AutoCAR - Cayman/Z4M/Sagaris
Discussion
Seems TVR build quality isn't any better - several things playing up/not functioning on the test car.
Result:
Cayman 1st.
Z4M/Sagaris equal 2nd - buy whichever floats your boat.
One thing I disagreed with was the comfort and driving environment comments - they didn't think the TVR was up to much. Compared to the plastic fantastic of the Z4 and the OK but not spectacular of the Cayman they were plain wrong. The TVR is reasonably spacious, comfy, well enough equipped and nice to ride in.
Result:
Cayman 1st.
Z4M/Sagaris equal 2nd - buy whichever floats your boat.
One thing I disagreed with was the comfort and driving environment comments - they didn't think the TVR was up to much. Compared to the plastic fantastic of the Z4 and the OK but not spectacular of the Cayman they were plain wrong. The TVR is reasonably spacious, comfy, well enough equipped and nice to ride in.
The ever-changing claimed power output of the Sagaris is interesting...now down to 375bhp 'in the interests of coping with variable fuel quality'.... or variable acceleration test results maybe, if the low ratio diff etc isn't fitted!
A faint whiff of b
t?
Has the engine spec or management changed at all, or is this merely a further reality check from 386 bhp, reduced from the original 406bhp apparently because it was shown by Evo mag and others to be way out?
Or have Autocar misunderstood ( at one point they do say it has a 4.3 litre engine - long memories of the 4.3 Griff or a typo?!!)
A faint whiff of b
t? Has the engine spec or management changed at all, or is this merely a further reality check from 386 bhp, reduced from the original 406bhp apparently because it was shown by Evo mag and others to be way out?
Or have Autocar misunderstood ( at one point they do say it has a 4.3 litre engine - long memories of the 4.3 Griff or a typo?!!)
On driving experience they clearly loved it and it seems it outhandled the BMW easily and on some aspects was ahead of the Porsche.If only the quality had been better I think we might have seen a joint first.
Comments on cabin and living with the car were totally inaccurate.
So Porsche wins because its softer,easier to drive and has two boots.Wow-real sports car then!
Comments on cabin and living with the car were totally inaccurate.
So Porsche wins because its softer,easier to drive and has two boots.Wow-real sports car then!
Kind of ironic that. The Sagaris they tested is no longer much like the same spec as when they first tested one. The suspension has changed and is now softer, more compliant with a greater ride height...RPA care to highlight your experience pls?
The exhaust have changed twice (another irony being the original exhausts were actually down on power compared to the later exhausts - oops, sorry did the factory not let that one slip) and the sound from the back exits is totally different. Actually, that's interesting, they only got the tick in the box from the man from the ministry at the start of this week, for the new exhaust system! Did Autocar even mention the new exhaust system, I cant remember.
...and please, can somebody tell me WTF is with this "smells of resin" lark? Do I have the exception car? Ive only been able to smell leather when I got in mine and to be honest these days I presume the "new leather" smell has long since worn off, except it is the first thing everybody comments on when they get in my car or even if they poke their head into the hatchback when I have opened it up! Nobody has ever said "I can smell glue."
Whilst Im on my soapbox I might aswell ask why Autocar have decided to change their mind and view the Sagaris as a daily car? As something relatively civilised and not the firebreathing Noble rival, but suddenly the sedate Z4M and Cayman? Considering Ive read all the articles written about the Sagaris and out all that has been said about the car in print, there is only the EVO piece which mentions that the Sagaris can do a GT role and my piece for Auto-journals, it is a bit of a cheek by Autocar! In the interests of fairness then, why dont we try and see how a Z4M and Cayman stack up against a Noble or 911GT3 or turbo shall we? Lets see them try and cover those bases also!
Im offering no defence for the loose door handle/pull or the fibreglass and sound insulation though, TVR just being inept.
DJ Ever So Slightly Pi**sed Off This Week C
The exhaust have changed twice (another irony being the original exhausts were actually down on power compared to the later exhausts - oops, sorry did the factory not let that one slip) and the sound from the back exits is totally different. Actually, that's interesting, they only got the tick in the box from the man from the ministry at the start of this week, for the new exhaust system! Did Autocar even mention the new exhaust system, I cant remember.
...and please, can somebody tell me WTF is with this "smells of resin" lark? Do I have the exception car? Ive only been able to smell leather when I got in mine and to be honest these days I presume the "new leather" smell has long since worn off, except it is the first thing everybody comments on when they get in my car or even if they poke their head into the hatchback when I have opened it up! Nobody has ever said "I can smell glue."
