RE: ABD condemns 'smart' systems
Friday 25th August 2006
Could ISA cope with this?ISA (Intelligent Speed Adaptation) should be re-named as USELESS (Unintelligent Speed Engineering Lowering Existing Safety Standards) according to the Association of British Drivers (ABD).
ABD condemns 'smart' systems
They're not clever, they're useless
Could ISA cope with this?
The ISA system being planned by the government to control the speed of vehicles, has just two inputs, the speed of the vehicle and the posted speed limit, which it looks up from the location given by a satellite navigation system, and it matches one to the other. That is not intelligence -- in no way can ISA be described as 'intelligent', said the ABD.
Vehicles, however, do need intelligent speed adaptation. The ABD reckoned we need an ISA system that includes:
- Visual inputs as well as speed so it can determine what speed is appropriate, given traffic patterns and likely actions of other road users.
- An ability to determine the weather, state of the road surface, gauge in advance how gradients and bends in the road will affect the safe speed of the vehicle
- Audio inputs and motion sensors, so it can tell how the vehicle is handling.
- Pre-learned data to predict how different vehicles handle so as to be able to adjust the safe speed to that particular vehicle, and it should be continually adding to its store of learned data.
- A very powerful computer which can process all the inputs in real time and output the safe speed for that moment.
- In addition to having control of the throttle and brakes, the ISA system should have control of the steering and ancillary controls as well. It should be programmed with an instinct for its own survival and self-preservation, as well as a strong desire not to cause damage to other such systems or to vehicles fitted with them.
When we can come up with a system which can do all that then they should be made compulsory on all vehicles, reckoned the ABD, adding that this was a pretty good description of a human driver.
ABD Chairman Brian Gregory said: "The only real intelligence in a vehicle's control system is found between the ears of the driver. We blunt that intelligence at our peril."
Discussion
A great sentiment from the ABD, but all available evidence suggests them, and anybody else advocating personal responsibility, is on a hiding to nothing.
It's like the report I read on BBC Teletext the other day. The headline was something along the lines of, "Customers denied key car safety feature", and I had to find out what the key safety feature was.
Electronic Stability Control/Programme, as it happens.
Some of the lines were utterly ridiculous. Particularly memorable was, "ESP prevents accidents in the event that the driver loses control of the car." Why does it seem to be taken almost for granted that the driver can't do anything about losing control? Why pedestrians and cars can't share the same space without colliding? Why every single unexpected circumstance is assumed to result in an accident without the intervention of a computer?
And I'm getting fed up with the latest craze phrase, "Accident prevention". No. "Risk reduction" or "error mitigation" perhaps, but I thought the key feature of an accident was that it wasn't preventable. Surely if something was preventable, it's a deliberate.
On paper electronic aids are great, but it seems in my experience that many drivers use them to offload some of their driving responsibility - it's not pleasant passengering someone whose regular driving style is only kept on the road by the constant intervention of a computer.
It's like the report I read on BBC Teletext the other day. The headline was something along the lines of, "Customers denied key car safety feature", and I had to find out what the key safety feature was.
Electronic Stability Control/Programme, as it happens.
Some of the lines were utterly ridiculous. Particularly memorable was, "ESP prevents accidents in the event that the driver loses control of the car." Why does it seem to be taken almost for granted that the driver can't do anything about losing control? Why pedestrians and cars can't share the same space without colliding? Why every single unexpected circumstance is assumed to result in an accident without the intervention of a computer?
And I'm getting fed up with the latest craze phrase, "Accident prevention". No. "Risk reduction" or "error mitigation" perhaps, but I thought the key feature of an accident was that it wasn't preventable. Surely if something was preventable, it's a deliberate.
On paper electronic aids are great, but it seems in my experience that many drivers use them to offload some of their driving responsibility - it's not pleasant passengering someone whose regular driving style is only kept on the road by the constant intervention of a computer.
