Has the press backlash started re the Cayman
Discussion
Picked up my copy of Car this weekend, Next to the piece on the GT3RS was a small one announcing the non-S Cayman. In short it said don't buy it as its too expensive. Along with Chris Harris saying the Cayman S is too expensive now the BoxsterS has the same engine it seems that the sort of thing a lot of people have said here may be filtering through to the press.
Its a shame that the guys at Porsche haven't noticed yet.
Its a shame that the guys at Porsche haven't noticed yet.
I'm not really surprised. I think the Boxster and Cayman are both fine cars - great cars, in fact, but the differences behind the wheel are really marginal. To my mind, they should cost the same. One offering a slightly more track orientated/hardcore experience, the other more road-biased. As for the motoring press perhaps doing a small about-face, I remember feeling pretty old the day I realised that motoring journos don't really know much more than I do. Reading articles on the launch of any new Ferrari, and nearly every new Porsche is almost depressing. More often than not, they are written as though a school essay competition winner was plucked from 6th form and sent to Maranello/Stuttgart. It seems to take a while for the initial excitement and 'omygawd' factor to die down a bit and let reason and objectivity into the argument.
Edited by loach on Monday 10th July 10:52
Los Angeles said:
A great driver's car.Unless it's Tiptronic.
Seriously, though. I got a chance to drive a Cayman S Tiptronic around for 2 days about a week ago. Didin't think the gearbox suited the car at all. I got to try the new 997TT last Friday, and though it was a Tip, didn't hate it as much as I thought I would - it seemed to suit the car a little better. Even more peculiar, is that I didn't like the Tiptronic application in the 996 TT at all.
It might be a huge problem for Porsche, this Cayman/Boxster price thingy. Presumably, the sensible thing to do would be to lower the prices as suggested so that the Boxster and Cayman are roughly equivalent - if anything, the Cayman should be cheaper. I guess the problem lies with reputation and residuals etc...some existing Cayman owners are going to be pee'd off already at the engine advantage being wiped out. If Porsche suddenly cut the list prices as well, the residuals would plummet. Bad news. Thing is, have they really sold that many of them? Could they not afford to reimburse existing owners the difference between what they paid and a new more realistic list price in order to quell any ill feeling? More to the point, would any of the existing Cayman owners have a legal leg to stand on if Porsche lowered the list prices without reimbursing existing owners?? I suspect not.
J.
J.
jezzaaa said:
It might be a huge problem for Porsche, this Cayman/Boxster price thingy. Presumably, the sensible thing to do would be to lower the prices as suggested so that the Boxster and Cayman are roughly equivalent - if anything, the Cayman should be cheaper.
From the outset, the Cayman has been a marketing pa$tiche that answers a question very few people asked when the Boxster is the more economical/practical/multitalented Porsche buyers wanted. The 911 remains the tintop Porsche that most (all?) aspire to.
It was said at the launch, and it should be said again... £50k for a Boxster coupe? I don't think so...
I would like to know how many Cayman S they have sold compared to Boxster S since the launch (of the Cayman S. Appart from dealers forecourts, I have only seen two on the road - one outside Harrods in Feb (its natural habitat?) and the other out here in Switzerland (and this one had 'Porsche Driving Experience' sitckers on it.)
I bought a new Boxster 2.7 in 2002 but would have bought 'the coupe version' if one was available then *and* it was let's say 5% cheaper.
The used market is a great leveler and I would expect to see used Cayman S prices drop below 'the equivalent' Boxster S prices onces the novelty has worn off and a few are on the market - possibly in another 18 months time however, it will always have rarity value on its side as there appear to be so few of them around.
The official Swiss importer was doing special deals on Boxsters earlier this year throwing in a bunch of 'essential' extras for free worth approx 7% of list.
This was surprising to me as spring was the natural time to place an order for summer delivery but they obviously felt the need to do something to keep sales up on the Boxster but the trouble with discounting Boxsters is that it only helps to accentuate the price premium for the Cayman S and this will have contributed to the apparently low number that I've seen on the road out here, at least.
