Fines etc.....
Discussion
With reference to the potential illegality of some speeding fines, being that they are imposed without the court process having been followed...
Does this apply also to parking tickets?
What about other fines and penalties...?
Private land etc....?
What aspect of the law are these loopholes based on?
gorvid said:
With reference to the potential illegality of some speeding fines, being that they are imposed without the court process having been followed...
Does this apply also to parking tickets?
What about other fines and penalties...?
Private land etc....?
What aspect of the law are these loopholes based on?
What speeding fines are imposed without the court process being followed ?
vonhosen said:
What speeding fines are imposed without the court process being followed ?
I may not be making sense here Von...
I mean the thing recently where the fines are issued on the spot or without prosecution...
These so called letters that can "get you off" fines etc...etc...
PACE letter...?
Edited by gorvid on Sunday 30th July 11:39
gorvid said:
vonhosen said:
What speeding fines are imposed without the court process being followed ?
I may not be making sense here Von...
I mean the thing recently where the fines are issued on the spot or without prosecution...
These so called letters that can "get you off" fines etc...etc...
You mean Fixed Penalty Notices ?
A FPN isn't imposed, it is a conditional offer.
You are given the opportunity to pay a fixed penalty & if you accpet that (thereby admitting the offence), you won't have the expense of a day in court or conviction.
It is still your right to have your day in court, it isn't therefore imposed on you, it's a choice you've made.
gorvid said:
vonhosen said:
You are given the opportunity to pay a fixed penalty & if you accpet that (thereby admitting the offence).
Don't you have to effectively sign something that admits guilt - even if you want to contest it...?
With the conditional offer you have the choice (there is a 2 sided tear off portion).
I admit the offence, I am willing to pay the fine & surrender my licence for points on one side.
I want to go to court (don't pay the fine & don't want points) on the other.
If you don't fill in either, don't pay the fine OR surrender licence, it just goes to court. You are not forced to accept the FPN.
No fine is being imposed, you are being made an offer.
PCNs Penalty Charge Notices are a different matter (council parking notices etc)
They are not for a criminal offence, there is no court involvement.
You are being given a penalty & the offer is a 50% reduction in the penalty if you pay within 14 days. It isn't a fine.
Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 30th July 11:54
gorvid said:
Whats the backround on the PACE letter defence thingy then...
Have I gotten my wires crossed..?
Have I gotten my wires crossed..?
That's to do with your obligations under Sec 172 & nominating a driver.
You have a right to silence (not give details that incriminate yourself) & under PACE where Police have reasonable grounds to suspect that you may have commited an offence, they should caution you & inform you of that right. However Police don't have to do that in certain circumstances under PACE, one being where the information you are required to give is required by statute. You have a legal duty under Sec 172.
vonhosen said:
You have a right to silence (not give details that incriminate yourself) & under PACE where Police have reasonable grounds to suspect that you may have commited an offence, they should caution you & inform you of that right. However Police don't have to do that in certain circumstances under PACE, one being where the information you are required to give is required by statute. You have a legal duty under Sec 172.
Right....
So how does the pace letter work...and what do you think about it....?
BTW - It is rare to be able to discuss things without you attracting the usual band of pitchfork wielding locals Von...
gorvid said:
vonhosen said:
You have a right to silence (not give details that incriminate yourself) & under PACE where Police have reasonable grounds to suspect that you may have commited an offence, they should caution you & inform you of that right. However Police don't have to do that in certain circumstances under PACE, one being where the information you are required to give is required by statute. You have a legal duty under Sec 172.
Right....
So how does the pace letter work...and what do you think about it....?
BTW - It is rare to be able to discuss things without you attracting the usual band of pitchfork wielding locals Von...
What people are trying to do with the PACE letter is comply with the law without incriminating themselves.
They are saying here is the information I must give you, but I am only giving you this information to comply with the law. You can't use it against me as you haven't cautioned me.
People started off trying to give the information without incriminating themselves by not signing the form. They were ruled against in that case, being told they must sign it, so now they try the PACE letter. People are saying that Sec 172 is a breach of their right to silence & a judgement on that is awaiting in Europe. In the meantime it's business as usual.
vonhosen said:
A FPN isn't imposed, it is a conditional offer.