I have to agree with you totally Timberwolf. Driving has been "dumbed down" by the recent electronic "aids". No longer do the majority of drivers pay any heed to the surroundings, road surfaces, the vehicle, its handling characteristics, or any of the other factors that can affect what is safe. Total reliance is placed on ABS, ETC, ESP, airbags, crumple zones, automatic wipers, automatic lights etc in the blind belief that it will get them out of trouble when it all goes wrong. What they don't consider is how to avoid getting into a loss of control situation in the first place.
Whilst I'm not advocating going back to cars without features such as ABS etc, nor going even further back to having to manually having to adjust the mixture and ignition timing as you drove along, I really think the main reason that many of today's incidents arise out of a total lack of awareness of vehicle dynamics and what is happening around the vehicle.
It would be interesting to analyse how many of us who enjoy "spirited" driving have needed the intervention of electronic safety devices compared to how many of the general drivers.
The answer in my opinion is to improve basic driver education and introduce compulsory re-examination. Of course a return to Traffic Police out on the roads rather than reliance on cameras which can only detect speed would probably see an immediate improvement in driving standards.
Whilst I'm not advocating going back to cars without features such as ABS etc, nor going even further back to having to manually having to adjust the mixture and ignition timing as you drove along, I really think the main reason that many of today's incidents arise out of a total lack of awareness of vehicle dynamics and what is happening around the vehicle.
It would be interesting to analyse how many of us who enjoy "spirited" driving have needed the intervention of electronic safety devices compared to how many of the general drivers.
The answer in my opinion is to improve basic driver education and introduce compulsory re-examination. Of course a return to Traffic Police out on the roads rather than reliance on cameras which can only detect speed would probably see an immediate improvement in driving standards.
ABD said:
Visual inputs as well as speed so it can determine what speed is appropriate, given traffic patterns and likely actions of other road users.
eyes, check
ABD said:
An ability to determine the weather, state of the road surface, gauge in advance how gradients and bends in the road will affect the safe speed of the vehicle
eyes again, check
ABD said:
Audio inputs and motion sensors, so it can tell how the vehicle is handling.
ears, check
ABD said:
Pre-learned data to predict how different vehicles handle so as to be able to adjust the safe speed to that particular vehicle, and it should be continually adding to its store of learned data.
experience, check
ABD said:
A very powerful computer which can process all the inputs in real time and output the safe speed for that moment.
human brain, check
ABD said:
In addition to having control of the throttle and brakes, the ISA system should have control of the steering and ancillary controls as well. It should be programmed with an instinct for its own survival and self-preservation, as well as a strong desire not to cause damage to other such systems or to vehicles fitted with them
Sadly this last one is the flaw.:{
Yeah, Timberwolf.
It's easy to get cynical, and I often do. However, I do think that the media overates itself. They can talk as much as they like, but there ARE sensible, intelligent people around. And the more sense gets spoken, the more it gets heard.
Yes, I often get cynical too. Seems most days that lies repeated often enough are taken as true by the majority of people. I could mention a number of huge ones, but they're way off topic, so I won't unless asked. But what I DO find, time and time again, is a number of sensible, intelligent people who do listen, and think for themselves, on the rare occasion when truth is told/published. Maybe it takes several hundred times for a lie to be told before it's accepted as truth. But i've noticed it takes only two or three times for the truth to be heard.
So good for the ABD, and SafeSpeed, for pointing out the truth time and time again. Let's face it, 'speedkills/drivers are all useless' has been around for some time now, but it's only recently I see Safespeed and ABD quoted time and time again. It'll be a while before the law makers and enforcers catch up to reality. The very system of democracy ensures that leaders are in fact followers (They bring things in when everybody else tells them to/when it'll bring in the votes). Nevertheless, CHANGE does take place, eventually, in the face of all the corporate and 'jobs for the boys' pressure that continually dumbs down our world.
The criminal senselessness of the Vietnam war did stop. It took ten years or so, but the truth did come out, people did refuse to fight, and finally the killing ended. Slavery stopped. Women got the vote. (After two hundred years of refuting the evidence) the terrible 'contagious disease' called scurvy was abolished from our ships (and our navy went on to win us the world....) So too, surely, for all this bureaucratic airing of non existent statistics in favour of 'speed kills'. Somehow I don't believe that the British Public will put up with black boxes in cars seeing everywhere we go and governing our speeds.
