No Cat

[kenp]

This is one that may test DVD's knowledge.
Imagine you have a run off the mill modernish car.
1.You remove the cat. Are you guilty of an offence? If so which?
2.You remove the cat and pass the MOT.Are you guilty of an offence? If so which?
Homologation standards and Construction and Use Regs come to mind.
Thank you.

Edited by kenp on Sunday 3rd September 23:28

[vonhosen]

All vehicles fitted with a catalytic converter as standard since 1st August 1992 will have to have one.
They are also subject to a catalyst emissions test as part of the MOT.

Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 3rd September 22:31

[kenp]

vonhosen said:

All vehicles fitted with a catalytic converter as standard since 1st August 1992 will have to have one.
They are also subject to a catalyst emissions test as part of the MOT.

Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 3rd September 22:31

I think you'll find you are wrong. there is no MOT requirement for a cat. MOT simply deals with meeting emission levels.
What is the offence if you don't have a cat?

[vonhosen]

Perhaps I've worded it poorly.
All petrol-engined class IV vehicles first used on or after 1st August 1992 (i.e., K prefix registrations onwards) will have to go to a catalyst MoT station.

Not all petrol-engined class IV vehicles first used on or after 1st August 1992 had to be fitted with a catalyst. However, the catalyst station will be able to identify whether or not a catalyst should be fitted and apply the appropriate emission tests. Vehicles fitted with catalysts and first used before 1st August 1992 are not subject to the catalyst emissions test as part of the MOT.

Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 3rd September 23:01

[kenp]

I am not looking for an argument, just trying to get to the bottom of this. Below is a true transcript from VOSA:
quote/
Richard G Dixon
To: XXXXXXXX 30/08/2006 14:36
Subject: Re: Fw: Cat removal advice(Document link: Richard
G Dixon)

Hi xxx
Thank you for your enquiry which has been passed to me for a response.

Unfortunately the Vehicle & Operator Services Agency (VOSA) have no website
link that explains the intricacies of this particular enquiry so I will
endeavour to explain the situation. The requirements for an MOT test is
that emission limits meet the legislated limits specified for the age of
the vehicle. With regard to MOT test standards, If a catalyst has been
removed but the emission limits remain within those limits the vehicle
would be considered as satisfactory for emissions purposes. It would not
fail the test purely because the catalyst had been removed, however with
most vehicle emission control systems the catalyst is an integral part of
that system and normally the catalyst emission limits would be NOT met with
it removed. This would then not only cause the vehicle to fail the MOT test
but may render the vehicle owner liable to prosecution if the vehicle was
continued to be used in that condition. It is an offence not to maintain
vehicle emissions to the minimum limits especially if it is knowingly
done..

I am only able to advise you on the standards relating to the MOT test
which are sometimes less prescriptive than Construction & Use Regulations.
For further advice on the full legalities of removing a catalyst from an
'in Service' vehicle (even if it then still meets the minimum emission
limits) which may contravene other regulations I would advise you to
contact the Department for Transport (DfT). This can be done through their
website www.dft.co.uk and they will be able to advise you further on
compliance with other Regulations if a catalyst is removed.

I trust this information will be of use to you.
/unquote

Apart from the MOT issue. Would you be committing an offence driving without a cat and specifically WHAT offence would you be committing?

[vonhosen]

I believe you are correct that currently as far as the MOT is concerned, the vehicle if originally fitted with a CAT that is subsequently removed, only has to meet the CAT fitted emission test, not actually have the CAT fitted.

[kenp]

Would you be committing an offence driving without a cat and specifically WHAT offence would you be committing?

[vonhosen]

kenp said:

Would you be committing an offence driving without a cat and specifically WHAT offence would you be committing?

How old is the vehicle as it may have some bearing & I'll do some digging.

[kenp]

Let's say 2002
Thank you.

Edited by kenp on Sunday 3rd September 23:38

[vonhosen]

kenp said:

Let's say 2002
Thank you.

Edited by kenp on Sunday 3rd September 23:38

For vehicles first used on or after 1st Jan 2001 , it's Reg 61A of the Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986 that applies to vehicles emissions.

Reg 61A2 said:

Subject to paragraphs (5) to (7) and Schedule 7XA, a motor vehicle in any category must comply with any design, construction and equipment requirements and limit values specified for a motor vehicle of that category and weight by a Community Directive specified in item 1 or 2 and from the date specified by that Community Directive.

If I read that right then the and suggests that not only do the limit values apply, but also the design, construction & equipment requirements of the EU directive.

