White Squares in the middle of the Road
Discussion
Friday just gone 20.40hrs I was travelling North M1, M18 and then A1 when I was just passing the Rotherham junction when a Police officer timed me between to white squares in the middle of the road, he was parked on a slip road when he clocked me at 101.4 mph which apparently took me only 7 seconds to cover the said distance. (Not sure how far apart these squares are) I was driving at about 90-95 mph but I was over taking 4 or 5 cars that were hovering about in a group and thought get around them and then I slowed back down to about 85mph, I know I was not doing 101.4, there was a Blue Seat tailing me about 3 car lengths behind as mentioned to Police officer (when sat in patrol car) and he said he could only do one at a time.
I believe that it is down to the police officer to activate the time I cross the first square to time I cross the second one, how accurate is this method as I do totally disagree with his recording. As I also told him. Also there was only one P.c in the car.? He did not give me any paper work as he did full checks on me and my car. He read me my rights and said I would have notice in 4-8 weeks to go to court????
Any advice
Thanks
ANYONE REMEMBER THIS POST. WELL READ ON
Since last July I've been waiting to find out the inevitable, I had a pre court hearing on the 22nd of December, I did not have to attend this (instructions from Solicitor) In this mornings post a letter saying that due to the lack of evidence the matter has been dropped.
A happy ending would love to meet Mr Plod that stopped me as he obviously did not do his jo correctly Pleeding not guilty payed off, so think next time your stoped were you doing x,y or z. mph?????
I believe that it is down to the police officer to activate the time I cross the first square to time I cross the second one, how accurate is this method as I do totally disagree with his recording. As I also told him. Also there was only one P.c in the car.? He did not give me any paper work as he did full checks on me and my car. He read me my rights and said I would have notice in 4-8 weeks to go to court????
Any advice
Thanks
ANYONE REMEMBER THIS POST. WELL READ ON
Since last July I've been waiting to find out the inevitable, I had a pre court hearing on the 22nd of December, I did not have to attend this (instructions from Solicitor) In this mornings post a letter saying that due to the lack of evidence the matter has been dropped.
A happy ending would love to meet Mr Plod that stopped me as he obviously did not do his jo correctly Pleeding not guilty payed off, so think next time your stoped were you doing x,y or z. mph?????
Edited by y4mer on Saturday 13th January 17:55
Edited by y4mer on Saturday 13th January 18:00
The system is called VASCAR. Vehicle Average Speed Calculator And Recorder. Check out www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk for more info. Seems a bit suspect that plod didn't give you any paperwork though.
I will have a look, Also he did say that I get no paper work i.e. a producer as when he pulled me over he did not think I was who I said I was, he also checked to see if the car which is a company car was insured, The problem is also that I am working a months notice of which 3 weeks is left, so I told him as was unemployed which I will be if I loose my licence. Thanks, Y4MER
Y4MER said:
Friday just gone 20.40hrs I was travelling North M1, M18 and then A1 when I was just passing the Rotherham junction when a Police officer timed me between to white squares in the middle of the road, he was parked on a slip road when he clocked me at 101.4 mph which apparently took me only 7 seconds to cover the said distance. (Not sure how far apart these squares are) I was driving at about 90-95 mph but I was over taking 4 or 5 cars that were hovering about in a group and thought get around them and then I slowed back down to about 85mph, I know I was not doing 101.4, there was a Blue Seat tailing me about 3 car lengths behind as mentioned to Police officer (when sat in patrol car) and he said he could only do one at a time.
I believe that it is down to the police officer to activate the time I cross the first square to time I cross the second one, how accurate is this method as I do totally disagree with his recording. As I also told him. Also there was only one P.c in the car.? He did not give me any paper work as he did full checks on me and my car. He read me my rights and said I would have notice in 4-8 weeks to go to court????
Any advice
Thanks
I believe that it is down to the police officer to activate the time I cross the first square to time I cross the second one, how accurate is this method as I do totally disagree with his recording. As I also told him. Also there was only one P.c in the car.? He did not give me any paper work as he did full checks on me and my car. He read me my rights and said I would have notice in 4-8 weeks to go to court????