Oh do come off it vh! Its NOT an *offer* at all! Youre telling me that out of some sense of "fairness" we will be given the chance to be "let a little lighter" if we confess? Duress, harassement, intimidation are all words that can be used in place of your PC-claptrap-speak nonsense words.
vonhosen said:
You are given the opportunity to pay a fixed penalty & if you accpet that
*PAY* being the operative word here because lets face it, its more important to get the cash than to get justice done in this brave new labia worlds system of FPN's and grass-lines!
vonhosen said:
(thereby admitting the offence),
Oh thats ok then. Admit your guilt and we wont
you *quite* so badly as if you exercise your legal right to a defence! vonhosen said:
you won't have the expense of a day in court or conviction.
CRAP! Youve just posted that you "thereby admit the offence", the minute youre intimidated into paying the fine!!!(greater manchester scam cop force anyone??) All without ANY court hearing a thing!!
Great justice, great system.
The sooner people band together and give these pricks a bloody nose the better for democracy in britain. Time to stand up and be counted.
VH, as usual, deals admirably with the criminal side of motoring law.
There is also the civil side, in that decriminalisation of parking laws where LA's take out a Special Parking Order allowing their own enforcement. Under this parking offences are no longer dealt with at a Mags Court but infringements deal with as a civil debt.
Poster may be well be referring to the arguemnt in the Bill of Rights 1689
www.tinyurl.com/47rqh.
Just as VH closes the door on the criminal side of that arguement,likewise on the civil side on 5th June 2006 Mr Justice COLLINS held that it did not apply to Penalty Charge Notices. He stated " The only surprise I have is that this arguement has been introduced on a number of occasions and seems to have worried local authorities and even parking adjudicators. All I can say is that they should cease to worry. It is, as I say, a completely baseless argument."
Door closed and locked?
dvd
There is also the civil side, in that decriminalisation of parking laws where LA's take out a Special Parking Order allowing their own enforcement. Under this parking offences are no longer dealt with at a Mags Court but infringements deal with as a civil debt.
Poster may be well be referring to the arguemnt in the Bill of Rights 1689
www.tinyurl.com/47rqh.
Just as VH closes the door on the criminal side of that arguement,likewise on the civil side on 5th June 2006 Mr Justice COLLINS held that it did not apply to Penalty Charge Notices. He stated " The only surprise I have is that this arguement has been introduced on a number of occasions and seems to have worried local authorities and even parking adjudicators. All I can say is that they should cease to worry. It is, as I say, a completely baseless argument."
Door closed and locked?
dvd
Edited by Dwight Vandriver on Sunday 30th July 15:18
Edited by Dwight Vandriver on Sunday 30th July 15:20
Dwight Vandriver said:
VH, as usual, deals admirably with the criminal side of motoring law.
There is also the civil side, in that decriminalisation of parking laws where LA's take out a Special Parking Order allowing their own enforcement. Under this parking offences are no longer dealt with at a Mags Court but infringements deal with as a civil debt.
Poster may be well be referring to the arguemnt in the Bill of Rights 1689
www.tinyurl.com/47rqh.
Just as VH closes the door on the criminal side of that arguement,likewise on the civil side on 5th June 2006 Mr Justice COLLINS held that it did not apply to Penalty Charge Notices. He stated " The only surprise I have is that this arguement has been introduced on a number of occasions and seems to have worried local authorities and even parking adjudicators. All I can say is that they should cease to worry. It is, as I say, a completely baseless argument."
Door closed and locked?
dvd
An interesting aside to that is that if it's not a fine it's legal to deduct the payment against your tax as a business expense. As one door closes another opens? There is also the civil side, in that decriminalisation of parking laws where LA's take out a Special Parking Order allowing their own enforcement. Under this parking offences are no longer dealt with at a Mags Court but infringements deal with as a civil debt.
Poster may be well be referring to the arguemnt in the Bill of Rights 1689
www.tinyurl.com/47rqh.
