Discussion
buzzerm3 said:
Have just watched the GP2 sprint race this morning from Turkey - unbelievable. For those who haven't I won't spoil it except to say in 23 laps saw more overtaking than in the whole of a F1 season. Fantastic!
I wholeheartedly agree, I ve watched a fair bit of the GP2 series, and its far more exciting than F1.
You can actually see the drivers sawing at the wheel as they try to keep it all together.
Love it, just want min and max to
off and let F1 get back to the pinnacle of motorsport like it should be.Ban all the driver aids and put 'em back on proper slicks with ground effects and turbos.Sort of agree but why does GP2 get a fraction of the TV audience F1 does - even though it's on at a decent time?
It also gets only slightly less press coverage yet most "people down the pub" would not be able to name a single GP2 driver.
Also, if we were to take the thread subject to it's literal end, what we'd end up with with is GP2 as the new F1 which in 5 years, would be the same as F1 now.
The "second" tier race series tends to go through fits and starts. I remember not that long ago when F2, F3000 or whatever, was akin to watching paint dry. They have got it right now though!
I've always maintained that the lower rungs need better promotion. The current habit of taking drivers from obscure regional championships or much lower formulae does nothing but devalue these lower rungs. If GP2 got similar audiences to F1, you might find that the powers to be would be more rapidin their resolve to improve things! Let the series compete with each other.
It also gets only slightly less press coverage yet most "people down the pub" would not be able to name a single GP2 driver.
Also, if we were to take the thread subject to it's literal end, what we'd end up with with is GP2 as the new F1 which in 5 years, would be the same as F1 now.
The "second" tier race series tends to go through fits and starts. I remember not that long ago when F2, F3000 or whatever, was akin to watching paint dry. They have got it right now though!
I've always maintained that the lower rungs need better promotion. The current habit of taking drivers from obscure regional championships or much lower formulae does nothing but devalue these lower rungs. If GP2 got similar audiences to F1, you might find that the powers to be would be more rapidin their resolve to improve things! Let the series compete with each other.
rich-uk said:
steviebee said:
Sort of agree but why does GP2 get a fraction of the TV audience F1 does - even though it's on at a decent time?
What time's it on and what channel? I haven't see it listed before
Part of the support race series to F1 - two races per weekend - endurance race on Sat PM and Sprint race on Sunday AM. Both shown live on Eurosport, Sat about 2PM and Sunday 10/11am.
Great viewing.
rich-uk said:
steviebee said:
Sort of agree but why does GP2 get a fraction of the TV audience F1 does - even though it's on at a decent time?
What time's it on and what channel? I haven't see it listed before
It's usually on ITV1 on the Saturday after the GP weekend, around midday. I don't normally bother to watch it though, because The Cock usually tells us what happened during the GP, and don't see the point in watching a race when I already know the result.
steviebee said:
The current habit of taking drivers from obscure regional championships or much lower formulae does nothing but devalue these lower rungs.
But isn't that the idea, to allow the talented drivers from other championships to dice it out? and if they're good enough, they might* get a chance to go through to F1.
How else are younger drivers going to work their way up the ladder?
*obviously dependent on small things like money and whether the media likes them as much as driving talent
So what's the definition of an "obscure regional championship"?
The thing is, if you happen to be in an "obscure" country (ie. any place other than Europe or the Americas), it's extremely difficult to get anywhere near the sort of countries that are established feeders into international motorsport. Money is the biggest problem, because sponsors don't like giving money to drivers from faraway places or countries that don't have strong motorsporting roots.
Which means that unless categories like GP2, Renault World Series, Champ Cars, Indy, and influential GT championships (eg. ALMS, FIA GT) accept drivers from "obscure regional championships", many promising drivers are going to miss out on having a fair go.
The thing is, if you happen to be in an "obscure" country (ie. any place other than Europe or the Americas), it's extremely difficult to get anywhere near the sort of countries that are established feeders into international motorsport. Money is the biggest problem, because sponsors don't like giving money to drivers from faraway places or countries that don't have strong motorsporting roots.
Which means that unless categories like GP2, Renault World Series, Champ Cars, Indy, and influential GT championships (eg. ALMS, FIA GT) accept drivers from "obscure regional championships", many promising drivers are going to miss out on having a fair go.
Edited by Jungles on Monday 4th September 07:59
steviebee said:
Sort of agree but why does GP2 get a fraction of the TV audience F1 does - even though it's on at a decent time?