I bought a new Boxster 2.7 in 2002 but would have bought 'the coupe version' if one was available then *and* it was let's say 5% cheaper.
The used market is a great leveler and I would expect to see used Cayman S prices drop below 'the equivalent' Boxster S prices onces the novelty has worn off and a few are on the market - possibly in another 18 months time however, it will always have rarity value on its side as there appear to be so few of them around.
The official Swiss importer was doing special deals on Boxsters earlier this year throwing in a bunch of 'essential' extras for free worth approx 7% of list.
This was surprising to me as spring was the natural time to place an order for summer delivery but they obviously felt the need to do something to keep sales up on the Boxster but the trouble with discounting Boxsters is that it only helps to accentuate the price premium for the Cayman S and this will have contributed to the apparently low number that I've seen on the road out here, at least.
Edited by MogulBoy on Monday 10th July 15:18
In the UK i've only seen 4 or so. which isn't half as many as I've seen of Boxsters. Oddly I saw 2 in the car park of my hotel in Italy this weekend.
I am told though that they have been selling well though.
I can't see the residuals being as strong as the Boxsters are long term as so many people (and now the press) openly say that hey are too expensive.
Porsche won't do anything about this though, they don't have to.
I am told though that they have been selling well though.
I can't see the residuals being as strong as the Boxsters are long term as so many people (and now the press) openly say that hey are too expensive.
Porsche won't do anything about this though, they don't have to.
pikey said:
loach said:
I think the Boxster and Cayman are both fine cars - great cars, in fact, but the differences behind the wheel are really marginal.
I disagree. I had a Boxster S for a week on loan and found it very different. Really great car - but quite different to drive.
Have only driven the Boxster S, not the Cayman, though Tiff said he couldn't feel an improvement over the Boxster with the Cayman, and being cheaper he'd go for the Boxster.
My humble thought on the subject.
Had a Cayman S as a loan car (997 owner) and thought it a great car. However, just couldn't help agreeing with a certain Mr. Clarkson who thought that it felt under-engineered (i.e. it could've been so much better but then it would be too close to the 911..). Everything was great but I just couldn't shake the feeling of driving a 'compromise'.
Was I to be in the market at that budget, I'd definitely go for the Boxster. Can't justify the price differential for the Cayman.
Now if they were to make a Cayman GT...
Had a Cayman S as a loan car (997 owner) and thought it a great car. However, just couldn't help agreeing with a certain Mr. Clarkson who thought that it felt under-engineered (i.e. it could've been so much better but then it would be too close to the 911..). Everything was great but I just couldn't shake the feeling of driving a 'compromise'.
Was I to be in the market at that budget, I'd definitely go for the Boxster. Can't justify the price differential for the Cayman.
Now if they were to make a Cayman GT...
pikey said:
loach said:
I think the Boxster and Cayman are both fine cars - great cars, in fact, but the differences behind the wheel are really marginal.
I disagree. I had a Boxster S for a week on loan and found it very different. Really great car - but quite different to drive.
To be fair, I was stuck with a Tiptronic box on the Cayman I drove, so it may not have been an absolutely fair assessment. I noticed differences between the Cayman S and Boxster S. The Cayman did feel a little sharper, felt a bit more aggressive with its stiff ride and more darty disposition, made a nicer noise and more of it. My point was that I felt some of these differences were just a little bit marginal for me given the extra cost of the fixed head coupe. The Boxster S is already such a great car. Now that it has recieved the upgraded engine.....
Additionally, luck would have it that I drove the Cayman on a day when the sun was splitting the stones. At least once every few minutes I wished that I was in a Boxster instead.
BUT - I'm not saying I think the Cayman is rubbish. It's pretty, and I did think it was exceptionally nice to drive - Tip notwithstanding.
X15 JEB said:
Now if they were to make a Cayman GT...
The Cayman could of been a great car, if they could build a GT or RS version with the same engine and equipment as say the GT3, that would be 1 hell of a machine!!