Just as VH closes the door on the criminal side of that arguement,likewise on the civil side on 5th June 2006 Mr Justice COLLINS held that it did not apply to Penalty Charge Notices. He stated " The only surprise I have is that this arguement has been introduced on a number of occasions and seems to have worried local authorities and even parking adjudicators. All I can say is that they should cease to worry. It is, as I say, a completely baseless argument."
Door closed and locked?
dvd
Edited by Dwight Vandriver on Sunday 30th July 15:18
I believe the BoR thing is going to appeal.
Deltafox said:
vonhosen said:
A FPN isn't imposed, it is a conditional offer.
Oh do come off it vh! Its NOT an *offer* at all! Youre telling me that out of some sense of "fairness" we will be given the chance to be "let a little lighter" if we confess? Duress, harassement, intimidation are all words that can be used in place of your PC-claptrap-speak nonsense words.
vonhosen said:
You are given the opportunity to pay a fixed penalty & if you accpet that
*PAY* being the operative word here because lets face it, its more important to get the cash than to get justice done in this brave new labia worlds system of FPN's and grass-lines!
vonhosen said:
(thereby admitting the offence),
Oh thats ok then. Admit your guilt and we wont
you *quite* so badly as if you exercise your legal right to a defence! vonhosen said:
you won't have the expense of a day in court or conviction.
CRAP! Youve just posted that you "thereby admit the offence", the minute youre intimidated into paying the fine!!!(greater manchester scam cop force anyone??) All without ANY court hearing a thing!!
Great justice, great system.
The sooner people band together and give these pricks a bloody nose the better for democracy in britain. Time to stand up and be counted.
FPNs are cheaper for you & cheaper for the legal system (win, win where you are guilty)
You should only pay a FPN if you are guilty.
Other than that have your day in court (which you are still entitled to take even if you are guilty).
Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 30th July 17:55
voyds9 said:
Murderers have a right to silence but speeders do not.
Very impressive legal system we have.
Very impressive legal system we have.
If you leave behind evidence at the scene of a murder that connects you with that scene & when questioned about it don't account for that instead maintaining your silence, that silence can be held against you later in court.
BliarOut said:
Dwight Vandriver said:
VH, as usual, deals admirably with the criminal side of motoring law.
There is also the civil side, in that decriminalisation of parking laws where LA's take out a Special Parking Order allowing their own enforcement. Under this parking offences are no longer dealt with at a Mags Court but infringements deal with as a civil debt.
Poster may be well be referring to the arguemnt in the Bill of Rights 1689
www.tinyurl.com/47rqh.
Just as VH closes the door on the criminal side of that arguement,likewise on the civil side on 5th June 2006 Mr Justice COLLINS held that it did not apply to Penalty Charge Notices. He stated " The only surprise I have is that this arguement has been introduced on a number of occasions and seems to have worried local authorities and even parking adjudicators. All I can say is that they should cease to worry. It is, as I say, a completely baseless argument."
Door closed and locked?
dvd
An interesting aside to that is that if it's not a fine it's legal to deduct the payment against your tax as a business expense. As one door closes another opens? There is also the civil side, in that decriminalisation of parking laws where LA's take out a Special Parking Order allowing their own enforcement. Under this parking offences are no longer dealt with at a Mags Court but infringements deal with as a civil debt.
Poster may be well be referring to the arguemnt in the Bill of Rights 1689
www.tinyurl.com/47rqh.
Just as VH closes the door on the criminal side of that arguement,likewise on the civil side on 5th June 2006 Mr Justice COLLINS held that it did not apply to Penalty Charge Notices. He stated " The only surprise I have is that this arguement has been introduced on a number of occasions and seems to have worried local authorities and even parking adjudicators. All I can say is that they should cease to worry. It is, as I say, a completely baseless argument."
Door closed and locked?
dvd
Edited by Dwight Vandriver on Sunday 30th July 15:18
I believe the BoR thing is going to appeal.
I fancy HMI of taxes has a harder nose than the legal system.
Hasn't anyone here www.direct.gov.uk/HomeAndCommunity/WhereYouLive/StreetParkingCleaningAndLighting/StreetInformationArticles/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=10024872&chk=0UDnbt been told a PCN ain't a fine 
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