Question for Von (again!)
Discussion
Hi Von, all,
On the Safe Speed forums, discussing the Mark Milton case, the issue of overtaking differential speeds has come up. [Starts at: www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=96977#96977 ]
Some have interpreted the press reports of the trial to suggest that Mark Milton simply drove past other vehicles with massive speed differentials.
Now I know that on occasion it is possible to determine that the target vehicle has 'no reason' to deviate, and the risk of a high speed differential could posssibly be assessed as 'small' (and when I say 'high speed differential' I'm thinking in excess of +50mph). But you wouldn't catch me doing that.
I would reduce my speed differential to an absolute maximum of +30mph to pass another vehicle in an adjacent lane either on a single carriageway road or on a motorway.
And finally I have got to the question...
Do you give trainees any specific advice about overtaking speed differentials?
On the Safe Speed forums, discussing the Mark Milton case, the issue of overtaking differential speeds has come up. [Starts at: www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=96977#96977 ]
Some have interpreted the press reports of the trial to suggest that Mark Milton simply drove past other vehicles with massive speed differentials.
Now I know that on occasion it is possible to determine that the target vehicle has 'no reason' to deviate, and the risk of a high speed differential could posssibly be assessed as 'small' (and when I say 'high speed differential' I'm thinking in excess of +50mph). But you wouldn't catch me doing that.
I would reduce my speed differential to an absolute maximum of +30mph to pass another vehicle in an adjacent lane either on a single carriageway road or on a motorway.
And finally I have got to the question...
Do you give trainees any specific advice about overtaking speed differentials?
safespeed said:
Hi Von, all,
On the Safe Speed forums, discussing the Mark Milton case, the issue of overtaking differential speeds has come up. [Starts at: www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=96977#96977 ]
Some have interpreted the press reports of the trial to suggest that Mark Milton simply drove past other vehicles with massive speed differentials.
Now I know that on occasion it is possible to determine that the target vehicle has 'no reason' to deviate, and the risk of a high speed differential could posssibly be assessed as 'small' (and when I say 'high speed differential' I'm thinking in excess of +50mph). But you wouldn't catch me doing that.
I would reduce my speed differential to an absolute maximum of +30mph to pass another vehicle in an adjacent lane either on a single carriageway road or on a motorway.
And finally I have got to the question...
Do you give trainees any specific advice about overtaking speed differentials?
On the Safe Speed forums, discussing the Mark Milton case, the issue of overtaking differential speeds has come up. [Starts at: www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=96977#96977 ]
Some have interpreted the press reports of the trial to suggest that Mark Milton simply drove past other vehicles with massive speed differentials.
Now I know that on occasion it is possible to determine that the target vehicle has 'no reason' to deviate, and the risk of a high speed differential could posssibly be assessed as 'small' (and when I say 'high speed differential' I'm thinking in excess of +50mph). But you wouldn't catch me doing that.
I would reduce my speed differential to an absolute maximum of +30mph to pass another vehicle in an adjacent lane either on a single carriageway road or on a motorway.
And finally I have got to the question...
Do you give trainees any specific advice about overtaking speed differentials?
[pricks ears up] metaphorically speaking.
Actually I have sometimes done overtakes at a speed differential of 50 or a bit more mph. Example:
A two lane dual carriageway with a solitary HGV trundling along in lane 1. I have sometimes gone past such a vehicle at a cracking pace on the basis that there are no factors that would prompt him to swap lanes as I approach. HGV drivers are professionals and I'm inclined to trust them fairly well in general, though I keep a wary eye on them as I approach with a view to overtaking. Am I being foolish and taking too much on trust? I don't feel I am, but I keep reviewing these things.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
TripleS said:
[pricks ears up] metaphorically speaking.
Actually I have sometimes done overtakes at a speed differential of 50 or a bit more mph. Example:
A two lane dual carriageway with a solitary HGV trundling along in lane 1. I have sometimes gone past such a vehicle at a cracking pace on the basis that there are no factors that would prompt him to swap lanes as I approach. HGV drivers are professionals and I'm inclined to trust them fairly well in general, though I keep a wary eye on them as I approach with a view to overtaking. Am I being foolish and taking too much on trust? I don't feel I am, but I keep reviewing these things.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Just keep an eye on our overseas drivers
How quickly can you lose the 50 mph differential (different at different speeds)?
