RE: Warning signs to replace scameras
Monday 4th September 2006
Speed limits may be a very blunt instrument when it comes to road safety but official realisation that cameras don't save lives is dawning.
Warning signs to replace scameras
Ineffective cameras replaced by warnings
That seems to be the thinking behind the move of the Lothian and Borders camera partnership, which this week announced that it'll be putting up speed warning signs on stretches of road that are currently patrolled by speed camera vans.
The vehicle-activated signs will only be installed in areas with 30mph or 40mph limits, and will be triggered if an approaching car exceeds the limit plus 10 per cent. Then they'll issue a flashing warning -- and in some cases, a smiley or a frown.
The organisation said that the cameras would still patrol but, if drivers slowed down, they would be withdrawn. At stake are not just drivers' licences but also the cost: cameras cost £50,000 each, while the signs cost just £3,000, so they save your taxes too.
Sites include:
- Edinbrgh area: A90 north of Cramond Brig, A70 Balerno and Ferry Road north of Edinburgh.
- West Lothian: A71 in Polbeth, A706 in Whitburn.
- Borders: A7 at Magdala Terrace in Galashiels and Stow, A72 on Innerleithen Road, Peebles, and on the A698 in Coldstream.
Paul Smith, founder of the road safety Safe Speed campaign, said: "Drivers will be relieved when they find they are not running the gauntlet of the speed camera vans. Vehicle-activated signs are proven to be far more effective than speed cameras when they are used correctly."
Discussion
We have some of these near a local School, so you come around a blind corner and see two of these signs flashing at you "20Mph" - either you or the car in front is going to fast.
So your eye is immediately drawn to the big flashing sign 10 feet up and the air and you are then NOT looking at a road full of cars with parents collecting 5yr kids.
So as safe as a Scamera then? Which of course has a similar effect - i.e diverting drivers eyes away from the road!
Paul
So your eye is immediately drawn to the big flashing sign 10 feet up and the air and you are then NOT looking at a road full of cars with parents collecting 5yr kids.
So as safe as a Scamera then? Which of course has a similar effect - i.e diverting drivers eyes away from the road!
Paul
I like them better then the scamera's and also think they will be better working in your head and be extra carefull specialy for people never bin there before to warn to be carefull cause its a not so overseen area? or dangerous area or public area's around the corner..all better then brake because its a scamera!
In the Netherlands they take away some fixd camera's on places that where just cashcows? and on places where its so bussy that you can't drive fast
so less scary brakers and more comonsence? lets hope so..its getting hopefully a bit better and at least its a start??
GTRene
In the Netherlands they take away some fixd camera's on places that where just cashcows? and on places where its so bussy that you can't drive fast
so less scary brakers and more comonsence? lets hope so..its getting hopefully a bit better and at least its a start?? GTRene
thondwe said:
We have some of these near a local School, so you come around a blind corner and see two of these signs flashing at you "20Mph" - either you or the car in front is going to fast.
So your eye is immediately drawn to the big flashing sign 10 feet up and the air and you are then NOT looking at a road full of cars with parents collecting 5yr kids.
So as safe as a Scamera then? Which of course has a similar effect - i.e diverting drivers eyes away from the road!
Paul
So your eye is immediately drawn to the big flashing sign 10 feet up and the air and you are then NOT looking at a road full of cars with parents collecting 5yr kids.
So as safe as a Scamera then? Which of course has a similar effect - i.e diverting drivers eyes away from the road!
Paul
Coming round a blind corner near a school, you wouldn't be doing more than 20 anyway, would you?
"and will be triggered if an approaching car exceeds the limit plus 10 per cent."
Ones round our way trigger at indicated 40.5 which is actually true 39-ish in my car. So PL plus 10% before trigger is better imho. At the moment it's a cry wolf situation.
But agree that they slow people down better than cameras, and tbh haven't afterwards seen a scamp on any road where they have been installed.
Ones round our way trigger at indicated 40.5 which is actually true 39-ish in my car. So PL plus 10% before trigger is better imho. At the moment it's a cry wolf situation.
But agree that they slow people down better than cameras, and tbh haven't afterwards seen a scamp on any road where they have been installed.
I like these signs. When I'm driving round suburban areas whether I know them or not, sometimes the fact you are speeding is not intentional...and its nice to have that "polite shock" element to remind you to slow down, as opposed to an instant 3 points/£60 no questions asked assault.
As for being "made" to look up at a sign rather than at the road ahead... personally speaking I spend more time looking at fellow drivers who have nice cars, scenery, signposts or the rear view mirror to make this a mute point, doesn't mean I don't concentrate...I'm just a realist when it come to focusing purely on the car in front...I prefer to be looking at the car in front of that on the whole... and base alot of my actions on peripheral vision..