Any advice
Thanks
I don't have time today to post on here about VASCAR, but if you e-mail me I will explain the basis of the defence; I think you'll be surpried how easy it is to defend when you know how.
DON'T take this sitting down.
The sad part is, VASCAR3000, when operated by "eye", usually errs in your favour. So there must have been something not right there.
One in the car makes no difference, if he is backed up by equipment like VASCAR, LIDAR, or a good old fashined calibrated speedo.
However, you admit to be doing 90-95. Take a naff speedo, call it 81-85mph with a 10% inaccuracy.
APCO guidelines are speedlimit plus 10% plus 2mph, so if you were clocked at over 79, you're going to get a loveletter, with some points, and a request for your credit card/bank details.
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime (so they say).
One thing in your favour, you didn't receive a "producer", which you should have if he's reporting you for the offence, as you would be required to produce all relevant documents at your chosen nick within the alloted time.
Unless, it's all recorded on a proper video - which would also show you passing the trigger points, and the time taken to cover the distance. You can then work out your speed accurately.
The video will/can be be analysed to confirm the figures.
One thing that is often said by officers to put the wind up your underpants is "we had to do well over 100 to catch you". Which is fairly obvious if you're doing 70(ish) as you pass them at their parking spot, and they catch you up in 300yds!! But don't answer back, look sheepish, and really really sorry, and be co-operative, they usually let you go.
Rob.
One in the car makes no difference, if he is backed up by equipment like VASCAR, LIDAR, or a good old fashined calibrated speedo.
However, you admit to be doing 90-95. Take a naff speedo, call it 81-85mph with a 10% inaccuracy.
APCO guidelines are speedlimit plus 10% plus 2mph, so if you were clocked at over 79, you're going to get a loveletter, with some points, and a request for your credit card/bank details.
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime (so they say).
One thing in your favour, you didn't receive a "producer", which you should have if he's reporting you for the offence, as you would be required to produce all relevant documents at your chosen nick within the alloted time.
Unless, it's all recorded on a proper video - which would also show you passing the trigger points, and the time taken to cover the distance. You can then work out your speed accurately.
The video will/can be be analysed to confirm the figures.
One thing that is often said by officers to put the wind up your underpants is "we had to do well over 100 to catch you". Which is fairly obvious if you're doing 70(ish) as you pass them at their parking spot, and they catch you up in 300yds!! But don't answer back, look sheepish, and really really sorry, and be co-operative, they usually let you go.
Rob.
Edited by thunderbelmont on Sunday 23 July 15:04
If you were timed as you passed between two marks on the road, and this timing was done by a police officer sitting in a car on a slip road, this sounds to have the potential for considerable error, especially in relation to a nominal time of only seven seconds. Presumably he completed his timing exercise on you and then took off after you to stop you?
Did you by any chance find out the officer's name or number - 'cos I'm just wondering if it could have been my friend who used to spend some of his rest days in a camera van....but no, I'm just speculating.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Did you by any chance find out the officer's name or number - 'cos I'm just wondering if it could have been my friend who used to spend some of his rest days in a camera van....but no, I'm just speculating.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
TripleS said:
If you were timed as you passed between two marks on the road, and this timing was done by a police officer sitting in a car on a slip road, this sounds to have the potential for considerable error, especially in relation to a nominal time of only seven seconds. Presumably he completed his timing exercise on you and then took off after you to stop you?
One would hope so, otherwise the calculation of the velocity to a tenth of an mph seems a little optimistic.thunderbelmont said:
The sad part is, VASCAR3000, when operated by "eye", usually errs in your favour.
How do you work that out then?
I've always had this argument about vascar.
One assumes that because it is between painted squares the distance is known and system operated in pre-fed mode.
Prior opinion of speeding as in "Hello Hello Hello he's shifting will time him"
First push of button i.e. start of timimg may, or indeed may not to be fair about it, depend upon ossifer Duncan Disorderly's reaction time. In other words bit late on the push.