How much can you see ahead of the other driver to understand his intentions?
How long have you had sight of the target to know whether he's stable or not?
How much room is there to play with (two nice wide motorway lanes, one nice wide motorway, small SC overtake, or breathe in everyone this is going to be tight).
Can you alert him to your presence prior to the overtake - flash etc?
How much can you see ahead of the other driver to understand his intentions?
How long have you had sight of the target to know whether he's stable or not?
How much room is there to play with (two nice wide motorway lanes, one nice wide motorway, small SC overtake, or breathe in everyone this is going to be tight).
Can you alert him to your presence prior to the overtake - flash etc?
safespeed said:
Hi Von, all,
On the Safe Speed forums, discussing the Mark Milton case, the issue of overtaking differential speeds has come up. [Starts at: www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=96977#96977 ]
Some have interpreted the press reports of the trial to suggest that Mark Milton simply drove past other vehicles with massive speed differentials.
Now I know that on occasion it is possible to determine that the target vehicle has 'no reason' to deviate, and the risk of a high speed differential could posssibly be assessed as 'small' (and when I say 'high speed differential' I'm thinking in excess of +50mph). But you wouldn't catch me doing that.
I would reduce my speed differential to an absolute maximum of +30mph to pass another vehicle in an adjacent lane either on a single carriageway road or on a motorway.
And finally I have got to the question...
Do you give trainees any specific advice about overtaking speed differentials?
On the Safe Speed forums, discussing the Mark Milton case, the issue of overtaking differential speeds has come up. [Starts at: www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=96977#96977 ]
Some have interpreted the press reports of the trial to suggest that Mark Milton simply drove past other vehicles with massive speed differentials.
Now I know that on occasion it is possible to determine that the target vehicle has 'no reason' to deviate, and the risk of a high speed differential could posssibly be assessed as 'small' (and when I say 'high speed differential' I'm thinking in excess of +50mph). But you wouldn't catch me doing that.
I would reduce my speed differential to an absolute maximum of +30mph to pass another vehicle in an adjacent lane either on a single carriageway road or on a motorway.
And finally I have got to the question...
Do you give trainees any specific advice about overtaking speed differentials?
What could pass as a safe differential will vary greatly depending on a huge number of factors.
Some have spoken about considerations here already, it really is going to be about topography & what can reasonably be expected of others, with a healthy dose of caution thrown in. It is certainly possible to safely have differentials quite a bit in excess of 30mph in certain circumstances IMHO, whilst at others that would be too large a margin.
Where our candidate's are extremely fortunate are in the amount of contact time they have with us. They get to see & practice under supervision a huge array of different passing maneouvres with a wide variety of differentials.
Where speeds are high, a couple of passes where I always instill great caution in candidates (where most lack it to start with) are on "A" class NSL DC roads (2 lane) & in relation to HGVs or other slower movers in lane 1.
When they get a long straight they can quite safely attain high speed, but on say approaching a sweeping left hander with a HGV travelling ahead in lane 1, they'll intially carry too much speed from the straight towards it, effectively commiting to the overtake from too far back. They don't generally lose some of the differntial before getting to a point of no return that is closer to the HGV. I tell them on approach to look down the nearside of the heavy for a broken down metro with a 70year old lady changing a tyre in lane 1. If she is there the HGV (who may not be able to see you in their offside mirror because of the curve) will just come straight out. You can't just commit from a long way back carrying a large differential which is what a lot of people are tempted to do because they don't want to lose speed. Early on they just tend to think of clear road in their lane & not what is likely to make that visible clear space change. They don't have enough information down the nearside while approaching fast to reliably predict that, so they must show caution & lose the speed to a more manageable differential & only commit when have sufficient vision of clear road in lane 1 ahead of the HGV that they can reasonably safely predict he is not going to suddenly change course. That my mean delaying the pass until the exit side of the curve, or even longer if other hazards are spotted down the nearside view aproaching exit side, such as a right turn option we are both approaching.