And if it was 'quicker' than a NA 911 and even GT3 which it surely would be, how would you feel about this?
IMO what Porsche should do is go crazy with carbon panels and other exotica yummys put the new GT3 engine in there and charge more for it than a 997 GT3RS.
By doing this people wouldnt get too upset that the Gayman is faster and you then have a choice if they want an ultimate track day tool a Cayman RSGT or a 997GT3 which is now more of a compromised track/road car then ever before with its new PASM etc.
Im sure a Cayman RSGT would sell really well..
Porsche you listening??
I want 1 !!
...rob
RichardD said:
mikeyboy said:
...I guess I was trying to get some opinions on what solutions Porsche could come up to if this potentially damaging set of events carry on.
Have a cull at the bottom of the 911 range, ie no 911 with less than 350bhp? Then up the Cayman S to 320bhp ?
Good idea - though it might throw a spanner into Wiedeking's 100,000 p.a. or bust plans. Porsche had an opportunity with the new Cayman (non-S) to change the emphasis on the car and make its price far more comparitive with its Boxster equivalent. He didn't bother, so perhaps it's a case of "Problem? What problem?". Certainly in Germany the Cayman seems to be very slow to move off the showroom floors whatever the official figures say. From my own point of view, I had expected the Cayman to take up where the 944/968 range left off, and I had hoped the Cayman and Cayman S models would straddle the basic Boxster 2.7.
For whatever reason, I believe that the marketing department went out on a limb and decided to make the Cayman exercise a bit more profit-intensive by playing on the increasingly relied upon ace that if it's got a Porsche badge on it, it'll sell in spades and no-one will be the wiser. Ultimately, I think Porsche should bite the bullet here and make the Cayman cheaper. Perhaps they could save face and offer a production special edition.
mikeyboy said:
Picked up my copy of Car this weekend, Next to the piece on the GT3RS was a small one announcing the non-S Cayman. In short it said don't buy it as its too expensive. Along with Chris Harris saying the Cayman S is too expensive now the BoxsterS has the same engine it seems that the sort of thing a lot of people have said here may be filtering through to the press.
Its a shame that the guys at Porsche haven't noticed yet.
Its a shame that the guys at Porsche haven't noticed yet.
Actually there have been a few lukewarm reviews over the months. For example evo didn't think much of one on the track and most magazines have commented on the relative price compared to Boxster.
In general I've found that different people buy the Cayman and Boxster - so it's not a case of which is cheaper.
loach said:
From my own point of view, I had expected the Cayman to take up where the 944/968 range left off...
Well in sales numbers it seems to be having a good go at it.
It does seem a shame they haven't gone a bit more balls out with the car. Nearly 20 years ago a 951S had similar performance (more?), arguably better spec for the time (LSD etc) and could beat the offerings from any of the competetion. I thought Porsche would have tried to silence the TVR etc owners who still have the performance card to play.
I'd love a 997Tt/GT3 one day, but there is little to tempt me into the range now whilst I try to achieve the goal.
911silverback said:
X15 JEB said:
Now if they were to make a Cayman GT...
The Cayman could of been a great car, if they could build a GT or RS version with the same engine and equipment as say the GT3, that would be 1 hell of a machine!!
And if it was 'quicker' than a NA 911 and even GT3 which it surely would be, how would you feel about this?
IMO what Porsche should do is go crazy with carbon panels and other exotica yummys put the new GT3 engine in there and charge more for it than a 997 GT3RS.
By doing this people wouldnt get too upset that the Gayman is faster and you then have a choice if they want an ultimate track day tool a Cayman RSGT or a 997GT3 which is now more of a compromised track/road car then ever before with its new PASM etc.
Im sure a Cayman RSGT would sell really well..
Porsche you listening??
I want 1 !!
...rob
That market is so small, I suspect it is sufficiently well served by Ruff, 9ff & etc!
Of course they could do it without all the carbon etc, except I guess it would cost the same as the GT3 and thats a bit of a tricky marketing problem. I think people underestimate the value of 4 seats in convincing wives to let us buy these cars too!
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