For example, the arguments in favour of ID cards have been voiced publically now for a long long time, while very little opposition is actually 'out there' in the media. But we still ain't got them.
British Law has been copied throughout the 'civilised' world for hundreds of years now. And a fundamental part of our legal system is the recognition that not all laws are just, and not all enforcers unimpeachable. Therefore we need protection from 'the powers that be'. NO WAY are we going to end up with big brother watching our every journey and our every purchase. No matter how much they try and scare us with the minimal threat of terrorism.
It's easy to get cynical, and I often do. However, I do think that the media overates itself. They can talk as much as they like, but there ARE sensible, intelligent people around. And the more sense gets spoken, the more it gets heard.
Yes, I often get cynical too. Seems most days that lies repeated often enough are taken as true by the majority of people. I could mention a number of huge ones, but they're way off topic, so I won't unless asked. But what I DO find, time and time again, is a number of sensible, intelligent people who do listen, and think for themselves, on the rare occasion when truth is told/published. Maybe it takes several hundred times for a lie to be told before it's accepted as truth. But i've noticed it takes only two or three times for the truth to be heard.
So good for the ABD, and SafeSpeed, for pointing out the truth time and time again. Let's face it, 'speedkills/drivers are all useless' has been around for some time now, but it's only recently I see Safespeed and ABD quoted time and time again. It'll be a while before the law makers and enforcers catch up to reality. The very system of democracy ensures that leaders are in fact followers (They bring things in when everybody else tells them to/when it'll bring in the votes). Nevertheless, CHANGE does take place, eventually, in the face of all the corporate and 'jobs for the boys' pressure that continually dumbs down our world.
The criminal senselessness of the Vietnam war did stop. It took ten years or so, but the truth did come out, people did refuse to fight, and finally the killing ended. Slavery stopped. Women got the vote. (After two hundred years of refuting the evidence) the terrible 'contagious disease' called scurvy was abolished from our ships (and our navy went on to win us the world....) So too, surely, for all this bureaucratic airing of non existent statistics in favour of 'speed kills'. Somehow I don't believe that the British Public will put up with black boxes in cars seeing everywhere we go and governing our speeds.
For example, the arguments in favour of ID cards have been voiced publically now for a long long time, while very little opposition is actually 'out there' in the media. But we still ain't got them.
British Law has been copied throughout the 'civilised' world for hundreds of years now. And a fundamental part of our legal system is the recognition that not all laws are just, and not all enforcers unimpeachable. Therefore we need protection from 'the powers that be'. NO WAY are we going to end up with big brother watching our every journey and our every purchase. No matter how much they try and scare us with the minimal threat of terrorism.
You know, the bit that really worries me is that all I seem to hear today is news of systems that will be introduced that control how I can live my life. Many of these relate to how I drive my car. We are to be governed in the way we can drive (control systems), where we can drive (congestion zones) and how much it will cost us for the privilege (endless, crippling new taxes and charges of one sort or another).
When is this going to stop, and what sort of world are we heading for? And I can't understand why someone isn't standing on the rooftops and shouting about how unacceptable this all is.
We have legions of 'experts' - including the journalists that are not only supposed to educate and entertain us, but who can normally be relied upon to vocalise the zeitgeist and perhaps even campaign on behalf of motorists. But is it happening? No. Like a herd of BSE-stricken cows we all seem to lumber on towards the goddamm awful inevitability of the end of life as we know it.
Where is our champion?
When is this going to stop, and what sort of world are we heading for? And I can't understand why someone isn't standing on the rooftops and shouting about how unacceptable this all is.
We have legions of 'experts' - including the journalists that are not only supposed to educate and entertain us, but who can normally be relied upon to vocalise the zeitgeist and perhaps even campaign on behalf of motorists. But is it happening? No. Like a herd of BSE-stricken cows we all seem to lumber on towards the goddamm awful inevitability of the end of life as we know it.
Where is our champion?