Whilst Im on my soapbox I might aswell ask why Autocar have decided to change their mind and view the Sagaris as a daily car? As something relatively civilised and not the firebreathing Noble rival, but suddenly the sedate Z4M and Cayman? Considering Ive read all the articles written about the Sagaris and out all that has been said about the car in print, there is only the EVO piece which mentions that the Sagaris can do a GT role and my piece for Auto-journals, it is a bit of a cheek by Autocar! In the interests of fairness then, why dont we try and see how a Z4M and Cayman stack up against a Noble or 911GT3 or turbo shall we? Lets see them try and cover those bases also!
Im offering no defence for the loose door handle/pull or the fibreglass and sound insulation though, TVR just being inept.
DJ Ever So Slightly Pi**sed Off This Week C
Maybe TVR should inject some kind of plastic and rubber aroma into the body molds so they smell like Porsches and BMWs. TVRs do have a certain aroma, which I don't think is glue/resin, but I could be wrong. Maybe I'm right and it is a lack of plastics and rubber that allows other smells to exist. Like DJC its not something that has ever remotely bothered me or that I've even noticed. I smell the leather and thats about it.
As for the exhaust changes - interesting. I wonder how the rear exit jobbies will be on power/sound effects.
I can't believe the engine only makes 375hp. I'm sure torque must be good though.
As for the exhaust changes - interesting. I wonder how the rear exit jobbies will be on power/sound effects.
I can't believe the engine only makes 375hp. I'm sure torque must be good though.
Only a few short comments from a T350 owner.
Our's is two years old and still only smells of leather, which I like.
If I wanted a compliant, soft-ride everyday car I'd by a Jag.
I don't want more sound insulation, for God's sake that totally misses the point of a TVR.
No other production car in the world feels and sounds like a Tiv, be it Sag or not and long may this remain so. If they become more "civilised" then I for one will not buy a new one again. IMHO that pushing up the price and sanitising the marque is entirely the wrong business strategy.
Just a thought
Oh and BTW, who gives a toss what Evo, Autocar, Clarkson et al say? Tiv owners are quite capable of making up their own minds.
Our's is two years old and still only smells of leather, which I like.
If I wanted a compliant, soft-ride everyday car I'd by a Jag.
I don't want more sound insulation, for God's sake that totally misses the point of a TVR.
No other production car in the world feels and sounds like a Tiv, be it Sag or not and long may this remain so. If they become more "civilised" then I for one will not buy a new one again. IMHO that pushing up the price and sanitising the marque is entirely the wrong business strategy.
Just a thought
Oh and BTW, who gives a toss what Evo, Autocar, Clarkson et al say? Tiv owners are quite capable of making up their own minds.
If there's any 'chemical smell' in a TVR, it's glue REMOVER not glue - and you have to catch one fresh out of the factory to 'enjoy' the high. It's gone by the time a car has been PDI'd.
My 8 year old Cerbera still reeks of leather.
Good point Targarama - why don't the press ever mention the smell of other cars which is invariably of plastic/rubber?
My 8 year old Cerbera still reeks of leather.
Good point Targarama - why don't the press ever mention the smell of other cars which is invariably of plastic/rubber?
I love that resin smell - it reminds me of picking up my first Tamora when it was brand spanking new - a happy day in my life! Occasionally get a whiff on hot days, but you never get that smell again once the car is "aired off".
Motoring journalists who prattle on about it are just imbeciles looking for something negative to write about. In fact I'm going to write to Autocar about it, right now!
Motoring journalists who prattle on about it are just imbeciles looking for something negative to write about. In fact I'm going to write to Autocar about it, right now!
DJC said:
Whilst Im on my soapbox I might aswell ask why Autocar have decided to change their mind and view the Sagaris as a daily car? As something relatively civilised and not the firebreathing Noble rival, but suddenly the sedate Z4M and Cayman? Considering Ive read all the articles written about the Sagaris and out all that has been said about the car in print, there is only the EVO piece which mentions that the Sagaris can do a GT role and my piece for Auto-journals, it is a bit of a cheek by Autocar! In the interests of fairness then, why dont we try and see how a Z4M and Cayman stack up against a Noble or 911GT3 or turbo shall we? Lets see them try and cover those bases also!
Yes it did very well in this 'alternate' sensible role! Trackwise, I remain very impressed with it's several neck-and-neck performances in mag & TV tests against the Noble GTO3R, which has no luggage space etc.
So I'll have one when I let the T350 go, as it's still the top practical weekend / very fast track car IMO.
read the article last night. i'm sick of Porsche winning every group test Autocar do, i've always thought that if you buy a 911/Cayman then you have no imagination, it seems like the default choice now when buying a fast car. the thing is though that the equivalent TVR's have always been cheaper than any comparable 911/Boxster etc and they are much faster, look so much better, feel more special and if you drive a TVR instead of a Porsche people won't think you are a "yuppy prat"
i respect Porsche and BMW immensely but i would still choose the Sagaris over the Cayman and Z4M any day, its a real sportscar for real men who enjoy the real thrill of driving.
i respect Porsche and BMW immensely but i would still choose the Sagaris over the Cayman and Z4M any day, its a real sportscar for real men who enjoy the real thrill of driving.
