Road positioning in bends
Discussion
Hi all,
I'm currently on the IAM course, and am finding most parts of it informative, logical and a compliment to my driving (even if some techniques aren't always used
), but one part I cannot completely comprehend is the positioning of yourself and your vehicle through corners. I understand the theory in how hanging out on the edge of the corner gives you better visibility through it and hence earlier warning of hazards etc - hugging the dotted white line for a left, and the solid line for a right hander.
My observer tries to get me to hold the white line until completely round and on the exit of the corner, then to move back to the middle (or right if tackling a left next). I am uncomfortable with this in that I am placing my car (with new unmarked 18" wheels
) closer to the edge of the road than I am comfortable with, picking up all the rubbish that is left by other road users who do not take the same line through the corner, whilst trying to look ahead for the next hazard/limit point/road sign etc.
I am worried that my preoccupation with not knowing the exact width of the car will lead to concentrating more on how close I am to the edge of the road and take more attention away from looking ahead, planning and the rest of it. I anxious that this could lead to me failing for "not seeing the cyclist pulling out because I was looking at the edge of the road too much" or something similar.
People's thoughts and/or advise would be appreciated.
Thanks
Andy
I'm currently on the IAM course, and am finding most parts of it informative, logical and a compliment to my driving (even if some techniques aren't always used
), but one part I cannot completely comprehend is the positioning of yourself and your vehicle through corners. I understand the theory in how hanging out on the edge of the corner gives you better visibility through it and hence earlier warning of hazards etc - hugging the dotted white line for a left, and the solid line for a right hander. My observer tries to get me to hold the white line until completely round and on the exit of the corner, then to move back to the middle (or right if tackling a left next). I am uncomfortable with this in that I am placing my car (with new unmarked 18" wheels
) closer to the edge of the road than I am comfortable with, picking up all the rubbish that is left by other road users who do not take the same line through the corner, whilst trying to look ahead for the next hazard/limit point/road sign etc. I am worried that my preoccupation with not knowing the exact width of the car will lead to concentrating more on how close I am to the edge of the road and take more attention away from looking ahead, planning and the rest of it. I anxious that this could lead to me failing for "not seeing the cyclist pulling out because I was looking at the edge of the road too much" or something similar.
People's thoughts and/or advise would be appreciated.
Thanks
Andy
It is very common for people to initially come off line & take a shallow one.
They do this for a variety of reasons, common ones being, too fast & lack of confidence in steering. A lot tend to put too much steering on too early an end up in longer bends coming off line, returning to it, coming off it, returning to it, throughout the bend. Looks a bit like a snakes trail.
If there is a lot of rubbish nearside there is nothing to stop you sacrificing some of that positioning for safety, after all we position for (in order of importance) S.I.R.
Safety.
Information (vision).
Reduce cornering forces.
You sacrifice lower ones in the list for ones above it if needed & you can only do the lower ones in the list if it doesn't compromise any above & they still apply.
You shouldn't come off the line until you have clear vision of both sides of the road on the exit side. Where you have no lateral vision on approach, then you will only get that vision so late that by the time you start to increase steering to come off the strong line, you will already effectively have completed the bend before that steering takes effect. If we come off earlier where we can't see both sides of the road fully yet, we will be heading towards a loss of vision where it is likley oncomers will be (they will after all be positioning towards the crown for their left hand bend). In such circumstances if either/both of you are too fast, then that positioning may end up being critical.
If we can't fully apex (because it's not safe) the next best safe option is to hold the strong nearside line. I understand that full apexing is something that the IAM may not like at all (speak to your observer about it).
Make sure you aren't drawn to gazing at the kerb line (you'll have a tendency to go toward what you look at & hit it). Look where you want to go, just keep a feel with peripheral vision for where the kerb line is. As you grow in confidence & accuracy you will get better at holding a tighter line to the kerb without fear of hitting it.
The time we would come off the line & only do a partial apex (take the bend through the middle of the road) is where we have a number of shallow bends that we can straight line as we can see both sides of the road through them, leading to a tighter bend that we apply the system to. Effectively applying the system to the further more difficult hazard through the series that are not a problem because of the vision available.
Again the IAM may not like/teach this kind of thing though (speak to the observer), because of the potential consequences of offsiding/apexing incorrectly. You'd be surprised the amount of experienced drivers who get offside positioning & apexing all wrong, so they may take the view that it's not to be done.
They do this for a variety of reasons, common ones being, too fast & lack of confidence in steering. A lot tend to put too much steering on too early an end up in longer bends coming off line, returning to it, coming off it, returning to it, throughout the bend. Looks a bit like a snakes trail.