Edited by vinceh on Friday 25th August 14:10
Recently, the movie adapation of Asimov's I, Robot, was a rather fanciful illustrations of robotic malfeasance. There's a movie from 1976, Westworld, which stars Yul Brenner as a malfunctioning robot, from which we get the expression, "There's nothing that can go wrong...go wrong...go wrong...go wrong..."
Computers are stupid. I don't want one controlling my vehicle. As a human, I make mistakes, but usually can determine when I've really screwed up and with any luck, I can take corrective action. When a computer makes a mistake...well, they never do. Something may malfunction, but more likely the combination parameters forseen by programmers will be exceeded in one way or another, and that's when random things start happening. Most likely it will continue what it was doing (not good if that was heading towards a bridge abutment), or just stop altogether. Not good if something large and heavy and fast your way comes.
Thanks, but no thanks.
Computers are stupid. I don't want one controlling my vehicle. As a human, I make mistakes, but usually can determine when I've really screwed up and with any luck, I can take corrective action. When a computer makes a mistake...well, they never do. Something may malfunction, but more likely the combination parameters forseen by programmers will be exceeded in one way or another, and that's when random things start happening. Most likely it will continue what it was doing (not good if that was heading towards a bridge abutment), or just stop altogether. Not good if something large and heavy and fast your way comes.
Thanks, but no thanks.
jmatras said:
Recently, the movie adapation of Asimov's I, Robot, was a rather fanciful illustrations of robotic malfeasance. There's a movie from 1976, Westworld, which stars Yul Brenner as a malfunctioning robot, from which we get the expression, "There's nothing that can go wrong...go wrong...go wrong...go wrong..."
Computers are stupid. I don't want one controlling my vehicle. As a human, I make mistakes, but usually can determine when I've really screwed up and with any luck, I can take corrective action. When a computer makes a mistake...well, they never do. Something may malfunction, but more likely the combination parameters forseen by programmers will be exceeded in one way or another, and that's when random things start happening. Most likely it will continue what it was doing (not good if that was heading towards a bridge abutment), or just stop altogether. Not good if something large and heavy and fast your way comes.
Thanks, but no thanks.
Computers are stupid. I don't want one controlling my vehicle. As a human, I make mistakes, but usually can determine when I've really screwed up and with any luck, I can take corrective action. When a computer makes a mistake...well, they never do. Something may malfunction, but more likely the combination parameters forseen by programmers will be exceeded in one way or another, and that's when random things start happening. Most likely it will continue what it was doing (not good if that was heading towards a bridge abutment), or just stop altogether. Not good if something large and heavy and fast your way comes.
Thanks, but no thanks.
Spot on.
The reality is that computers are designed by plain old human beings. I work in IT and people make mistakes and sometimes these are very costly. The worse thing is when we rely on them too much so that when they fail we are not prepared. This failure can happen suddenly and because we have been lured into a mind numbing comfort, our reaction times are so delayed that we cannot react in time to save or fix the situation. We need to be alert and driving manual cars without driver aids not only makes us concentrate more but react to any situation better, even though our actions might still end up to be the wrong ones.
Experience is key. Keeping alert to the ways that vehicles behave in certain situations and environments and how best to react make us all better drivers. If we want to push the envelope of our skills then we have race tracks, autodromes, advanced training courses, etc., that are available to us all to increase our skills in controlled and inherently safe surroundings.
With this wonderful plan of satellite control, how will they cope with tunnels, and densely tree covered roads duing the spring and summer months? I know that My satellite system loses its signal regularly, especially in big cities which is where they would eant to make this really effective. Stop this nonsense and the BIG BROTHER controlling nanny state!
Edited by bridgland on Friday 25th August 14:40
timberwolf said:
On paper electronic aids are great, but it seems in my experience that many drivers use them to offload some of their driving responsibility - it's not pleasant passengering someone whose regular driving style is only kept on the road by the constant intervention of a computer.
Going one step further, stability control systems are used by cost- and time-to-market driven vehicle engineers to offload their responsibility for chassis' that are good and safe without their intervention.