Another common one is same road approaching a roundabout where you have been travelling very quickly & have a large differential over a HGV you are closing on. You may have a totally clear lane 2 but expect the HGV (even if he has nothing infront of him at all) to move from 1 to 2 in the last third of a mile or so, if he intends to go right at the roundabout. He will likely judge it safe to take that lane based on how far away you appear in that mirror as opposed to an accurate assessment of differential speed you are approaching at.
On fast roads & with high speeds the use of the headlamp flash is a fantastic tool. It is something that is a skill of itself to do well & one that most will never need. If over or misused it can make you look like an aggressive maniac, but where used intelligently & at optimal times only, for optimal time lengths, it is very valueable.
Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 27th August 09:29
vonhosen said:
safespeed said:
Hi Von, all,
On the Safe Speed forums, discussing the Mark Milton case, the issue of overtaking differential speeds has come up. [Starts at: www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=96977#96977 ]
Some have interpreted the press reports of the trial to suggest that Mark Milton simply drove past other vehicles with massive speed differentials.
Now I know that on occasion it is possible to determine that the target vehicle has 'no reason' to deviate, and the risk of a high speed differential could posssibly be assessed as 'small' (and when I say 'high speed differential' I'm thinking in excess of +50mph). But you wouldn't catch me doing that.
I would reduce my speed differential to an absolute maximum of +30mph to pass another vehicle in an adjacent lane either on a single carriageway road or on a motorway.
And finally I have got to the question...
Do you give trainees any specific advice about overtaking speed differentials?
On the Safe Speed forums, discussing the Mark Milton case, the issue of overtaking differential speeds has come up. [Starts at: www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=96977#96977 ]
Some have interpreted the press reports of the trial to suggest that Mark Milton simply drove past other vehicles with massive speed differentials.
Now I know that on occasion it is possible to determine that the target vehicle has 'no reason' to deviate, and the risk of a high speed differential could posssibly be assessed as 'small' (and when I say 'high speed differential' I'm thinking in excess of +50mph). But you wouldn't catch me doing that.
I would reduce my speed differential to an absolute maximum of +30mph to pass another vehicle in an adjacent lane either on a single carriageway road or on a motorway.
And finally I have got to the question...
Do you give trainees any specific advice about overtaking speed differentials?
What could pass as a safe differential will vary greatly depending on a huge number of factors.
Some have spoken about considerations here already, it really is going to be about topography & what can reasonably be expected of others, with a healthy dose of caution thrown in. It is certainly possible to safely have differentials quite a bit in excess of 30mph in certain circumstances IMHO, whilst at others that would be too large a margin.
Where our candidate's are extremely fortunate are in the amount of contact time they have with us. They get to see & practice under supervision a huge array of different passing maneouvres with a wide variety of differentials.
Where speeds are high, a couple of passes where I always instill great caution in candidates (where most lack it to start with) are on "A" class NSL DC roads (2 lane) & in relation to HGVs or other slower movers in lane 1.
When they get a long straight they can quite safely attain high speed, but on say approaching a sweeping left hander with a HGV travelling ahead in lane 1, they'll intially carry too much speed from the straight towards it, effectively commiting to the overtake from too far back. They don't generally lose some of the differntial before getting to a point of no return that is closer to the HGV. I tell them on approach to look down the nearside of the heavy for a broken down metro with a 70year old lady changing a tyre in lane 1. If she is there the HGV (who may not be able to see you in their offside mirror because of the curve) will just come straight out. You can't just commit from a long way back carrying a large differential which is what a lot of people are tempted to do because they don't want to lose speed. Early on they just tend to think of clear road in their lane & not what is likely to make that visible clear space change. They don't have enough information down the nearside while approaching fast to reliably predict that, so they must show caution & lose the speed to a more manageable differential & only commit when have sufficient vision of clear road in lane 1 ahead of the HGV that they can reasonably safely predict he is not going to suddenly change course. That my mean delaying the pass until the exit side of the curve, or even longer if other hazards are spotted down the nearside view aproaching exit side, such as a right turn option we are both approaching.
Another common one is same road approaching a roundabout where you have been travelling very quickly & have a large differential over a HGV you are closing on. You may have a totally clear lane 2 but expect the HGV (even if he has nothing infront of him at all) to move from 1 to 2 in the last third of a mile or so, if he intends to go right at the roundabout. He will likely judge it safe to take that lane based on how far away you appear in that mirror as opposed to an accurate assessment of differential speed you are approaching at.