If there is a lot of rubbish nearside there is nothing to stop you sacrificing some of that positioning for safety, after all we position for (in order of importance) S.I.R.
Safety.
Information (vision).
Reduce cornering forces.
You sacrifice lower ones in the list for ones above it if needed & you can only do the lower ones in the list if it doesn't compromise any above & they still apply.
You shouldn't come off the line until you have clear vision of both sides of the road on the exit side. Where you have no lateral vision on approach, then you will only get that vision so late that by the time you start to increase steering to come off the strong line, you will already effectively have completed the bend before that steering takes effect. If we come off earlier where we can't see both sides of the road fully yet, we will be heading towards a loss of vision where it is likley oncomers will be (they will after all be positioning towards the crown for their left hand bend). In such circumstances if either/both of you are too fast, then that positioning may end up being critical.
If we can't fully apex (because it's not safe) the next best safe option is to hold the strong nearside line. I understand that full apexing is something that the IAM may not like at all (speak to your observer about it).
Make sure you aren't drawn to gazing at the kerb line (you'll have a tendency to go toward what you look at & hit it). Look where you want to go, just keep a feel with peripheral vision for where the kerb line is. As you grow in confidence & accuracy you will get better at holding a tighter line to the kerb without fear of hitting it.
The time we would come off the line & only do a partial apex (take the bend through the middle of the road) is where we have a number of shallow bends that we can straight line as we can see both sides of the road through them, leading to a tighter bend that we apply the system to. Effectively applying the system to the further more difficult hazard through the series that are not a problem because of the vision available.
Again the IAM may not like/teach this kind of thing though (speak to the observer), because of the potential consequences of offsiding/apexing incorrectly. You'd be surprised the amount of experienced drivers who get offside positioning & apexing all wrong, so they may take the view that it's not to be done.
Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 26th July 07:09
I've always been taught to hug the middle line... gives you better vision and means you don't apex a corner too early and end up drifting onto the other side of the road during 'spirited driving'
If you're uncomfortable with what you're being taught to do, my advice would be not to do it!
If you're uncomfortable with what you're being taught to do, my advice would be not to do it!
Edited by MrKipling43 on Wednesday 26th July 09:39
MrKipling43 said:
If you're uncomfortable with what you're being taught to do, my advice would be not to do it!
If one takes that view one would never do anything differently...
Instead - insist on understanding the full logic behind anything you are asked to do. Get an explanation until it makes sense.
VH: Great explanation. Our IAM group always says when it comes to positioning:
Never compromise Safety for Position.
Never compromise Legality for Position.
Only position when it is to your advantage.
Which fits in with what you are saying I think...
I have a different problem with this approach to positioning. It's okay on right handers where you are hugging the kerb but on left handers you're out in the middle of the road close to the white line. This is precisely where oncoming traffic is who are not adopting the same attitude and are cutting the corner, frequently transgressing the white line. I feel it significantly reduces margin for error and often leads to mid-corner steering corrections.
profstoff said:
I have a different problem with this approach to positioning. It's okay on right handers where you are hugging the kerb but on left handers you're out in the middle of the road close to the white line. This is precisely where oncoming traffic is who are not adopting the same attitude and are cutting the corner, frequently transgressing the white line. I feel it significantly reduces margin for error and often leads to mid-corner steering corrections.
Hello there profstoff.
If you apply S I R (see Vonhosens explanation, superb again as usual) to every single bend, it makes it easier.
Assuming you are approaching a left hander, tight, with little visibility around/into it, and you had no earlier chance of getting vision. Lets make it worse and say it is uphill.
Your thought process would be along the lines of "I cannot see into or through the bend. It is reasonable to assume something may be there, either static or travelling towards me. It it is travelling towards, it is likely to cut the centre line, and even if it doesn't, a position towards my centre line would put me into possible conflict. Therefore I will position the vehicle more towards the Left Hand side of the bend, as I am putting safety (S) BEFORE information (I). I will have the speed as appropriate.
Obviously that thought process only takes milliseconds, and if you are me, it also includes thinking about picking the children up and remembering to buy runner beans for his Lordship's tea. However, that apeart, the main thing is that Safety came before Information.
I'm sure Vonhosen can explain it much better than that, but I hope you get the general drift.
Regards
Sally
The aim of the game so to speak, is to get the best possible vision of the road ahead, your position shouldn't compromise your safety.
If a corner is so blind that you can't see something coming the other way don't sit out too near to the white line (left hander) and take the corner slow (you'll have reduced visibilty).