Edited by forthright MC on Thursday 27th July 11:08
DJC said:
Kind of ironic that. The Sagaris they tested is no longer much like the same spec as when they first tested one. The suspension has changed and is now softer, more compliant with a greater ride height...RPA care to highlight your experience pls?
Drove an '06 Sagaris for a week - very different kettle of fish. As DJC says, softer and lighter at the rear, and nowhere near as comfortable as the early '05 set up. Almost a Mk II Sagaris: if you have an 06, and haven't driven an 05, do it if you get the chance. The difference is immediately apparent.
rpa.janwell said:
DJC said:
Kind of ironic that. The Sagaris they tested is no longer much like the same spec as when they first tested one. The suspension has changed and is now softer, more compliant with a greater ride height...RPA care to highlight your experience pls?
Drove an '06 Sagaris for a week - very different kettle of fish. As DJC says, softer and lighter at the rear, and nowhere near as comfortable as the early '05 set up. Almost a Mk II Sagaris: if you have an 06, and haven't driven an 05, do it if you get the chance. The difference is immediately apparent.
Softer at the rear?
doesn't sounds good for the rear diffuser crunchability. I've driven a few 05 cars and thought the suspension was just about spot on. Generally slightly less fidgetty.I guess AutoCAR are thinking of what the general public wants to buy. Something that your average Megane Scenic driver can punt along quickly without damaging hedgegrows. Most of us are petrolheads who like a bit of spice with our fast punting, thus our verdict would be different to the AutoCAR public verdict.
I wonder if the personal verdicts of the testers would be the same? I think they'd choose the BMW or TVR depending on their personal taste.
You have to admit, buying a 55k loaded TVR is a bigger risk than a 45k loaded Z4M Coupe.
I wonder if the personal verdicts of the testers would be the same? I think they'd choose the BMW or TVR depending on their personal taste.
You have to admit, buying a 55k loaded TVR is a bigger risk than a 45k loaded Z4M Coupe.
The glue smell thing is strange. Lotus don't seem to get this and my friend's exige is noticeably more resiny and less leathery than my eau de Sagaris. I personally don't mind the resin smell as it reminds me of a powerboat but my Sagaris definitely doesn't smell of it.
it's really getting boring and predictable when a porsche is in a test. I know at least the mid-engined ones handle well and are well made but even a top 911 is very 'mass produced'inside with placcy vents and plenty of shared switchgear.
I'm sure there is some sort of racket going on where if a hack is rude about a car the makers refuse to let him test them again or something. Ferrari have been fellated for years, even when they've made awful cars, mainly because a ferrari on the front cover will sell magazines.
The trouble is, the car mags do have a lot of influence. I bought an F355 after being influenced by the glowing reports it recieved. Maybe in contrast to the appauling thing it replaced (348) it was a big improvement but against any other measurement (other than showing off) it was a pile of crap!
And if you think TVR exaggerate their horsepower figures go out in a 355. It's like a milk float compared to a Sagaris!
it's really getting boring and predictable when a porsche is in a test. I know at least the mid-engined ones handle well and are well made but even a top 911 is very 'mass produced'inside with placcy vents and plenty of shared switchgear.
I'm sure there is some sort of racket going on where if a hack is rude about a car the makers refuse to let him test them again or something. Ferrari have been fellated for years, even when they've made awful cars, mainly because a ferrari on the front cover will sell magazines.
The trouble is, the car mags do have a lot of influence. I bought an F355 after being influenced by the glowing reports it recieved. Maybe in contrast to the appauling thing it replaced (348) it was a big improvement but against any other measurement (other than showing off) it was a pile of crap!
And if you think TVR exaggerate their horsepower figures go out in a 355. It's like a milk float compared to a Sagaris!
Has anybody worked out why the article includes a picture of one of the drivers (Looks like Garth off Waynes World...!) holding the Sagaris bonnet? There's no reference to this in the text, just a picture showing that the service bonnet comes off, it's not damaged, so it didn't fly off, so why show the picture?
rpa.janwell said:
Drove an '06 Sagaris for a week - very different kettle of fish. As DJC says, softer and lighter at the rear, and nowhere near as comfortable as the early '05 set up. Almost a Mk II Sagaris: if you have an 06, and haven't driven an 05, do it if you get the chance. The difference is immediately apparent.
Interesting.
Neill A. told me that a lot of work went into the original Sagaris set-up, using much track and road testing with Bilstein, aided by computer analysis and top-level set-up engineers making tweaks to damping and bumpstops that the computer didn't predict would make a difference but could be felt.
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