On fast roads & with high speeds the use of the headlamp flash is a fantastic tool. It is something that is a skill of itself to do well & one that most will never need. If over or misused it can make you look like an aggressive maniac, but where used intelligently & at optimal times only, for optimal time lengths, it is very valueable.
I'd guessed your answer might look a bit like that.
Obviously adjusting your driving to all the attendant circumstances is the fundamental principle at all times. I'll resist the opportunity to mention the speed limit at this point. One particular overtaking / speed differential issues that REALLY sets all my alarm bells ringing is when there are two ahead, close together at a low speed. Sooner or later the rear of the pair will finally spot his overtaking opportunity and swoop out - and if we're closing at +50mph, planning to sail past, when he pulls out we're in big big trouble. My advice to everyone - beware the slow double!
safespeed said:
vonhosen said:
safespeed said:
Hi Von, all,
On the Safe Speed forums, discussing the Mark Milton case, the issue of overtaking differential speeds has come up. [Starts at: www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=96977#96977 ]
Some have interpreted the press reports of the trial to suggest that Mark Milton simply drove past other vehicles with massive speed differentials.
Now I know that on occasion it is possible to determine that the target vehicle has 'no reason' to deviate, and the risk of a high speed differential could posssibly be assessed as 'small' (and when I say 'high speed differential' I'm thinking in excess of +50mph). But you wouldn't catch me doing that.
I would reduce my speed differential to an absolute maximum of +30mph to pass another vehicle in an adjacent lane either on a single carriageway road or on a motorway.
And finally I have got to the question...
Do you give trainees any specific advice about overtaking speed differentials?
On the Safe Speed forums, discussing the Mark Milton case, the issue of overtaking differential speeds has come up. [Starts at: www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=96977#96977 ]
Some have interpreted the press reports of the trial to suggest that Mark Milton simply drove past other vehicles with massive speed differentials.
Now I know that on occasion it is possible to determine that the target vehicle has 'no reason' to deviate, and the risk of a high speed differential could posssibly be assessed as 'small' (and when I say 'high speed differential' I'm thinking in excess of +50mph). But you wouldn't catch me doing that.
I would reduce my speed differential to an absolute maximum of +30mph to pass another vehicle in an adjacent lane either on a single carriageway road or on a motorway.
And finally I have got to the question...
Do you give trainees any specific advice about overtaking speed differentials?
What could pass as a safe differential will vary greatly depending on a huge number of factors.
Some have spoken about considerations here already, it really is going to be about topography & what can reasonably be expected of others, with a healthy dose of caution thrown in. It is certainly possible to safely have differentials quite a bit in excess of 30mph in certain circumstances IMHO, whilst at others that would be too large a margin.
Where our candidate's are extremely fortunate are in the amount of contact time they have with us. They get to see & practice under supervision a huge array of different passing maneouvres with a wide variety of differentials.
Where speeds are high, a couple of passes where I always instill great caution in candidates (where most lack it to start with) are on "A" class NSL DC roads (2 lane) & in relation to HGVs or other slower movers in lane 1.
When they get a long straight they can quite safely attain high speed, but on say approaching a sweeping left hander with a HGV travelling ahead in lane 1, they'll intially carry too much speed from the straight towards it, effectively commiting to the overtake from too far back. They don't generally lose some of the differntial before getting to a point of no return that is closer to the HGV. I tell them on approach to look down the nearside of the heavy for a broken down metro with a 70year old lady changing a tyre in lane 1. If she is there the HGV (who may not be able to see you in their offside mirror because of the curve) will just come straight out. You can't just commit from a long way back carrying a large differential which is what a lot of people are tempted to do because they don't want to lose speed. Early on they just tend to think of clear road in their lane & not what is likely to make that visible clear space change. They don't have enough information down the nearside while approaching fast to reliably predict that, so they must show caution & lose the speed to a more manageable differential & only commit when have sufficient vision of clear road in lane 1 ahead of the HGV that they can reasonably safely predict he is not going to suddenly change course. That my mean delaying the pass until the exit side of the curve, or even longer if other hazards are spotted down the nearside view aproaching exit side, such as a right turn option we are both approaching.