As John Miles puts it in his column in the latest issue of Vehicle Dynamics International: "Despite desginers' best efforts, a car may not necessarily behave as predicted on the computer screen (if only because computer software does not understand rubber very well), so the whole thing ends up in the lap of the development engineer to sort out. Alternatively, and to save time, it reaches the stability control system programmer, who has to paper over the cracks". Which in my experience, is exactly what happens, especially in car segments where the manufacturer reckons there is no significant gain in perceived customer value in proper dynamic behaviour. Of course, a large proportion of mainstraim cars getting ever higher CoG and kerb weight does not make for a great starting point either.
The thing with stability control sytems is that, while they can be useful in emergency scenarios where the driver is forced to take the car beyond its dynamic limits, say emergency lane change manoeuvres (but if safety is that high up our priorities, why do we accept the dynamic limits of todays cars - MPVs, SUVs, hatchbacks that are 5" taller and 300 kgs heaier than a generation or two ago - to be compromised?) I deem them undesirable in cases where a car gets more or less consciously taken towards the cornering limits by the driver.
Say a car will fly out of a given bend under given conditions at 120 km/h. With a 'natural' car, the driver will probably notice progressively less stable behaviour up to that speed from say, 90 km/h and will choose his/her 'maximum attack' cornering speed somewhere in the 90-120 km/h zone, at a level of stability/waywardness just within his/her comfort zone (which in turn depnds on skill/experience/confidence - which sadly are often not commensurate with each other, but there you go).
Now we insert an electronic stability control system that corrects yaw angles to the point that the car exactly follows the intended course right up to the edge of the envelope. Theoretically, I can do 119 km/h in that same corner and experience total stability. So what's keeping me from taking the bend - whether consciously or not - at 121 km/h next time?
Edited by 900T-R on Friday 25th August 14:48
Got cut up by a police car this morning, needed all my 30 years of driving experience to avoid 2 plods in an Astra, no lights - siren just going back toward Maidenhead Plod sanctuary, I commend the Police for stopping the latest atrocity by our cultural friends but for the road safety and this latest system...well you know the answer
As far as I can see everyone on here seems to pretty much agree with each other and the ABD.
There are plently of drivers groups around such as SafeSpeed, the ABD, the IAM, as well as many many web forum's like this one where we're all in agreement that something must be done other than speed camera's and electronics in cars.
As has already been said here, it must start with a higher level of driver training and manditory retesting for those too lazy to carry on driving with proper awareness and anticipation.
So why isn't anything being done by the government? Why are we constantly being ignored? What can we do to really highlight these facts and get them to try SOMETHING ELSE that will not only improve road safety and traffic congestion but stop winding up those of us that are left that actually enjoy driving.
I got my love of driving from my father, but the way the roads have changed for the worse (speed humps, chicanes, camera's, dodgy phasing on traffic lights) seems to have knocked it out of him. He now drives around looking at his speedo and is not as safe as when he took an interest in the drive in his younger days. He can't be the only one...
What can we do to move things in the right direction?
I've tried writing to my MP, the head's of the DfT and DSA and get stanard style letters back referring me to the DSA's response which was a big 15 page letter saying all of their lovely scheme's they have in place... None of which seem to be doing much!
There are plently of drivers groups around such as SafeSpeed, the ABD, the IAM, as well as many many web forum's like this one where we're all in agreement that something must be done other than speed camera's and electronics in cars.
As has already been said here, it must start with a higher level of driver training and manditory retesting for those too lazy to carry on driving with proper awareness and anticipation.
So why isn't anything being done by the government? Why are we constantly being ignored? What can we do to really highlight these facts and get them to try SOMETHING ELSE that will not only improve road safety and traffic congestion but stop winding up those of us that are left that actually enjoy driving.
I got my love of driving from my father, but the way the roads have changed for the worse (speed humps, chicanes, camera's, dodgy phasing on traffic lights) seems to have knocked it out of him. He now drives around looking at his speedo and is not as safe as when he took an interest in the drive in his younger days. He can't be the only one...
What can we do to move things in the right direction?
I've tried writing to my MP, the head's of the DfT and DSA and get stanard style letters back referring me to the DSA's response which was a big 15 page letter saying all of their lovely scheme's they have in place... None of which seem to be doing much!