It also gets only slightly less press coverage yet most "people down the pub" would not be able to name a single GP2 driver.
It also gets only slightly less press coverage yet most "people down the pub" would not be able to name a single GP2 driver.
I think you've answered your own question there. As a spectator, most sports are more exciting if you have allegiances and a bit of knowledge of the players. I was at Hockenheim this year (3rd year there), and while the GP2 race was on, half the spectators were in the beergarden, or at the merchandise stands, yet the on track action was as you say, way ahead of F1. So to those who want to see unrestricted technical excellence in F1, take a close look at some of the other formulas (GP2, A1, GT etc) and you may well find that it is the flaws that make the sport. The on track action of the F1 may have been processionary (Jacques excepted!), but the appeal is that in knowing the bio of most of the drivers and teams, having allegiances (and a few "hate" figures) you actually feel more involvement.
Having said all of that, anyone who has not seen F1 in the flesh should do so, do the whole weekend and book a hotel near the track so you rub shoulders with some of the lower echelons of the teams. To them you're just some pratt of a punter (and indeed you are), but it does make you feel in some way a part of what's going on rather than a mere spectator.
Edited by rick.e on Monday 4th September 10:42
Edited by rick.e on Monday 4th September 10:44
GravelBen said:
steviebee said:
The current habit of taking drivers from obscure regional championships or much lower formulae does nothing but devalue these lower rungs.
But isn't that the idea, to allow the talented drivers from other championships to dice it out? and if they're good enough, they might* get a chance to go through to F1.
How else are younger drivers going to work their way up the ladder?
You miss my point, that being that by bringing a driver straight from (for argument's sake) F Renault directly into F1 undermines the value of F3, GP2, F Nippon, etc. Drivers should earn the right to progress rather than simply show a bit of form and a lot of cash in order to rise through the ranks. They got right with Kimi, granted, but F1 should be about the best and far too many drivers in F1 at the moment simply have no place being there (IMO).
Jungles said:
So what's the definition of an "obscure regional championship"?
The thing is, if you happen to be in an "obscure" country (ie. any place other than Europe or the Americas), it's extremely difficult to get anywhere near the sort of countries that are established feeders into international motorsport. Money is the biggest problem, because sponsors don't like giving money to drivers from faraway places or countries that don't have strong motorsporting roots.
Which means that unless categories like GP2, Renault World Series, Champ Cars, Indy, and influential GT championships (eg. ALMS, FIA GT) accept drivers from "obscure regional championships", many promising drivers are going to miss out on having a fair go.
The thing is, if you happen to be in an "obscure" country (ie. any place other than Europe or the Americas), it's extremely difficult to get anywhere near the sort of countries that are established feeders into international motorsport. Money is the biggest problem, because sponsors don't like giving money to drivers from faraway places or countries that don't have strong motorsporting roots.
Which means that unless categories like GP2, Renault World Series, Champ Cars, Indy, and influential GT championships (eg. ALMS, FIA GT) accept drivers from "obscure regional championships", many promising drivers are going to miss out on having a fair go.
Edited by Jungles on Monday 4th September 07:59
The FIA have a list of "approved" feeder series, participation in which is required in order to gain a super-license. Included in this are hardly heard off things like Formula Mexico or some such. Wedged up, semi-skilled drivers can go off and compete in these series in relative anominity where the competition is not as great. They do a season or two then turn up in Oxforshire with a blank cheque with all the required credentials - other than world class talent.
It may be a simplistic view but one that I think holds true too often.
rick.e said:
steviebee said:
Sort of agree but why does GP2 get a fraction of the TV audience F1 does - even though it's on at a decent time?
It also gets only slightly less press coverage yet most "people down the pub" would not be able to name a single GP2 driver.
It also gets only slightly less press coverage yet most "people down the pub" would not be able to name a single GP2 driver.
I think you've answered your own question there. As a spectator, most sports are more exciting if you have allegiances and a bit of knowledge of the players. I was at Hockenheim this year (3rd year there), and while the GP2 race was on, half the spectators were in the beergarden, or at the merchandise stands, yet the on track action was as you say, way ahead of F1. So to those who want to see unrestricted technical excellence in F1, take a close look at some of the other formulas (GP2, A1, GT etc) and you may well find that it is the flaws that make the sport. The on track action of the F1 may have been processionary (Jacques excepted!), but the appeal is that in knowing the bio of most of the drivers and teams, having allegiances (and a few "hate" figures) you actually feel more involvement.