Another common one is same road approaching a roundabout where you have been travelling very quickly & have a large differential over a HGV you are closing on. You may have a totally clear lane 2 but expect the HGV (even if he has nothing infront of him at all) to move from 1 to 2 in the last third of a mile or so, if he intends to go right at the roundabout. He will likely judge it safe to take that lane based on how far away you appear in that mirror as opposed to an accurate assessment of differential speed you are approaching at.
On fast roads & with high speeds the use of the headlamp flash is a fantastic tool. It is something that is a skill of itself to do well & one that most will never need. If over or misused it can make you look like an aggressive maniac, but where used intelligently & at optimal times only, for optimal time lengths, it is very valueable.
I'd guessed your answer might look a bit like that.
Obviously adjusting your driving to all the attendant circumstances is the fundamental principle at all times. I'll resist the opportunity to mention the speed limit at this point. One particular overtaking / speed differential issues that REALLY sets all my alarm bells ringing is when there are two ahead, close together at a low speed. Sooner or later the rear of the pair will finally spot his overtaking opportunity and swoop out - and if we're closing at +50mph, planning to sail past, when he pulls out we're in big big trouble. My advice to everyone - beware the slow double!
That can be a problem at even low differentials on blues & twos in town. Lead of the two sees you & reacts, second one hasn't & pulls out. Always show caution with that second close vehicle & look for positive reactions before commiting.
Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 27th August 09:56
TripleS said:
Actually I have sometimes done overtakes at a speed differential of 50 or a bit more mph. Example:
A two lane dual carriageway with a solitary HGV trundling along in lane 1. I have sometimes gone past such a vehicle at a cracking pace on the basis that there are no factors that would prompt him to swap lanes as I approach. HGV drivers are professionals and I'm inclined to trust them fairly well in general, though I keep a wary eye on them as I approach with a view to overtaking. Am I being foolish and taking too much on trust? I don't feel I am, but I keep reviewing these things.
A two lane dual carriageway with a solitary HGV trundling along in lane 1. I have sometimes gone past such a vehicle at a cracking pace on the basis that there are no factors that would prompt him to swap lanes as I approach. HGV drivers are professionals and I'm inclined to trust them fairly well in general, though I keep a wary eye on them as I approach with a view to overtaking. Am I being foolish and taking too much on trust? I don't feel I am, but I keep reviewing these things.
The risk might be small, but the benefits of maintaining speed are tiny too. And the bad outcome is really very bad. Possibly for a Police Officer on emergency call it might be worth the risk of not slowing on occasion.
For the rest of us, and assuming that we have observed the road space in front of the truck, I'd say consider that the truck might have an offside blow out, spot some debris and swerve or simply fall asleep and unexpectedly veer into our lane.
It doesn't cost much to drop 20 or 30mph for the pass if it's an isolated vehicle and regain the speed after.
safespeed said:
7db said:
How quickly can you lose the 50 mph differential (different at different speeds)?
Emergency braking is ~20mph per second irrespective of speed. So the nominal answer is 2.5 seconds + reaction time.
Interesting one that, I was trying to work out how there would be a difference (if you ignored the reaction time). Obviously there will be wind resitance, gearing etc to take into account but I doubt that accounts for much.
JoolzB said:
safespeed said:
7db said:
How quickly can you lose the 50 mph differential (different at different speeds)?
Emergency braking is ~20mph per second irrespective of speed. So the nominal answer is 2.5 seconds + reaction time.
Interesting one that, I was trying to work out how there would be a difference (if you ignored the reaction time). Obviously there will be wind resitance, gearing etc to take into account but I doubt that accounts for much.
vonhosen said:
I tell them on approach to look down the nearside of the heavy for a broken down metro with a 70year old lady changing a tyre in lane 1. If she is there the HGV (who may not be able to see you in their offside mirror because of the curve) will just come straight out.
I think in that situation (sweeping left-hander) I would want to be in a position to see the broken-down metro round the outside of the truck before I committed, because of that moment of blindness when I move across behind the truck. There are plenty of situations where visibility was so limited that this wouldn't be possible, in which case I'd wait for visibility to improve before passing. If a corner is tight enough for this to be a problem, it isn't going to last long.