Second push i.e end of timimg, the finger is there, primed and ready, easy to get a bit of anticipation.
The approval assumes that any timing reaction error can be ignored as it should be the same at both ends of the timimg section. For long distances the timing error due to operator 'reaction' and 'anticipation' times can indeed be irrelevant, over short distances the assmuption in the type approval is a false one.
In essence it means that it does not work in your favour.
Following comments to original poster.
Just playing around with your figs based on the distance at that site.
@ 70 the timimg would have to be > 10 seconds.
@ 95 the timing would be around the 7.5 mark.
@ 90 the timing would have to be around 7.9
Just observations, listen to what jith will tell you, and make your mind up what to do.
You could go for a Newton hearing, ie admit speeding but not to 101.7 and the CPS might go for that.
Edited by Flat in Fifth on Sunday 23 July 19:01
You could go for a Newton hearing, ie admit speeding but not to 101.7 and the CPS might go for that.[/quote]
My Bro did exactly that when he was Vascar'd, he argued the toss in court that the copper was not using the equipment properly (it was dark) and accepted 3 points for speeding instead of something a lot worse (alledged 90+ in a 60)
My Bro did exactly that when he was Vascar'd, he argued the toss in court that the copper was not using the equipment properly (it was dark) and accepted 3 points for speeding instead of something a lot worse (alledged 90+ in a 60)
Hi,
My advice would be that from my experience with dealing with specialist lawyers and defending myself I do know that the VASCAR system can be flawed.
The reason this is is that as oppose to a machine accurately recording the start/finish points of a test, it is the operator themselves doing the start and end points for the timing. As it has already been mentioned over a relatively short distance such as seven seconds, the operator can through error or 'bias' effect the outcome of the test by making the start slightly late and anticipating the end point.
Even 'average' reaction times of around a quarter of a second can affect your speed of up to 10 mph in such a situation. This alone would have put you in three point and £60 territory. There is also the factor that although I hasten to add that the huge majority of police officers collect evidence in an honest way, it is quite a unique situation where you will be convicted by an officers actions which could be flawed in error or on purpose yet the evidence at first look seems to be the outcome of a machine. All the machine does is calculate the speed from the time and the distance entered into it.
There are a few good lawyers out there including the most famous one who specialise in this kind of case. Although it is possible to defend yourself in such a case, for this one I would recommend a lawyer. There is the option for a Newton hearing, or basically your lawyer will go back and forth with the CPS pre-trial to negotiate a speed you *will* admit to and thus the CPS will not need to prove their case. Your lawyer should also argue that the punishment should be discounted as you have pleaded guilty at the first opportunity the correct offer was made to you.
There is also a bit of case law which if you are luck does provide a significant loophope if the paperwork for the case has not been prepared properly. Knowing the CPS it most likely wont be. Your lawyer will have to use the case law in court, so you wont know if it will work until then but it will discount the evidence against you. I wont divulge what it is on here but if you speak to a good motoring solicitor he should know what it is, if he doesnt get a new one. Mail me if you want to confirm what it is!
My advice would be that from my experience with dealing with specialist lawyers and defending myself I do know that the VASCAR system can be flawed.
The reason this is is that as oppose to a machine accurately recording the start/finish points of a test, it is the operator themselves doing the start and end points for the timing. As it has already been mentioned over a relatively short distance such as seven seconds, the operator can through error or 'bias' effect the outcome of the test by making the start slightly late and anticipating the end point.
Even 'average' reaction times of around a quarter of a second can affect your speed of up to 10 mph in such a situation. This alone would have put you in three point and £60 territory. There is also the factor that although I hasten to add that the huge majority of police officers collect evidence in an honest way, it is quite a unique situation where you will be convicted by an officers actions which could be flawed in error or on purpose yet the evidence at first look seems to be the outcome of a machine. All the machine does is calculate the speed from the time and the distance entered into it.