Having said all of that, anyone who has not seen F1 in the flesh should do so, do the whole weekend and book a hotel near the track so you rub shoulders with some of the lower echelons of the teams. To them you're just some pratt of a punter (and indeed you are), but it does make you feel in some way a part of what's going on rather than a mere spectator.
Edited by rick.e on Monday 4th September 10:42
Edited by rick.e on Monday 4th September 10:44
Very good point.
I think this is where football scores a point in that you need not be a die-hard fan to understand the key players and stories - these get rammed down your throat each week so you don't have to work at it. With F1, you do.
Without excpetion, those that I've introduced to F1 over the years by actually taking them to either a GP or Test Day have become avid fans. Conversely, I've been to quite a few premiership matches over the past couple of years and still couldn't give a toss!
steviebee said:
GravelBen said:
steviebee said:
The current habit of taking drivers from obscure regional championships or much lower formulae does nothing but devalue these lower rungs.
But isn't that the idea, to allow the talented drivers from other championships to dice it out? and if they're good enough, they might* get a chance to go through to F1.
How else are younger drivers going to work their way up the ladder?
You miss my point, that being that by bringing a driver straight from (for argument's sake) F Renault directly into F1 undermines the value of F3, GP2, F Nippon, etc. Drivers should earn the right to progress rather than simply show a bit of form and a lot of cash in order to rise through the ranks. They got right with Kimi, granted, but F1 should be about the best and far too many drivers in F1 at the moment simply have no place being there (IMO).
Sorry I misunderstood, though you were saying GP2 devalued itself by taking drivers from lesser known 'obscure regional formula'. I'm in NZ, so you probably won't have heard of any of our race series (try www.toyotaracing.co.nz for one - fairly similiar to Formula Renault), but it seems to be quite difficult for drivers from down here (or even Aussie to a lesser degree) to get noticed in modern global motorsport even with talent.
Mind you, our media tends to ignore anyone who doesn't drive a V8 Tourer (which Aussies like to call V8 supercars)...
steviebee said:
The FIA have a list of "approved" feeder series, participation in which is required in order to gain a super-license. Included in this are hardly heard off things like Formula Mexico or some such. Wedged up, semi-skilled drivers can go off and compete in these series in relative anominity where the competition is not as great. They do a season or two then turn up in Oxforshire with a blank cheque with all the required credentials - other than world class talent.
I thought you were talking about the feeder series, not F1. Miscommunication strikes again!
However, you aren't entirely correct. In another thread (re: Yuji Ide losing his licence), I posted the full regulations regarding the issuance of the Super Licence. I'll quote the relevant section of my post here:
I said:
Here are the full rules, according to FAI's International Sporting Code, Appendix L (22nd March 2006):
www.fia.com/resources/documents/1797101136__Appendix_L_a.pdf
--------------------------------------------------------
5. Qualification for the Super licence
5.1 The Super licence is issued by the Formula One Commission, on its sole decision, following a specific request and recommendation from the driver’s ASN, accompanied by his/her record of results, and on the following conditions:
i) the driver is party to an agreement with a team entered in the FIA Formula One World Championship to race a Formula One car in the Championship in the year of application as first, second or reserve driver,
ii) the driver is the holder of a Grade A licence,
iii) the driver:
either a): has been classifi ed in the first 4 of the final classification of the FIA F3000 International Championship within the previous 2 years,
or b): has been classified in the first 3 in at least 5 races, or in the first 6 in at least 10 races, of the FIA F3000 International Championship, within the previous 2 years,
or c): has been classified in the first 3 of the final classification of the Japanese F3000 Championship within the previous 2 years,
or d): has been classified in the first 6 of the final classification of the Indy Racing League (IRL) series or of the Champ Car World Series in the United States within the previous 2 years,
or e): is the current champion of the Euro 3000 Series (the title is considered valid for 12 months from the last race of his or her championship season),
or f): is the current champion of the Formula 3 Euro Series or of the principal National F3 Championship of one of the following countries: Great Britain, Italy, Japan, (the title is considered valid for 12 months from the last race of his or her championship season),
or g): has started in at least 5 races counting for the FIA Formula One World Championship for Drivers the previous year,
or h): (exceptionally), has a record of results which is judged sufficient, unanimously, by the Bureau of the Formula One Commission and has driven at least 300 km in a current Formula One car at racing speeds, over a maximum period of 2 days, certified by the ASN of the country in which the test took place.