The EEC directives in item 1 & 2 are

ITEM 1.
The applicable Community Directive or ECE Regulation is Community Directive 70/220/EEC.
The amending Community Directive (or ECE Regulation) are Community Directive 96/69/EC (or ECE Regulation 83.04); Community Directive 98/69/EC; Community Directive 1999/102/EC; Community Directive 2001/1/EC; Community Directive 2001/27/EC.

ITEM 2.
The applicable Community Directive or ECE Regulation is Community Directive 88/77/EEC or ECE Regulation 49.01.
The amending Community Directive or ECE Regulation are Community Directive 91/542/EEC or ECE Regulation 49.02; Community Directive 1999/96/EC; Community Directive 2001/27/EC.

Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 3rd September 23:53

[deeps]

vonhosen said:

I believe you are correct that currently as far as the MOT is concerned, the vehicle if originally fitted with a CAT that is subsequently removed, only has to meet the CAT fitted emission test, not actually have the CAT fitted.

Just to add, if a vehicle is registered before 31st July 1995 and has had the CAT removed, as long as that vehicle is not on the emission database, then a NON-CAT TEST is carried out using the same values as pre 92 cars.

[TVR 3X]

What rules would apply if I transplanted a diesel engine into a car with catted petrol engine (plus the whole thing about informing DVLA of the change and the insurance co.).

I presume that it would not have to have a cat and that diesel tests only would apply.

Russ

[Dwight VanDriver]

Off the top of my head and without research I understood that other than what may apply under type Approval there was nothing concrete as to the requirement for MOT to fit a cat and that without one where one could fall foul is in the emmissions being exceeded.

Vosa would tend top support me?

dvd

Edited by Dwight VanDriver on Monday 4th September 08:37

[kenp]

vonhosen said:

kenp said:

Let's say 2002
Thank you.

Edited by kenp on Sunday 3rd September 23:38

For vehicles first used on or after 1st Jan 2001 , it's Reg 61A of the Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986 that applies to vehicles emissions.

Reg 61A2 said:

Subject to paragraphs (5) to (7) and Schedule 7XA, a motor vehicle in any category must comply with any design, construction and equipment requirements and limit values specified for a motor vehicle of that category and weight by a Community Directive specified in item 1 or 2 and from the date specified by that Community Directive.

If I read that right then the and suggests that not only do the limit values apply, but also the design, construction & equipment requirements of the EU directive.

The EEC directives in item 1 & 2 are

ITEM 1.
The applicable Community Directive or ECE Regulation is Community Directive 70/220/EEC.
The amending Community Directive (or ECE Regulation) are Community Directive 96/69/EC (or ECE Regulation 83.04); Community Directive 98/69/EC; Community Directive 1999/102/EC; Community Directive 2001/1/EC; Community Directive 2001/27/EC.

ITEM 2.
The applicable Community Directive or ECE Regulation is Community Directive 88/77/EEC or ECE Regulation 49.01.
The amending Community Directive or ECE Regulation are Community Directive 91/542/EEC or ECE Regulation 49.02; Community Directive 1999/96/EC; Community Directive 2001/27/EC.

Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 3rd September 23:53

Specifically WHAT offence would you be committing ?

Edited by kenp on Monday 4th September 08:43

[jith]

vonhosen said:

kenp said:

Would you be committing an offence driving without a cat and specifically WHAT offence would you be committing?

How old is the vehicle as it may have some bearing & I'll do some digging.

Let me clear this up from a technical point of view VH.
What controls the emission output, and in particular the reading an MOT tester will obtain on an exhaust test, is the Lambda sensor, not the cat.
If you remove the cat and destroy the interior precious metal content, refit it and run the vehicle AT IDLE, which is the only test carried out for emissions during an MOT, there will be a very slightly increased gas flow due to removal of back pressure that the cat would have created.
Any difference in gas content that this would result in will be dealt with by the Lambda sensor as it will simply adjust the mixture to keep it within predetermined levels.
In other words, visibly the vehicle's exhaust system will look identical to the tester, or indeed anyone else, and the emission reading will be exactly the same at idle.
Without removing the cat and visually inspecting the interior, it is impossible to tell that it is missing.
This is especially true of some of the Audi and Mercedes systems, which are so efficient that removing the cat makes virtually no difference to the emission output.
I recently carried out a diagnostic on a 6 litre, V12 Mercedes, a monster of an engine with twin exhaust systems and cats, one for each bank.
The right hand cylinder bank was seriously overheating and it turned out to be a blocked cat.
To get the vehicle back on the road we removed the core of the cat and refitted it releasing an instant 400 BHP!!!
As an exercise we hooked it up to an onboard portable diagnostic and ran it at all sorts of different speeds out on the road.
There was virtually no difference between the right hand and left hand cylinder banks, a surprise indeed and testimony to how right the Merc engineers got the engine construction and management setup.
There is no right in law for an MOT tester to fail a de-catted vehicle, even if he KNOWS the cat has been removed, as long as the vehicle passes the emission test.

