Bus lane - can they really charge me double?
Discussion
Two or three months back, on a bank holiday Monday, I pulled out of a side road at a point where traffic was quite heavy in lane 2, where lane 1 was a bus lane. Instead of trying to force my way into the traffic by sitting nudging the car out at right angles (and potentially blocking the bus lane), and instead of sitting waiting ages for nobody to let me in, I pulled out into the bus lane and put my foot down for a couple of seconds to get up to speed and pull into a gap in traffic. Pretty sensible you would think, and a means of not inconveniencing or endangering anyone.
But I was snapped/videoed by a bus lane camera and asked for £50 if I replied within 14 days or £100 thereafter. There was no option to object within 14 days; I had to wait 28 until the penalty charge notice (or whatever they call it) was sent out. So, given my good intentions at the time, I waited, then I appealed.
That appeal was rejected in a letter that contained two pictures of the car, one after about 2 feet more progress than the other, which I was told "clearly showed that [I] had driven a substantial distance in the bus lane"! I was also asked for £100.
I wrote back saying that I still disagreed and was upset with the implications of what the bus lane cameras were being used for (clearly not reducing congestion or promoting road safety, claerly!), etc. but enclosing £50 and suggesting that, if they decided that the "substantial distance" line did not constitute a gross inaccuracy, they might take the £50 as full and final payment. After all, I had thought I was innocent, and clearly it would be wrong to charge someone who thinks he is innocent double the amount charged to someone who knows he is guilty and owns up right away, right?
But no, I've just had a letter asking for a FURTHER £100 because I haven't paid in full. I can afford it but object because I believe it is just plain wrong.
What can I do now? What reasonable person is there to whom I may appeal?
Can they really charge someone whose appeal is rejected more than he would have had to pay if he had not appealed?
But I was snapped/videoed by a bus lane camera and asked for £50 if I replied within 14 days or £100 thereafter. There was no option to object within 14 days; I had to wait 28 until the penalty charge notice (or whatever they call it) was sent out. So, given my good intentions at the time, I waited, then I appealed.
That appeal was rejected in a letter that contained two pictures of the car, one after about 2 feet more progress than the other, which I was told "clearly showed that [I] had driven a substantial distance in the bus lane"! I was also asked for £100.
I wrote back saying that I still disagreed and was upset with the implications of what the bus lane cameras were being used for (clearly not reducing congestion or promoting road safety, claerly!), etc. but enclosing £50 and suggesting that, if they decided that the "substantial distance" line did not constitute a gross inaccuracy, they might take the £50 as full and final payment. After all, I had thought I was innocent, and clearly it would be wrong to charge someone who thinks he is innocent double the amount charged to someone who knows he is guilty and owns up right away, right?
But no, I've just had a letter asking for a FURTHER £100 because I haven't paid in full. I can afford it but object because I believe it is just plain wrong.
What can I do now? What reasonable person is there to whom I may appeal?
Can they really charge someone whose appeal is rejected more than he would have had to pay if he had not appealed?
than trying to get anywhere with itvonhosen said:
They don't charge double.
The charge is £100.
You only get the discount if you pay within 14 days.
The charge is £100.
You only get the discount if you pay within 14 days.
That's like saying that TM Lewin's suit trousers really are half price for 6 months of the year and two for the price of one for the other 6 months!
The reality is that they are offering an incentive to admit you were wrong even though you don't think you were, meaning that the well-intentioned motorist may end up treated worse than the one who knows he was wrong.
That ain't justice and ought to be challenged. Question is: can that be done successfully?
Have you explained to them what you did?
Write to your MP explaining / asking for help. Ask the people issuing the ticket to refer it to the adjudicator.
Have they kept your £50? Was it cash / cheque?
Good luck - this is something I used to do (pull out, accelerate, move over) all the time in Nottingham, but the powers that be have actually modified the bus lanes in many places so they're not as near to junctions.
Write to your MP explaining / asking for help. Ask the people issuing the ticket to refer it to the adjudicator.
Have they kept your £50? Was it cash / cheque?
Good luck - this is something I used to do (pull out, accelerate, move over) all the time in Nottingham, but the powers that be have actually modified the bus lanes in many places so they're not as near to junctions.
tigger1 said:
Have you explained to them what you did?
Write to your MP explaining / asking for help. Ask the people issuing the ticket to refer it to the adjudicator.
Have they kept your £50? Was it cash / cheque?
Good luck - this is something I used to do (pull out, accelerate, move over) all the time in Nottingham, but the powers that be have actually modified the bus lanes in many places so they're not as near to junctions.
Write to your MP explaining / asking for help. Ask the people issuing the ticket to refer it to the adjudicator.
Have they kept your £50? Was it cash / cheque?
Good luck - this is something I used to do (pull out, accelerate, move over) all the time in Nottingham, but the powers that be have actually modified the bus lanes in many places so they're not as near to junctions.
Yes, they kept the £50 cheque.
Won't they tell me I'm too late for the adjudicator? Nothing to lose, I suppose.
vonhosen said:
gpshead said:
vonhosen said:
They don't charge double.
The charge is £100.
You only get the discount if you pay within 14 days.
The charge is £100.
You only get the discount if you pay within 14 days.
Do you think the punishment fits the "crime" in this case?