Only results obtained with single-seater formula cars will be taken into consideration. Should the members of the Bureau not agree unanimously, the Commission in its entirety will be consulted. In this case, the complete application must be received by the FIA at least 14 days before scrutineering for the first FIA Formula One World Championship event in which the candidate is to compete.
iv) the annual Super licence fee is paid to the FIA.
5.2 The driver’s name will remain on the list of those eligible for the Super Licence for 12 months; if at the end of this period he/she no longer fulfi ls the above criteria, the case may be reviewed by the Formula One Commission.
5.3 A driver accepted under the terms of iii) h) above will be so for a probationary period of one year during which the Super Licence will be granted provisionally for three months at a time and subject to review.
www.fia.com/resources/documents/1797101136__Appendix_L_a.pdf
--------------------------------------------------------
5. Qualification for the Super licence
5.1 The Super licence is issued by the Formula One Commission, on its sole decision, following a specific request and recommendation from the driver’s ASN, accompanied by his/her record of results, and on the following conditions:
i) the driver is party to an agreement with a team entered in the FIA Formula One World Championship to race a Formula One car in the Championship in the year of application as first, second or reserve driver,
ii) the driver is the holder of a Grade A licence,
iii) the driver:
either a): has been classifi ed in the first 4 of the final classification of the FIA F3000 International Championship within the previous 2 years,
or b): has been classified in the first 3 in at least 5 races, or in the first 6 in at least 10 races, of the FIA F3000 International Championship, within the previous 2 years,
or c): has been classified in the first 3 of the final classification of the Japanese F3000 Championship within the previous 2 years,
or d): has been classified in the first 6 of the final classification of the Indy Racing League (IRL) series or of the Champ Car World Series in the United States within the previous 2 years,
or e): is the current champion of the Euro 3000 Series (the title is considered valid for 12 months from the last race of his or her championship season),
or f): is the current champion of the Formula 3 Euro Series or of the principal National F3 Championship of one of the following countries: Great Britain, Italy, Japan, (the title is considered valid for 12 months from the last race of his or her championship season),
or g): has started in at least 5 races counting for the FIA Formula One World Championship for Drivers the previous year,
or h): (exceptionally), has a record of results which is judged sufficient, unanimously, by the Bureau of the Formula One Commission and has driven at least 300 km in a current Formula One car at racing speeds, over a maximum period of 2 days, certified by the ASN of the country in which the test took place.
Only results obtained with single-seater formula cars will be taken into consideration. Should the members of the Bureau not agree unanimously, the Commission in its entirety will be consulted. In this case, the complete application must be received by the FIA at least 14 days before scrutineering for the first FIA Formula One World Championship event in which the candidate is to compete.
iv) the annual Super licence fee is paid to the FIA.
5.2 The driver’s name will remain on the list of those eligible for the Super Licence for 12 months; if at the end of this period he/she no longer fulfi ls the above criteria, the case may be reviewed by the Formula One Commission.
5.3 A driver accepted under the terms of iii) h) above will be so for a probationary period of one year during which the Super Licence will be granted provisionally for three months at a time and subject to review.
As you can see, while the F1 Commission will accept applications from those who have not attained the prescribed result in one of the specified categories (ie. F3000, Formula Nippon, IRL, Champ Car World Series, F3 series of Euro, UK, Japan, Italy), their record in any alternative single-seater championship (they only count single-seaters) must be extraordinary. The Super Licence granted in this fashion undergoes closer scrutiny, hence perhaps the reason for Mr Yuji Ide's loss of licence.
So I don't really think clause 5.3-iii-h reduces the level of competition, but it does provide one avenue for drivers who may be extremely talented, but did not have the money or connections to make it into the prescribed championships.
Why do I have such faith in the maintenance of driving excellence in F1? Because from a business and marketing perspective, no F1 team will be silly enough to invest in a numpty driver. There has been borderline exceptions in the past, but these are few and far between (Minardi comes to mind, but I can't think of anyone else at the moment). So even if a top dog from Formula Unknown rocks up with a blank cheque and a neat CV, they'll probably get the big boot unless they have something amazing to offer. But given that they probably never progressed past Formula Ford or something similarly junior, whatever they can offer would probably end up being worthless to a F1 team anyway.
Edited by Jungles on Tuesday 5th September 11:06
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