I'd suggest getting out of your head, 'I must sit left for a right and right for a left', use your natural instinct to get the best possible vision, with the best compromise on speed for a safe margin.
If a corner is so blind that you can't see something coming the other way don't sit out too near to the white line (left hander) and take the corner slow (you'll have reduced visibilty).
I'd suggest getting out of your head, 'I must sit left for a right and right for a left', use your natural instinct to get the best possible vision, with the best compromise on speed for a safe margin.
For right handers do not get so far over to the left that you are in the gravel/mud/standing water/pot holes as this will seriously compromise safety due to reduced grip - just move to what is reasonable.
For left handers, by positioning towards the centre, you increase your view around the bend e.g. broken down car on your side, oncoming vehicle on other, but also present yourself to the oncoming vehicle slightly earlier, thus giving them more warning and more time to react to your presence.
Either way you should not be hugging the centre or lane edge marker all of the way around but should be trying to straighten the bend.
For left handers, by positioning towards the centre, you increase your view around the bend e.g. broken down car on your side, oncoming vehicle on other, but also present yourself to the oncoming vehicle slightly earlier, thus giving them more warning and more time to react to your presence.
Either way you should not be hugging the centre or lane edge marker all of the way around but should be trying to straighten the bend.
I disagree slightly with the posts above re. positioning towards the middle of the road being "unsafe"
I take a position near the centreline, or over it where possible, to give better vision through the corner. If on-coming traffic is trespassing into my lane, then this psychologically pushes them back onto their own side. I can then slide back onto my side of the road and everyone's happy!
Obviously if the bend is so sharp that you risk not having time to return to your own side safely, then you might choose to stay in tight to the kerb.
I take a position near the centreline, or over it where possible, to give better vision through the corner. If on-coming traffic is trespassing into my lane, then this psychologically pushes them back onto their own side. I can then slide back onto my side of the road and everyone's happy!
Obviously if the bend is so sharp that you risk not having time to return to your own side safely, then you might choose to stay in tight to the kerb.
Simply put
The narrower the road & less vision you have, the more likely you are to sacrifice position towards the centre on left hand bends, on the grounds of safety.
I will generally be looking to always be in a position on the road that offers best vision, provided it is safe, legal & is not going to unduely concern or mislead others.
I will only reduce forces acting on the vehicle by the maximum I can (ie using the whole road) where I first have the vision to do so safely.
The narrower the road & less vision you have, the more likely you are to sacrifice position towards the centre on left hand bends, on the grounds of safety.
I will generally be looking to always be in a position on the road that offers best vision, provided it is safe, legal & is not going to unduely concern or mislead others.
I will only reduce forces acting on the vehicle by the maximum I can (ie using the whole road) where I first have the vision to do so safely.
Good advice on this thread.
If you are having difficulty in visualising where the edge of your nearside tyres are on right hand bends, you could try the following:
Find a straight (safe!) piece of road with a straight line painted on the nearside. Even a car park will do. Manoevre your car so that the outer edge of your nearside tyres are in the middle of the line. From your normal driving position, look forward to see where the line appears to cross the lower edge of your windscreen or windscreen wipers. You could even mark this position somehow.
Thereafter, anything that's to the left of that position is left of your nearside tyres, and anything to its right is to the right of the nearside tyres.
This is obviously specific to each vehicle and any given seating position.
If you are having difficulty in visualising where the edge of your nearside tyres are on right hand bends, you could try the following:
Find a straight (safe!) piece of road with a straight line painted on the nearside. Even a car park will do. Manoevre your car so that the outer edge of your nearside tyres are in the middle of the line. From your normal driving position, look forward to see where the line appears to cross the lower edge of your windscreen or windscreen wipers. You could even mark this position somehow.
Thereafter, anything that's to the left of that position is left of your nearside tyres, and anything to its right is to the right of the nearside tyres.
This is obviously specific to each vehicle and any given seating position.
HPC_bod said:
Good advice on this thread.
If you are having difficulty in visualising where the edge of your nearside tyres are on right hand bends, you could try the following:
Find a straight (safe!) piece of road with a straight line painted on the nearside. Even a car park will do. Manoevre your car so that the outer edge of your nearside tyres are in the middle of the line. From your normal driving position, look forward to see where the line appears to cross the lower edge of your windscreen or windscreen wipers. You could even mark this position somehow.
Thereafter, anything that's to the left of that position is left of your nearside tyres, and anything to its right is to the right of the nearside tyres.
This is obviously specific to each vehicle and any given seating position.
