Question for Madcop.
Discussion
Hi Madcop.
This question comes from another thread but regards being stopped by the police.
A purely hypothetical scenario.
Driving down a motorway or A road and being followed by a Vauxhall omega or Bmw 5 series.
Two occupants in the car, unable to make out uniforms etc.
Blue lights hidden behind the grill come on.
What should i do?
Should i stop, or drive to a police station, seeing as i dont know who these people are?
Could i /would i be charged with failure to stop in the event they were real police?
This question comes from another thread but regards being stopped by the police.
A purely hypothetical scenario.
Driving down a motorway or A road and being followed by a Vauxhall omega or Bmw 5 series.
Two occupants in the car, unable to make out uniforms etc.
Blue lights hidden behind the grill come on.
What should i do?
Should i stop, or drive to a police station, seeing as i dont know who these people are?
Could i /would i be charged with failure to stop in the event they were real police?
The advice I would give is you should stop in a built up area, keep your doors locked and windows up, ask to see ID, and perhaps a marked car. Dont get out of the car.
If they cant or wont show it tell them to follow you to a police station.
If you are really suspicious dont stop and drive normally to a police station (if you have a mobile call the police - they should be able to confirm within a few mins who it is), if they are police you should get several marked cars behind you within a couple of minutes.
If they cant or wont show it tell them to follow you to a police station.
If you are really suspicious dont stop and drive normally to a police station (if you have a mobile call the police - they should be able to confirm within a few mins who it is), if they are police you should get several marked cars behind you within a couple of minutes.
If you are genuine in your actions and not obviously taking the p@ss then you should not be prosecuted for fail to stop (RTA sec 163) - I have had someone do this to me when I was in an unmarked Volvo, the guy was right in what he did so when he did stop - about a mile later he explained that he did not know for sure we were the police and he wanted to get near a built up area. He was warned regarding his driving before we asked him to stop and went on his way.
A few years ago I was working as a motorcycle courier and cut up a car slightly, he sounded his horn long and loud as a rebuke and came alongside me a little later in the stalled traffic.
He goes "pull over I am a police officer and I want to talk to you now!"
I replied " The road traffic act is clear, you are not in uniform and are not driving a marked police car, so no I won't pull over"
His response "I'll show you my warrant card", I parried "you can show me your penis for all I care, I am not stopping!"
Now I was a on a fleet bike which I changed later that day but our company never had any comebacks at all.
What constitutes a marked police vehicle or a uniformed police officer is open to interpretation.
The problem is if you don't stop and can't get away, the police will get all excited and chase you, probably giving you a few slaps when they get you out of the car.
I doubt that a magistrate would agree that flashing blue lights behind the grill of an otherwise unmarked car denotes a marked police car under the road traffic act.
I have known a magistrate to say that simply by putting a police cap on his head, an officer was then in "uniform"...
He goes "pull over I am a police officer and I want to talk to you now!"
I replied " The road traffic act is clear, you are not in uniform and are not driving a marked police car, so no I won't pull over"
His response "I'll show you my warrant card", I parried "you can show me your penis for all I care, I am not stopping!"
Now I was a on a fleet bike which I changed later that day but our company never had any comebacks at all.
What constitutes a marked police vehicle or a uniformed police officer is open to interpretation.
The problem is if you don't stop and can't get away, the police will get all excited and chase you, probably giving you a few slaps when they get you out of the car.
I doubt that a magistrate would agree that flashing blue lights behind the grill of an otherwise unmarked car denotes a marked police car under the road traffic act.
I have known a magistrate to say that simply by putting a police cap on his head, an officer was then in "uniform"...
Yes, and not wearing one can actually mean they are not in uniform. I know someone who was arrested by a copper who did not have his hat on his head. He was later let off for the officer not being in uniform.
tallchris99 said:
I have known a magistrate to say that simply by putting a police cap on his head, an officer was then in "uniform"...
I would certainly query the situation of an unmarked car with "hidden" blue lights. Unless you can see the uniform of the policeman it could easily be someone pretending to be a police car. There being no other visible evidence. I do not recommend you try and "get away" but I would be sure to drive 100% correctly until you felt you were in a safe environment to stop in case they aren't.
It was worse a few yars ago when the police used to drive around in those Astra Merits. My friend had one behind him and the occupant started flashing his headlights at him for some reason. My friend just kept going and eventually was "ambushed" by a slew of marked police cars.
The police were very aggresive and hyped up and when it was pointed out that there was no obligation to stop they were like "we make the law yeah?!". He was/is an exec for Bitish Airways and does not get into trouble.
Hoepfully attitudes have changed somewhat?
The police were very aggresive and hyped up and when it was pointed out that there was no obligation to stop they were like "we make the law yeah?!". He was/is an exec for Bitish Airways and does not get into trouble.
Hoepfully attitudes have changed somewhat?
There are strict guidelines for stopping vehicles in unmarked cars. The guidelines state that you should if at all possible try to get a marked unit to assist in a stop. Some unmarked cars carry a portable blue flashing lamp but no other equipment. If a vehicle will not respond to this signal to stop, then it is policy to call in other marked units.
Unmarked traffic cars and crime response unit cars are normally fitted with other equipment which if utilised will give the target driver no doubt that it is infact a Police vehicle. They have sirens and dot matrix signs which can be illuminated with different messages to attract drivers attention (unfortunately they are pre programmed messages and cannot be ad-libbed by the crew
)
Unmarked traffic cars and crime response unit cars are normally fitted with other equipment which if utilised will give the target driver no doubt that it is infact a Police vehicle. They have sirens and dot matrix signs which can be illuminated with different messages to attract drivers attention (unfortunately they are pre programmed messages and cannot be ad-libbed by the crew
)
icamm said:
tallchris99 said:
I have known a magistrate to say that simply by putting a police cap on his head, an officer was then in "uniform"...Yes, and not wearing one can actually mean they are not in uniform. I know someone who was arrested by a copper who did not have his hat on his head. He was later let off for the officer not being in uniform.
There is case law on this. The fact that an officer was not wearing a hat did not mean that he was not in uniform. The case law states that if the arrested person could recognise that the person was a Police officer from the garments he was wearing (NATO pullover with numbers on epaulettes, radio attached to his belt, handcuffs, baton shiny boots etc) then that was good enough.
I would certainly query the situation of an unmarked car with "hidden" blue lights. Unless you can see the uniform of the policeman it could easily be someone pretending to be a police car.
You could apply exactly the same principle to a marked car! It has happened in the past.
Unmarked Police cars with hidden blue lights are actually very distinguishable.
In my experience, those that do not carry the required equipment to execute stops of vehicles laid down ithe policy, always follow and give commentary until a marked unit can get into position to do the stop for them.
Officers are advised not to attempt stops in their own vehicles after witnessing incidents.
There being no other visible evidence. I do not recommend you try and "get away" but I would be sure to drive 100% correctly until you felt you were in a safe environment to stop in case they aren't.
That is good advice. If you are uncertain then acknowledge the fact that you have seen the direction to stop by waving or a thumb up sign out of the window, perhaps putting on your hazard indicators and driving under the limit until you are either in an area that you are happy to be stopped in or drive to a Police Station and stop outside it. My guess is that you would normally have been joined by a marked unit by that time in any case.
If you do not try to escape by driving like a lunatic then you will not be criticised for these actions.
Just remember though that as of 1st November 2002, Failing to stop for Police in Uniform (and that does not mean a liveried car) is an arrestable offence.
>> Edited by madcop on Saturday 15th February 11:39
trev r said: So how do you know if the occupants of the car with blue lights in the grille are in uniform or not, taking into account the fact it could be at night or the unmarked car has tinted windows?
You don't and that is the gamble you take by not stopping. The act says 'stopping for Police in uniform'. It says nothing about liveried vehicles!
Of course but your defence is that, due to light conditions etc, you were unable to distinguish whether the person was wearing a uniform. You therefore made the decision to proceed to an area where you could either A) ascertain that they were in uniform or B) to locate someone who was in uniform to confirm the identity of the person.
madcop said:You don't and that is the gamble you take by not stopping. The act says 'stopping for Police in uniform'. It says nothing about liveried vehicles!
trev r said: So how do you know if the occupants of the car with blue lights in the grille are in uniform or not, taking into account the fact it could be at night or the unmarked car has tinted windows?
Well that was the guys personal version of events so I can't offer any proof etc. I also haven't seen the guy for a number of years so can't now confirm it. What the hell, it made a good story
madcop said:There is case law on this. The fact that an officer was not wearing a hat did not mean that he was not in uniform. The case law states that if the arrested person could recognise that the person was a Police officer from the garments he was wearing (NATO pullover with numbers on epaulettes, radio attached to his belt, handcuffs, baton shiny boots etc) then that was good enough.
icamm said:Yes, and not wearing one can actually mean they are not in uniform. I know someone who was arrested by a copper who did not have his hat on his head. He was later let off for the officer not being in uniform.
tallchris99 said:
I have known a magistrate to say that simply by putting a police cap on his head, an officer was then in "uniform"...
icamm said: Of course but your defence is that, due to light conditions etc, you were unable to distinguish whether the person was wearing a uniform. You therefore made the decision to proceed to an area where you could either A) ascertain that they were in uniform or B) to locate someone who was in uniform to confirm the identity of the person.
I think in those cases, the officers attempting to stop you would understand completely why.
You would probably not be arrested in those circumstances if you explained them as such.
Attitude could well play a part as well.
The offence is complete when the driver fails to stop when required. Arrestable offences have the power to be used at any time after the offence has occurred, even years after.
The fact that the driver eventually stopped after 4 or 5 miles would not negate his obligation to do so and the offence would be complete.
What was said by the offending driver after the officers had verbal contact with him may well decide whether he kept his liberty or not. Even if the Custody Sgt refused to accept the charge at the Police Station, it would not make the arrest unlawful!
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