[telecat]

Isn't there a Cat "hire" service in California?? They run the car all year without a cat then when required fit one for the test.

[Flat in Fifth]

What about?

Commission Directive 2001/27/EC

6.1.2.1. The use of a defeat device and/or an irrational emission control strategy is forbidden.

def’n defeat device
2.28 "defeat device" means a device which measures, senses or responds to operating variables (e.g. vehicle speed, engine speed, gear used, temperature, intake pressure or any other parameter) for the purpose of activating, modulating, delaying or deactivating the operation of any component or function of the emission control system such that the effectiveness of the emission control system is reduced under conditions encountered during normal vehicle use unless the use of such a device is substantially included in the applied emission certification test procedures."

2.30. "irrational emission control strategy" means any strategy or measure that, when the vehicle is operated under normal conditions of use, reduces the effectiveness of the emission control system to a level below that expected on the applicable emission test procedures."

6.1.2.3. An engine control device, function, system or measure that operates during the conditions specified in section 6.1.2.4 and which results in the use of a different or modified engine control strategy to that normally employed during the applicable emission test cycles will be permitted if, in complying with the requirements of sections 6.1.3 and/or 6.1.4, it is fully demonstrated that the measure does not reduce the effectiveness of the emission control system. In all other cases, such devices shall be considered to be a defeat device.

FiF comment:-
Not found the bit of UK legislation which puts the above in place but it must be somewhere knowing the anal way Uk slavishly enats euro babble.

However everything else one reads, so far at least, focusses on the actual emisions cf the imposed limits, which would tend to support VOSA comment, I think??

finally,
:Nargis:
Did you know there are 6 million cats?
:/Nargis:

Already got my coat thanks..... taxi!

FiF

Edited by Flat in Fifth on Monday 4th September 11:49

[vonhosen]

Flat in Fifth said:

What about?

Commission Directive 2001/27/EC


FiF comment:-
Not found the bit of UK legislation which puts the above in place but it must be somewhere knowing the anal way Uk slavishly enats euro babble.

It's in item 1 & item 2, referred to in my post under Reg 61A RV(C&U)R 1986.

Edited by vonhosen on Monday 4th September 17:52

[Mr E]

jith said:

How old is the vehicle as it may have some bearing & I'll do some digging.

Let me clear this up from a technical point of view VH.
What controls the emission output, and in particular the reading an MOT tester will obtain on an exhaust test, is the Lambda sensor, not the cat.
If you remove the cat and destroy the interior precious metal content, refit it and run the vehicle AT IDLE, which is the only test carried out for emissions during an MOT, there will be a very slightly increased gas flow due to removal of back pressure that the cat would have created.
Any difference in gas content that this would result in will be dealt with by the Lambda sensor as it will simply adjust the mixture to keep it within predetermined levels.
In other words, visibly the vehicle's exhaust system will look identical to the tester, or indeed anyone else, and the emission reading will be exactly the same at idle.[/quote]

Interesting. With a gutted cat, my car goes off the scale.....

[jith]

Mr E said:

jith said:

How old is the vehicle as it may have some bearing & I'll do some digging.

Let me clear this up from a technical point of view VH.
What controls the emission output, and in particular the reading an MOT tester will obtain on an exhaust test, is the Lambda sensor, not the cat.
If you remove the cat and destroy the interior precious metal content, refit it and run the vehicle AT IDLE, which is the only test carried out for emissions during an MOT, there will be a very slightly increased gas flow due to removal of back pressure that the cat would have created.
Any difference in gas content that this would result in will be dealt with by the Lambda sensor as it will simply adjust the mixture to keep it within predetermined levels.
In other words, visibly the vehicle's exhaust system will look identical to the tester, or indeed anyone else, and the emission reading will be exactly the same at idle.

Interesting. With a gutted cat, my car goes off the scale.....[/quote]


Then there is clearly a problem in your management system; possibly the lambda sensor itself or the ECU. Either way you need to get it checked out.
I have to say the worst problems I have had with emissions on modern vehicles are Rover and Japanese stuff.