I agree with what you have all said.
The standard of driving on our roads is now so poor that we cannot afford to let computers take even more responsibility and control away from drivers....
Speed limits are the same:
30mph outside a school on a dark, foggy, icy, winter afternoon, stereo on full whack, teenager at the wheel is DEADLY. However, it is not against the law.
130mph on a clear, empty, dry, 3 lane motorway at 6am, an experienced driver at the wheel of a capable car - banned at least, right?
Who is the most dangerous?
Take away the control and all cars will drive everywhere at the governed limit and drivers will be so brain dead that should something out of the ordinary happen, the drivers will not react and more crashes and deaths will result!!
The standard of driving on our roads is now so poor that we cannot afford to let computers take even more responsibility and control away from drivers....
Speed limits are the same:
30mph outside a school on a dark, foggy, icy, winter afternoon, stereo on full whack, teenager at the wheel is DEADLY. However, it is not against the law.
130mph on a clear, empty, dry, 3 lane motorway at 6am, an experienced driver at the wheel of a capable car - banned at least, right?
Who is the most dangerous?
Take away the control and all cars will drive everywhere at the governed limit and drivers will be so brain dead that should something out of the ordinary happen, the drivers will not react and more crashes and deaths will result!!
darkblueturbo said:
As far as I can see everyone on here seems to pretty much agree with each other and the ABD.
There are plently of drivers groups around such as SafeSpeed, the ABD, the IAM, as well as many many web forum's like this one where we're all in agreement that something must be done other than speed camera's and electronics in cars.
As has already been said here, it must start with a higher level of driver training and manditory retesting for those too lazy to carry on driving with proper awareness and anticipation.
So why isn't anything being done by the government? Why are we constantly being ignored? What can we do to really highlight these facts and get them to try SOMETHING ELSE that will not only improve road safety and traffic congestion but stop winding up those of us that are left that actually enjoy driving.
I got my love of driving from my father, but the way the roads have changed for the worse (speed humps, chicanes, camera's, dodgy phasing on traffic lights) seems to have knocked it out of him. He now drives around looking at his speedo and is not as safe as when he took an interest in the drive in his younger days. He can't be the only one...
What can we do to move things in the right direction?
I've tried writing to my MP, the head's of the DfT and DSA and get stanard style letters back referring me to the DSA's response which was a big 15 page letter saying all of their lovely scheme's they have in place... None of which seem to be doing much!
There are plently of drivers groups around such as SafeSpeed, the ABD, the IAM, as well as many many web forum's like this one where we're all in agreement that something must be done other than speed camera's and electronics in cars.
As has already been said here, it must start with a higher level of driver training and manditory retesting for those too lazy to carry on driving with proper awareness and anticipation.
So why isn't anything being done by the government? Why are we constantly being ignored? What can we do to really highlight these facts and get them to try SOMETHING ELSE that will not only improve road safety and traffic congestion but stop winding up those of us that are left that actually enjoy driving.
I got my love of driving from my father, but the way the roads have changed for the worse (speed humps, chicanes, camera's, dodgy phasing on traffic lights) seems to have knocked it out of him. He now drives around looking at his speedo and is not as safe as when he took an interest in the drive in his younger days. He can't be the only one...
What can we do to move things in the right direction?
I've tried writing to my MP, the head's of the DfT and DSA and get stanard style letters back referring me to the DSA's response which was a big 15 page letter saying all of their lovely scheme's they have in place... None of which seem to be doing much!
It is the big TICK the vote that would move this forward, but that is likely never to happen as this is consistently kept off the agenda come election time, Reason? Motoring provides such a colossal return to the government coffers that none of the parties will gamble on that even to achieve power. Why’s Labour banging on it so much with its dickhead front men Ladyman and Brumstorm, well they have always been a party of tax and spend and the more we continue to vote them in the more they will take. How far are they prepare to go with this example: When Ladyman went on Top gear Jezza ripped him apart but on the reruns it had been cut out, if they are prepared influence a TV show to make an interview appear different just what else have they done
Thanks slowlane... You can rest assured I've never put a big tick next to our current government.