There are a few good lawyers out there including the most famous one who specialise in this kind of case. Although it is possible to defend yourself in such a case, for this one I would recommend a lawyer. There is the option for a Newton hearing, or basically your lawyer will go back and forth with the CPS pre-trial to negotiate a speed you *will* admit to and thus the CPS will not need to prove their case. Your lawyer should also argue that the punishment should be discounted as you have pleaded guilty at the first opportunity the correct offer was made to you.
There is also a bit of case law which if you are luck does provide a significant loophope if the paperwork for the case has not been prepared properly. Knowing the CPS it most likely wont be. Your lawyer will have to use the case law in court, so you wont know if it will work until then but it will discount the evidence against you. I wont divulge what it is on here but if you speak to a good motoring solicitor he should know what it is, if he doesnt get a new one. Mail me if you want to confirm what it is!
Y4MER said:
Nick Freeman, Just put a call in to them,What ever the cost I need to safe my licence as I do think in this case the data is incorrect.
Thanks.Y4MER
Thanks.Y4MER
I agree. Although £4000 a day is a lot of money, its not much if you would lose your job any other way.
He will certainly know of the case law I spoke about earlier, and I would put your chances as very good.
Please let us know how it goes as this is an interesting case.
Good luck!
I think you'll find this is one of the best debates on VASCAR ever.
Had the fur really flying!!
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=141324&r=2002626&hm=40965#2002626
Had the fur really flying!!
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=141324&r=2002626&hm=40965#2002626
When I got to my destination I wrote everything down that was said by Mr bib and myself, at one point he did say your estimated speed was 101.4, Estimated in the English dictionary " Estimate usually implies a subjective and somewhat inexact judgment: difficult to estimate the possible results in advance."
Y4MER said:
When I got to my destination I wrote everything down that was said by Mr bib and myself, at one point he did say your estimated speed was 101.4, Estimated in the English dictionary " Estimate usually implies a subjective and somewhat inexact judgment: difficult to estimate the possible results in advance."
I would say 'estimated' is completely unsatisfactory. What you need is 'measured with reasonable accuracy' - especially if your job could be at stake. Good luck with this one.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
FiF and justinp are correct. Vascar especially over a small distance is not accurate.
101.4 in 7.00 sec is 347 yds. An error of 0.25s is error of 3.5 mile/h ie if it had been actually 7.25s you'd have been doing 97.9 mile/h.
Because of the low accuracy of the reading the ridiculous 3-figure precision with which Vascar speeds are quoted should not be accepted. Your speed is measured at 98..105 mile/h.
I defended myself sucessfully in Exeter several years ago against a charge of 101.2 using the manufacturer ( Meggitt Controls) data sheet which showed that the speed by vascar was accurate to +/- 2 mile/h if used in accordance with guidelines - therefore my speed was 99.2..104.2 and because of the uncertainty my >100 speed which was all they cared about was not proven beyond reasonable doubt.
Officer was unhappy with it and was in coversation afterwards most confused between precision and accuracy.
101.4 in 7.00 sec is 347 yds. An error of 0.25s is error of 3.5 mile/h ie if it had been actually 7.25s you'd have been doing 97.9 mile/h.
Because of the low accuracy of the reading the ridiculous 3-figure precision with which Vascar speeds are quoted should not be accepted. Your speed is measured at 98..105 mile/h.
I defended myself sucessfully in Exeter several years ago against a charge of 101.2 using the manufacturer ( Meggitt Controls) data sheet which showed that the speed by vascar was accurate to +/- 2 mile/h if used in accordance with guidelines - therefore my speed was 99.2..104.2 and because of the uncertainty my >100 speed which was all they cared about was not proven beyond reasonable doubt.
Officer was unhappy with it and was in coversation afterwards most confused between precision and accuracy.
Hope all goes well with the case, where did you get done? I frequent the M1, M18 A1 triangle daily, and would like to know where he timed you, was he on the M18 sliproad at Maltby? And chased you from there?
Thanks in advance, wouldnt like to be caught at the safe speeds I travel at when its a bit empty.
Thanks in advance, wouldnt like to be caught at the safe speeds I travel at when its a bit empty.
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