If you are having difficulty in visualising where the edge of your nearside tyres are on right hand bends, you could try the following:
Find a straight (safe!) piece of road with a straight line painted on the nearside. Even a car park will do. Manoevre your car so that the outer edge of your nearside tyres are in the middle of the line. From your normal driving position, look forward to see where the line appears to cross the lower edge of your windscreen or windscreen wipers. You could even mark this position somehow.
Thereafter, anything that's to the left of that position is left of your nearside tyres, and anything to its right is to the right of the nearside tyres.
This is obviously specific to each vehicle and any given seating position.
I appreciate what you're doing there, but on a RH bend the reference mark will not be in the same place as it appears on a straight road, and the discrepancy will be increased on a tightish bend, will it not?
Sorry to be awkward - am I misunderstanding something?
....or is the radius of most bends deemed sufficiently large that it does not affect the issue?
I must say though that some aid in maintaining a tidy NS position on RH bends would be welcome, as it is something I'm not always very confident about.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Thanks everybody for your replies. Given me some more to think about.
What I'm trying to weigh up (aside from damaging my wheels) is: is it worth positioning myself in a more visible point of the bend, but where more of the "marbles" are and hence giving less grip?
Basically what should come first, grip or position/vision? Obviosly if grip is so bad there is only one answer, but what if you're unsure? I.e. if it looks grippy but is actually not as much as you thought?
Am I making sense to anyone? Not sure if I make sense to myself, but this is as sensical as I could make it during my lunch break!! Lol
Thanks all,
Andy
What I'm trying to weigh up (aside from damaging my wheels) is: is it worth positioning myself in a more visible point of the bend, but where more of the "marbles" are and hence giving less grip?
Basically what should come first, grip or position/vision? Obviosly if grip is so bad there is only one answer, but what if you're unsure? I.e. if it looks grippy but is actually not as much as you thought?
Am I making sense to anyone? Not sure if I make sense to myself, but this is as sensical as I could make it during my lunch break!! Lol
Thanks all,
Andy
There's getting over and there's getting over. Most of the road will be clear of marbles as there are plenty of bigger vehicles which require the full width of the road and hence will keep the path clear.
Personally I think you are worrying about this unduly. As I said before, forget your position on the road, just try and get the clearest view and it'll become natural.
If you start thinking about where your wheels are, you're getting back into learner driver mode of looking at the end of the bonnet and trying to keep it inside the white line but off the curb. Try it, drive down a straight road and keep where you think is the correct place by look at the end of the bonnet, it's almost impossible. To some extent that's what you are doing at the moment whilst trying to tackle your bend position.
Just my opinion and meant in the nicest of ways!
Personally I think you are worrying about this unduly. As I said before, forget your position on the road, just try and get the clearest view and it'll become natural.
If you start thinking about where your wheels are, you're getting back into learner driver mode of looking at the end of the bonnet and trying to keep it inside the white line but off the curb. Try it, drive down a straight road and keep where you think is the correct place by look at the end of the bonnet, it's almost impossible. To some extent that's what you are doing at the moment whilst trying to tackle your bend position.
Just my opinion and meant in the nicest of ways!
Edited by woodytvr on Thursday 27th July 14:35
In response to Triple's question: Yes, you're right but the error is not that big for the corners where speed is higher, and it also errs on the side of safety, so I would not think you'd have a problem there.
Regarding grip, you would not generally position for improved vision if that compromised your grip, since compromised grip would detract from safety. The exception might be where speed is low and you are willing to accept a lower grip factor in favour of seeing a little more, but I think those would be rare occasions. In any case, they could be justified by the argument that if you really need that extra vision then it's a safety factor, which is always the top priority.
Re the last post concerning positioning, I'm not advocating a fixed stare at the bonnet to see where the line is. Rather, it's just a quick way of gauging where you are in relation to the edge of the road or another feature if you're feeling unsure. Your vision should remain primrily at the limit point and beyond (the cross view, in a bend), if the vision is available beyond.
Regarding grip, you would not generally position for improved vision if that compromised your grip, since compromised grip would detract from safety. The exception might be where speed is low and you are willing to accept a lower grip factor in favour of seeing a little more, but I think those would be rare occasions. In any case, they could be justified by the argument that if you really need that extra vision then it's a safety factor, which is always the top priority.
Re the last post concerning positioning, I'm not advocating a fixed stare at the bonnet to see where the line is. Rather, it's just a quick way of gauging where you are in relation to the edge of the road or another feature if you're feeling unsure. Your vision should remain primrily at the limit point and beyond (the cross view, in a bend), if the vision is available beyond.
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