It's not a "crime" it's a PCN
makes it even worse
and he did put it in inverted commas, indicating he didn't think it was a crime Edited by cheeky on Friday 11th August 08:09
vonhosen said:
gpshead said:
vonhosen said:
They don't charge double.
The charge is £100.
You only get the discount if you pay within 14 days.
The charge is £100.
You only get the discount if you pay within 14 days.
Do you think the punishment fits the "crime" in this case?
It's not a "crime" it's a PCN
How about trying "yes" or "no" just once in a while?
Is the Norfolk pratship still short of a manager? I think you would be perfect, weasel words (and an irrational support of cameras) being a prerequisite.
Edited by gpshead on Friday 11th August 00:16
www.tinyurl.com/nwcp7
http://tinyurl.com/k7chb
dvd
http://tinyurl.com/k7chb
dvd
Edited by Dwight Vandriver on Friday 11th August 08:07
cheeky said:
tigger1 said:
Have you explained to them what you did?
Write to your MP explaining / asking for help. Ask the people issuing the ticket to refer it to the adjudicator.
Have they kept your £50? Was it cash / cheque?
Good luck - this is something I used to do (pull out, accelerate, move over) all the time in Nottingham, but the powers that be have actually modified the bus lanes in many places so they're not as near to junctions.
Write to your MP explaining / asking for help. Ask the people issuing the ticket to refer it to the adjudicator.
Have they kept your £50? Was it cash / cheque?
Good luck - this is something I used to do (pull out, accelerate, move over) all the time in Nottingham, but the powers that be have actually modified the bus lanes in many places so they're not as near to junctions.
Yes, they kept the £50 cheque.
Won't they tell me I'm too late for the adjudicator? Nothing to lose, I suppose.
If you offered that amount in full and final payment and they cashed it, it's full and final payment.
autismuk said:
cheeky said:
tigger1 said:
Have you explained to them what you did?
Write to your MP explaining / asking for help. Ask the people issuing the ticket to refer it to the adjudicator.
Have they kept your £50? Was it cash / cheque?
Good luck - this is something I used to do (pull out, accelerate, move over) all the time in Nottingham, but the powers that be have actually modified the bus lanes in many places so they're not as near to junctions.
Write to your MP explaining / asking for help. Ask the people issuing the ticket to refer it to the adjudicator.
Have they kept your £50? Was it cash / cheque?
Good luck - this is something I used to do (pull out, accelerate, move over) all the time in Nottingham, but the powers that be have actually modified the bus lanes in many places so they're not as near to junctions.
Yes, they kept the £50 cheque.
Won't they tell me I'm too late for the adjudicator? Nothing to lose, I suppose.
If you offered that amount in full and final payment and they cashed it, it's full and final payment.
why?
Dwight Vandriver said:
www.tinyurl.com/nwcp7
http://tinyurl.com/k7chb
dvd
http://tinyurl.com/k7chb
dvd
Edited by Dwight Vandriver on Friday 11th August 08:07
Thanks. Shame they don't say all those things on the form, which says you have to wait until the Enforcement Notice arrives before making representations.
smeggy said:
Did I miss something here? Did they really take £50 but are asking for another £100, so bringing the sum total of required payments to £150?
Granted the £50 wasn’t full payment but if it doesn’t go towards payment of the fine why did they take it?
Granted the £50 wasn’t full payment but if it doesn’t go towards payment of the fine why did they take it?
After 28 days from the request for payment the charge goes up from £100 to £150!
Was the cheque cashed?
Do you have a copy of the letter you sent offering it in full and final settlement?
If so, then they have accepted your offer. Therefore tell them to shove it where the sun doesn't shine. You have a legitimate expectation that they have agreed to your terms to my mind.
Do you have a copy of the letter you sent offering it in full and final settlement?
If so, then they have accepted your offer. Therefore tell them to shove it where the sun doesn't shine. You have a legitimate expectation that they have agreed to your terms to my mind.
jasandjules said:
Was the cheque cashed?
Do you have a copy of the letter you sent offering it in full and final settlement?
If so, then they have accepted your offer. Therefore tell them to shove it where the sun doesn't shine. You have a legitimate expectation that they have agreed to your terms to my mind.
Do you have a copy of the letter you sent offering it in full and final settlement?
If so, then they have accepted your offer. Therefore tell them to shove it where the sun doesn't shine. You have a legitimate expectation that they have agreed to your terms to my mind.
Adding to the complication was that, since I couldn't find my chequebook at the time, I gave a friend some cash and he sent in the cheque! I'll ask him if it has been cashed...
cashing a cheque when you say its full and final has no bearing or standing. You owe them money, they cash your cheque as part payment and tell you so. You still owe the balance. (at least in their mind)
Ive done this loads of times myself when people owe me money, in full and final settlement - if you dont make the offer in full and final first, and then if both sides agree, then send the money. Dont say full and final AND send money it doesnt work that way.
You take the money and chase the rest. The few time we have actually gone to court we have won. Its a part payment unless agreed before hand with BOTH parties.
Sorry to hear the OP peril,
Ive done this loads of times myself when people owe me money, in full and final settlement - if you dont make the offer in full and final first, and then if both sides agree, then send the money. Dont say full and final AND send money it doesnt work that way.
You take the money and chase the rest. The few time we have actually gone to court we have won. Its a part payment unless agreed before hand with BOTH parties.
Sorry to hear the OP peril,
Edited by superlightr on Friday 11th August 13:33
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff