NIP Jumping red light
Discussion
My daughter has just recieved a NIP for a red light offence, dated 29th June. Is there any way out of this or does she have to hold her hands up and accept it?
Trouble is she is 18 and only been driving 7 months so she would have to be careful about losing her licence if she gets another one.
I know this has been done to death before so sorry in advance.
Trouble is she is 18 and only been driving 7 months so she would have to be careful about losing her licence if she gets another one.
I know this has been done to death before so sorry in advance.
It all depends...
Is she guilty or innocent?
If its the former then there isnt much way out, if its the latter then if you let us know some more info then I might be able to help.
I have successfully defended myself against three 'expert witnesses' and have helped someone else on PH discount the evidence of two 'expert witnesses'.
The problem is that it is a lot of work to save £60 so it would be for moral reasons as oppose to saving money.
Is she guilty or innocent?
If its the former then there isnt much way out, if its the latter then if you let us know some more info then I might be able to help.
I have successfully defended myself against three 'expert witnesses' and have helped someone else on PH discount the evidence of two 'expert witnesses'.
The problem is that it is a lot of work to save £60 so it would be for moral reasons as oppose to saving money.
Don't know if she is guilty (I would assume so) as she isnt here and doesn't know about it yet, it'll be a nasty surprise when she comes back off holiday.
I am not worried about the £60 fine, just the 3 points and the extra whatever money when I have to re-inure the car next
Can we ask to see the evidence?
I am not worried about the £60 fine, just the 3 points and the extra whatever money when I have to re-inure the car next
Can we ask to see the evidence?
Edited by falcemob on Saturday 8th July 17:04
falcemob said:
Don't know if she is guilty (I would assume so) as she isnt here and doesn't know about it yet, it'll be a nasty surprise when she comes back off holiday.
I am not worried about the £60 fine, just the 3 points and the extra whatever money when I have to re-inure the car next
Can we ask to see the evidence?
I am not worried about the £60 fine, just the 3 points and the extra whatever money when I have to re-inure the car next
Can we ask to see the evidence?
Edited by falcemob on Saturday 8th July 17:04
Yeah, that is a way forward. I am guessing that the evidence may be a red light camera as oppose to a bobby noting down a reg plate.
You wont lose anything by asking to see the evidence. Is anyone else eligable through their insurance who may possibly have been driving the car at the time? If so you could ask to see the evidence on order to find out who the driver was if you cant remember.
You may find that the photo of the car is from behind and wont help much in this which means that if you *really* dont know who is driving then it is very difficult for the CPS to prove who is driving...
I saw 2 cars 'jump' a light the other day because an ambulance was behind them with the sirens blasting. They pulled forwards and to the side to let it through. I saw the gatso flash a couple of times. Thing is, these motorists won't know how to defend themselves. Well I doubt they will. The ambulance could have used the other side of the road, it was clear of traffic.
Boosted.
Boosted.
Boosted LS1 said:
I saw 2 cars 'jump' a light the other day because an ambulance was behind them with the sirens blasting. They pulled forwards and to the side to let it through. I saw the gatso flash a couple of times. Thing is, these motorists won't know how to defend themselves. Well I doubt they will. The ambulance could have used the other side of the road, it was clear of traffic.
Boosted.
Boosted.
Then the motorists may have got a nasty surprise. As jumping a red light is an absolute offence, then technically they are guilty. Further to that there have been a couple of high profile cases where people have been convicted for their goodwill in helping the emergency services.
justinp1 said:
Boosted LS1 said:
I saw 2 cars 'jump' a light the other day because an ambulance was behind them with the sirens blasting. They pulled forwards and to the side to let it through. I saw the gatso flash a couple of times. Thing is, these motorists won't know how to defend themselves. Well I doubt they will. The ambulance could have used the other side of the road, it was clear of traffic.
Boosted.
Boosted.
Then the motorists may have got a nasty surprise. As jumping a red light is an absolute offence, then technically they are guilty. Further to that there have been a couple of high profile cases where people have been convicted for their goodwill in helping the emergency services.
I know, what a dilemma. I hope I'm never put in that situation.
Boosted.
justinp1 said:
Then the motorists may have got a nasty surprise. As jumping a red light is an absolute offence, then technically they are guilty. Further to that there have been a couple of high profile cases where people have been convicted for their goodwill in helping the emergency services.
Do you know any details, where when etc?
Stubby Pete said:
justinp1 said:
Then the motorists may have got a nasty surprise. As jumping a red light is an absolute offence, then technically they are guilty. Further to that there have been a couple of high profile cases where people have been convicted for their goodwill in helping the emergency services.
Do you know any details, where when etc?
It was the subject of a thread on this forum about 6 months ago. It was quite a hot debate, sorry I cant be more specific!
First off check out the junction in question.
Is it clearly a traffic light junction?
Are the lights obscured?
Is the timing of the lights right?
Some junctions are NOT clear. Near me there's a U turn, with lights, that connects the two sides of a dual carriageway. There are trees planted on the central reservation. The lights are, presumably, phased in with the lights of a large cross roads close by, ensuring that you can only U turn onto the opposite side when the road is clear. The only problem is that you can't see the lights untill you're ontop of them. The first time I encountered them I went straight through, only seeing the lights out of the corner of my eye when I was already commited to turning. Of course I'd done the obvious thing and looked left first so the road was clear but seeing that light infront as I actually turned through the junction was scary.
At this time of year trees grow and many signs and lights will be obscured.
And lastly the timing. This should be in line with the posted speed limit. A bigger allowance is given for higher speed roads to allow for realistic stopping distances. If it's not right you've got no chance and they, not you, are in the wrong. My dad, who does car related court cases for a living, got hundreds of people off red light NIPs last year on this alone.
Is it clearly a traffic light junction?
Are the lights obscured?
Is the timing of the lights right?
Some junctions are NOT clear. Near me there's a U turn, with lights, that connects the two sides of a dual carriageway. There are trees planted on the central reservation. The lights are, presumably, phased in with the lights of a large cross roads close by, ensuring that you can only U turn onto the opposite side when the road is clear. The only problem is that you can't see the lights untill you're ontop of them. The first time I encountered them I went straight through, only seeing the lights out of the corner of my eye when I was already commited to turning. Of course I'd done the obvious thing and looked left first so the road was clear but seeing that light infront as I actually turned through the junction was scary.
At this time of year trees grow and many signs and lights will be obscured.
And lastly the timing. This should be in line with the posted speed limit. A bigger allowance is given for higher speed roads to allow for realistic stopping distances. If it's not right you've got no chance and they, not you, are in the wrong. My dad, who does car related court cases for a living, got hundreds of people off red light NIPs last year on this alone.
I read something a while back about traffic light phasing. 2 cars had collided and somebody had jumped the red or amber. Both drivers stated they had the green light and despite there being independant witnesses against one of the drivers (who vehemently insisted he had a green light) nothing could be done about it. In otherwords he was able to argue black was white, green was red etc and he got away with it despite all the pressure put upon him. This was before camera's I hasten to add.
Boosted.
Boosted.
triple7 said:
Ask to be sent the photo. If it shows her clearly jum ping a red there is no case to answer.
G
G
I assume you mean that the other way around. If she is clearly jumping a red light she has limited defences, but a case to answer. A submission of no case to answer is when the evidence is so flimsy that a properly directed jury would not convict.
I would hope that you can always appeal a red light i.e. moving forwards to allow an ambulance through on the grounds of necessity.
An update on this, she has just come back from holiday and said she is unaware of the incident. She said the traffic was very heavy that day (always is there) and she could have been caught on the wrong side of a stop line and moved off when the lights went red.
She is a relatively new driver and not fully up to speed with all the cameras etc. I think she is going to hold her hands up to it and be shafted by the met police.
Thanks for all the input.
She is a relatively new driver and not fully up to speed with all the cameras etc. I think she is going to hold her hands up to it and be shafted by the met police.
Thanks for all the input.
falcemob said:
<snip>I think she is going to hold her hands up to it and be shafted by the met police.
Well, if she did cross the stop line when the lights were on red (the induction loops are *just* beyond the line...) then she has been baged to rights...she'll be more careful next time about "nipping round".
Hard lines.
falcemob said:
An update on this, she has just come back from holiday and said she is unaware of the incident. She said the traffic was very heavy that day (always is there) and she could have been caught on the wrong side of a stop line and moved off when the lights went red.
She is a relatively new driver and not fully up to speed with all the cameras etc. I think she is going to hold her hands up to it and be shafted by the met police.
Thanks for all the input.
She is a relatively new driver and not fully up to speed with all the cameras etc. I think she is going to hold her hands up to it and be shafted by the met police.
Thanks for all the input.
If the front of her car has already passed the line when it turned red then she has not committed an offence. Unless it is a box junction of course!
It will all come down to the picture(s). To prove it properly there should be two which would show the point at which the car crossed the line. Otherwise, if you defend the case it would be very difficult to prove you otherwise.
cymtriks said:
First off check out the junction in question.
Is it clearly a traffic light junction?
Are the lights obscured?
Is the timing of the lights right?
Some junctions are NOT clear. Near me there's a U turn, with lights, that connects the two sides of a dual carriageway. There are trees planted on the central reservation. The lights are, presumably, phased in with the lights of a large cross roads close by, ensuring that you can only U turn onto the opposite side when the road is clear. The only problem is that you can't see the lights untill you're ontop of them. The first time I encountered them I went straight through, only seeing the lights out of the corner of my eye when I was already commited to turning. Of course I'd done the obvious thing and looked left first so the road was clear but seeing that light infront as I actually turned through the junction was scary.
At this time of year trees grow and many signs and lights will be obscured.
And lastly the timing. This should be in line with the posted speed limit. A bigger allowance is given for higher speed roads to allow for realistic stopping distances. If it's not right you've got no chance and they, not you, are in the wrong. My dad, who does car related court cases for a living, got hundreds of people off red light NIPs last year on this alone.
Is it clearly a traffic light junction?
Are the lights obscured?
Is the timing of the lights right?
Some junctions are NOT clear. Near me there's a U turn, with lights, that connects the two sides of a dual carriageway. There are trees planted on the central reservation. The lights are, presumably, phased in with the lights of a large cross roads close by, ensuring that you can only U turn onto the opposite side when the road is clear. The only problem is that you can't see the lights untill you're ontop of them. The first time I encountered them I went straight through, only seeing the lights out of the corner of my eye when I was already commited to turning. Of course I'd done the obvious thing and looked left first so the road was clear but seeing that light infront as I actually turned through the junction was scary.
At this time of year trees grow and many signs and lights will be obscured.
And lastly the timing. This should be in line with the posted speed limit. A bigger allowance is given for higher speed roads to allow for realistic stopping distances. If it's not right you've got no chance and they, not you, are in the wrong. My dad, who does car related court cases for a living, got hundreds of people off red light NIPs last year on this alone.
Sorry for reposting but it just isn't true that
photo = guilty
Check the camera timing! My dad got hundreds of people off, entirely legitimately, on this issue last year.
If her excuse about heavey traffic is true then ask for the photos and look at the car positions, is there any evidence that her car wasn't over the line when the lights changed?
Also check for an greenery that might have hidden a sign or light change?
Position of the sun? I once had to open the car door and lean out with one foot on the road to check the lights because of sun directly on the lights! If you can proove that the light wasn't visible then it ain't your fault!
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