But you get the feeling that whoeever you vote for there won't be anyone supporting the drivers, it'll just be a case of voting for those who offer us the least opposition.
But this is a democracy, where we have freedom of speech. It just frustrates the hell out of me that it seems to stop there - you can have your freedom of speech, you can all talk and shout all day about what you want. But don't expect us to listen unless it's good for the environment or our wallets!
We need to turn freedom of speech into action... Surely there's enough of us who agree and believe in this to lobby the government and the DSA until they're so sick of us they start to actually pay attention.
It seemed to work for the green brigade!
But you get the feeling that whoeever you vote for there won't be anyone supporting the drivers, it'll just be a case of voting for those who offer us the least opposition.
But this is a democracy, where we have freedom of speech. It just frustrates the hell out of me that it seems to stop there - you can have your freedom of speech, you can all talk and shout all day about what you want. But don't expect us to listen unless it's good for the environment or our wallets!
We need to turn freedom of speech into action... Surely there's enough of us who agree and believe in this to lobby the government and the DSA until they're so sick of us they start to actually pay attention.
It seemed to work for the green brigade!
darkblueturbo said:
Thanks slowlane... You can rest assured I've never put a big tick next to our current government.
But you get the feeling that whoeever you vote for there won't be anyone supporting the drivers, it'll just be a case of voting for those who offer us the least opposition.
But this is a democracy, where we have freedom of speech. It just frustrates the hell out of me that it seems to stop there - you can have your freedom of speech, you can all talk and shout all day about what you want. But don't expect us to listen unless it's good for the environment or our wallets!
We need to turn freedom of speech into action... Surely there's enough of us who agree and believe in this to lobby the government and the DSA until they're so sick of us they start to actually pay attention.
It seemed to work for the green brigade!
But you get the feeling that whoeever you vote for there won't be anyone supporting the drivers, it'll just be a case of voting for those who offer us the least opposition.
But this is a democracy, where we have freedom of speech. It just frustrates the hell out of me that it seems to stop there - you can have your freedom of speech, you can all talk and shout all day about what you want. But don't expect us to listen unless it's good for the environment or our wallets!
We need to turn freedom of speech into action... Surely there's enough of us who agree and believe in this to lobby the government and the DSA until they're so sick of us they start to actually pay attention.
It seemed to work for the green brigade!
A member for a day and already starting to rally the troops! Hmmmm.......who are you working for Mr Darkblueturbo?
Not working for anyone (funnily enough, I'm in the office and should be working now)
I'm just a driver like the rest of you. It all started with those idiots that don't KEEP LEFT UNLESS OVERTAKING which led to me sending letters to every paper and magazine in the country. Hardly any of them printed any of the letters I sent. And those that were printed never got a reply in the next issue from anyone else.
It started frustrating me that I wasn't getting anywhere so I recently (a couple of days ago) joined the ABD as I pretty much agree with their entire manifesto.
I just don't understand why all these people feel the same yet when we get together to get our voice heard (like the ABD) still nothing happens...
I'm not the one to stand at the front and organise a demonstration of modified cars infront of parliament, or organise a mass pulling down of all the speed and Congestion Charging cameras at the same time but surely there's someone who knows how to organise us and get us going...
As the song says... We've got to get together sooner or later....
I'm just a driver like the rest of you. It all started with those idiots that don't KEEP LEFT UNLESS OVERTAKING which led to me sending letters to every paper and magazine in the country. Hardly any of them printed any of the letters I sent. And those that were printed never got a reply in the next issue from anyone else.
It started frustrating me that I wasn't getting anywhere so I recently (a couple of days ago) joined the ABD as I pretty much agree with their entire manifesto.
I just don't understand why all these people feel the same yet when we get together to get our voice heard (like the ABD) still nothing happens...
I'm not the one to stand at the front and organise a demonstration of modified cars infront of parliament, or organise a mass pulling down of all the speed and Congestion Charging cameras at the same time but surely there's someone who knows how to organise us and get us going...
As the song says... We've got to get together sooner or later....
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