honour to submit further information following further research on your intrigueing question and modifies what I have previous stated and could provide an explanation.
Your friend was caught speeding which is an endorseable offence. It now looks as if he did not produce his Licence for Court. The law and consequences on this being:
Where a person who is the holder of a licence is convicted of an offence involving obligatory endorsement, the court must, before making such an endorsement require the licence to be produced to it. (S 27 (1) RTOA 88)
A person who is prosecuted for an offence involving obligatory endorsement and who is the holder of a licence must—
(a) cause it to be delivered to the clerk of the court not later than the day before the date appointed for the hearing, or
(b) post it, at such a time that in the ordinary course of post it would be delivered not later than that day, in a letter duly addressed to the clerk and either registered or sent by the recorded delivery service, or
(c) have it with him at the hearing. (S 7 RTOA 88)
If the holder of the licence has not caused it to be delivered, or posted it, in accordance with section 7 of this Act and does not produce it as required then, unless he satisfies the court that he has applied for a new licence and has not received it—
(a) he is guilty of an offence, and
(b) the licence shall be suspended from the time when its production was required until it is produced to the court and shall, while suspended, be of no effect.
(S 27 (3) RTOA 88)
(5) Where a person has been required under section 27 RTOA 88 to produce a licence to the court and fails to do so, a constable may require him to produce it and, upon its being produced, may seize it and deliver it to the court. (S 164(5) RTA 88).
So S 27(3)(b) RTOA 88 could well be at the root of your question. This coupled with some bad administration between Court and DVLA has allowed your friend to drive on when in fact he didn't have a Licence.
I remain,
Sah,
Your Obedient Servant.
DVD
I have the honour to submit further information following further research on your intrigueing question and modifies what I have previous stated and could provide an explanation.
Your friend was caught speeding which is an endorseable offence. It now looks as if he did not produce his Licence for Court. The law and consequences on this being:
Where a person who is the holder of a licence is convicted of an offence involving obligatory endorsement, the court must, before making such an endorsement require the licence to be produced to it. (S 27 (1) RTOA 88)
A person who is prosecuted for an offence involving obligatory endorsement and who is the holder of a licence must—
(a) cause it to be delivered to the clerk of the court not later than the day before the date appointed for the hearing, or
(b) post it, at such a time that in the ordinary course of post it would be delivered not later than that day, in a letter duly addressed to the clerk and either registered or sent by the recorded delivery service, or
(c) have it with him at the hearing. (S 7 RTOA 88)
If the holder of the licence has not caused it to be delivered, or posted it, in accordance with section 7 of this Act and does not produce it as required then, unless he satisfies the court that he has applied for a new licence and has not received it—
(a) he is guilty of an offence, and
(b) the licence shall be suspended from the time when its production was required until it is produced to the court and shall, while suspended, be of no effect.
(S 27 (3) RTOA 88)
(5) Where a person has been required under section 27 RTOA 88 to produce a licence to the court and fails to do so, a constable may require him to produce it and, upon its being produced, may seize it and deliver it to the court. (S 164(5) RTA 88).
So S 27(3)(b) RTOA 88 could well be at the root of your question. This coupled with some bad administration between Court and DVLA has allowed your friend to drive on when in fact he didn't have a Licence.
I remain,
Sah,
Your Obedient Servant.
DVD
Dwight Vandriver said:
So S 27(3)(b) RTOA 88 could well be at the root of your question. This coupled with some bad administration between Court and DVLA has allowed your friend to drive on when in fact he didn't have a Licence.
Given the information to which I am party, this does indeed seem to be the most likely sequence of events.
What are the likely consequences for unwittingly driving whilst licence is revoked? (DVLA used this specific word)
I presume that in the worst case there is the chance of a spell in stir, whilst the best case would be a chunky fine plus points?
(Many, many thanks for your efforts, DVD. It's very much appreciated)
Edit: Ooh, crikey.
If I'm reading things right, colleague is looking at a level 5 fine (£5K at the moment), 6 months porridge, or both, if he gets pinged for driving whilst disqualified.
I'm drawing this information from the table in Schedule 2 of RTOA 1988. I'm beginning to think that the best advice I can proffer him is "get a good solicitor".
Edited by CommanderJameson on Saturday 8th July 12:01
H'ordeley Sargent, march me in to the Commander....
Sah
I have to report (slings one up)
" .....whilst suspended be of no effect......"
Technically speaking, IMHO he aint got a Licence so if caught could be summoned for driving otherwise that in accordance with a Licence (S87(1) RTA 88). Max fine £1,000, discretionary disqualification and 3 - 6 points and not driving whilst disqualified as we know it.
Failing to surrender Licence also attracts simlar fine but disqualification/points - no. But as this seems to be some 2 years ago limitation on proceedings may well have expired on the summary offence. Can check if so desired but got to guard my poppies in the garden from the Talaban as they are having a hard time in alfgallystan - up the Paras...
But being serious your friend really needs to batten down the holds and screw down all portholes to get back on a level keel and all ship shape. So it looks as if he will have to dock and open up dialogue with DVLA and possibly the Clerk of the Mags Court that suspended the Licence when not produced if that is the case. There appears to be some saving grace in that in subsequent dealings no action was taken re his DL which must be a mitigating factor.
Just wonder if he can get anymore from CAB?
Smart about turn and b**gers off......
Rgds
DVD
Sah
I have to report (slings one up)
" .....whilst suspended be of no effect......"
Technically speaking, IMHO he aint got a Licence so if caught could be summoned for driving otherwise that in accordance with a Licence (S87(1) RTA 88). Max fine £1,000, discretionary disqualification and 3 - 6 points and not driving whilst disqualified as we know it.
Failing to surrender Licence also attracts simlar fine but disqualification/points - no. But as this seems to be some 2 years ago limitation on proceedings may well have expired on the summary offence. Can check if so desired but got to guard my poppies in the garden from the Talaban as they are having a hard time in alfgallystan - up the Paras...
But being serious your friend really needs to batten down the holds and screw down all portholes to get back on a level keel and all ship shape. So it looks as if he will have to dock and open up dialogue with DVLA and possibly the Clerk of the Mags Court that suspended the Licence when not produced if that is the case. There appears to be some saving grace in that in subsequent dealings no action was taken re his DL which must be a mitigating factor.
Just wonder if he can get anymore from CAB?
Smart about turn and b**gers off......
Rgds
DVD
Further developments.
It appears that colleague has been in contact with DVLA who are in the process of returning the licence to him.
Current theory is that they will return licence and quietly not apologise for whole sorry mess.
I must once again express my gratitude for your efforts, DVD - it is much appreciated.
It appears that colleague has been in contact with DVLA who are in the process of returning the licence to him.
Current theory is that they will return licence and quietly not apologise for whole sorry mess.
I must once again express my gratitude for your efforts, DVD - it is much appreciated.
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