I'd agree with Paul's point about closing speed too. When I approach much slower traffic in an adjacent lane I want to be down to 20 mph or so closing speed by the time I contact them.
safespeed said:
turbobloke said:
20 mph per second is a good figure to use irrespective of speed but the type of car / vehicle will account for the bit of variation that will make a difference
Yeah, but if that (fairly small) variation matters on the road you're already 'in the lap of the gods'.
GreenV8S said:
vonhosen said:
I tell them on approach to look down the nearside of the heavy for a broken down metro with a 70year old lady changing a tyre in lane 1. If she is there the HGV (who may not be able to see you in their offside mirror because of the curve) will just come straight out.
I think in that situation (sweeping left-hander) I would want to be in a position to see the broken-down metro round the outside of the truck before I committed, because of that moment of blindness when I move across behind the truck. There are plenty of situations where visibility was so limited that this wouldn't be possible, in which case I'd wait for visibility to improve before passing. If a corner is tight enough for this to be a problem, it isn't going to last long.
I'd agree with Paul's point about closing speed too. When I approach much slower traffic in an adjacent lane I want to be down to 20 mph or so closing speed by the time I contact them.
The nearside view on a sweeping left hander also sweeps all the road space and can leave you in a position to pull out with complete confidence if executed correctly. Anyone got a diagram?
Once again a lovely explanation from Von and useful points from others also. What I described may be seen as being a bit risky by some, and certainly I would look for a long straight or a very large radius RH curve if going for a high speed overtake. Launching into such a move on the approach to a LH curve would be a good deal more risky I agree. One does need to have good assurance that there is nothing ahead of the target vehicle that might prompt him to change course just as you're arriving.
The sort of thing that I tend to be aware of but would not cater for is the possibility of the HGV tyre failure. To my mind the possibility of that happening just at the critical moment as you are about to pass him is so low that TBH I discount it. Perhaps that will be felt to be wrong, I don't know.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
The sort of thing that I tend to be aware of but would not cater for is the possibility of the HGV tyre failure. To my mind the possibility of that happening just at the critical moment as you are about to pass him is so low that TBH I discount it. Perhaps that will be felt to be wrong, I don't know.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Edited by TripleS on Sunday 27th August 14:55
safespeed said:
The nearside view on a sweeping left hander also sweeps all the road space and can leave you in a position to pull out with complete confidence if executed correctly. Anyone got a diagram?
Only if you can see so far ahead that you can see everything that the truck will need to respond to during the entire manoeuver. That would make it either an extremely low speed overtake, or a very high closing speed, or hardly any curve at all. I'm thinking more of motorway sliproad situations where you might be able to see 200-300 yards past the truck at the start of the manoeuver but with a large blind spot as you approach the truck. The look down the inside might tell you that the pass is off, but it won't (usually ime) tell you that it is on.
safespeed said:
GreenV8S said:
vonhosen said:
I tell them on approach to look down the nearside of the heavy for a broken down metro with a 70year old lady changing a tyre in lane 1. If she is there the HGV (who may not be able to see you in their offside mirror because of the curve) will just come straight out.
I think in that situation (sweeping left-hander) I would want to be in a position to see the broken-down metro round the outside of the truck before I committed, because of that moment of blindness when I move across behind the truck. There are plenty of situations where visibility was so limited that this wouldn't be possible, in which case I'd wait for visibility to improve before passing. If a corner is tight enough for this to be a problem, it isn't going to last long.
I'd agree with Paul's point about closing speed too. When I approach much slower traffic in an adjacent lane I want to be down to 20 mph or so closing speed by the time I contact them.
The nearside view on a sweeping left hander also sweeps all the road space and can leave you in a position to pull out with complete confidence if executed correctly. Anyone got a diagram?
I think we are all thinking of & visualisation our own different scenarios.
On a sweeping SC left hander you may have sufficient vision from an offside position down the n/s, but it will dependent on the vehicle.
I'm not quite sure what GreenV8S is saying.
You never pass a HGV through a left hand curved path on a DC with him in one & you in 2 until you get the vision down his offside ?
Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 27th August 13:36
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