As for being "made" to look up at a sign rather than at the road ahead... personally speaking I spend more time looking at fellow drivers who have nice cars, scenery, signposts or the rear view mirror to make this a mute point, doesn't mean I don't concentrate...I'm just a realist when it come to focusing purely on the car in front...I prefer to be looking at the car in front of that on the whole... and base alot of my actions on peripheral vision..
I like these. There's a really good one in one of the villages just off the A24 - it flashes up "30 - SLOW DOWN" as you enter what would be the braking zone from the national speed limit and it seems to work quite well, drivers actually brake down to the limit rather than coast through at speed.
The only issue I've had with them is that sometimes they trigger at too low a speed, and in doing so every so often cause an overcautious driver to slow down to silly speeds for corners or the like.
Safety-wise, they're probably better than those displays which flash up the speed of vehicle, which are an awful temptation towards hoofing it and seeing how high a figure you can get.
The only issue I've had with them is that sometimes they trigger at too low a speed, and in doing so every so often cause an overcautious driver to slow down to silly speeds for corners or the like.
Safety-wise, they're probably better than those displays which flash up the speed of vehicle, which are an awful temptation towards hoofing it and seeing how high a figure you can get.
Flat in Fifth said:
But agree that they slow people down better than cameras, and tbh haven't afterwards seen a scamp on any road where they have been installed.
But do people see then and assume there will be a camera, hence they slow down?
There is one approaching a bend near us, road is a 50mph, bend is quite comfortable at 50mph, but even if you are doing under the speed limit it appears to flash (I am testing this one by going past it a little slower each time to see if it ever doesn't flash). Dieselnut drove past it about 5:30am recently, and said it absolutely blinded him.
percy flage said:
Sorry mate, but if you are going round a blind corner after which you know there is a school with a road likely to be full of cars and kids, you should not be going at a speed where being distracted briefly by a sign telling you to slow down is going to cause you a problem.
Circular argument, surely?
If you're sensible & doing less than 20 it's not going to go off, so no distraction. The sign's aimed at those who are going too fast, who then shouldn't be distracted by a sign just when they should be looking where they're going, seeing the danger, & slowing down pronto anyway.
Not saying they don't have their place, and I prefer them to scameras, but round my way there are some that catch your eye just when you should be concentrating on what's in front of you.
www.multimap.com/map/photo.cgi?client=public&X=332500&Y=402500&scale=10000&width=700&height=400&gride=332078.196177827&gridn=403569.751035937&lang=&db=freegaz&coordsys=gb
On the main Road from Liverpool to Southport there is a bend in the middle of Ince Blundell Woods. On the approaches to this bend there are speed operated warnings.
This is because people have died because they have been going too fast for the conditions, usually in the middle of the night with a combination of frozen tree sap and oil, forming the top surface of the road. Many (not all) have involved alcohol.
BUT I really can't see how it might improve safety, because it's TURNED off at Night.
According to the Local Paper this is because local BOY racers were using it to see who could get up to the highest speed before braking hard for the bend.
I went past the other night at 3 in the morning and had to remind myself that 100 mph was not going to work. Luckily I was sober, It was dry and I remembered in good time to slow to a reasonable safe speed. 60 in 40 ?
On the main Road from Liverpool to Southport there is a bend in the middle of Ince Blundell Woods. On the approaches to this bend there are speed operated warnings.
This is because people have died because they have been going too fast for the conditions, usually in the middle of the night with a combination of frozen tree sap and oil, forming the top surface of the road. Many (not all) have involved alcohol.
BUT I really can't see how it might improve safety, because it's TURNED off at Night.
According to the Local Paper this is because local BOY racers were using it to see who could get up to the highest speed before braking hard for the bend.
I went past the other night at 3 in the morning and had to remind myself that 100 mph was not going to work. Luckily I was sober, It was dry and I remembered in good time to slow to a reasonable safe speed. 60 in 40 ?
I am loving these arguments that these signs distract your eye and that you should somehow have you eyes glued to the tarmac in front of you. Observing only the road in front is idiotic and dangerous particularly in a school area (as given in an example), you need to be able to take in info from various viewpoints whilst driving and this will give you time to anticipate various scenarios, like for instance where a child might step out. You don't need to stare at these things to know what they are telling you, peripheral vision will normally suffice.
For me they are brilliant at making me slow down, they also show the speed you should be doing (something cameras fail to do but could do easily). The passive nature (i.e. no points or penalties) avoids the kneejerk late breaking which is so dangerous around camera sites, you know you can pass these signs still doing say 35 and continue to slow to 30 so your braking is less dramatic, with cameras you know that you have to scrub the speed before you pass it. I have also seen plenty of people slam on brakes when doing 38 in a 40 when they see a camera because they suddenly doubt what the limit should be, quite why the limit cannot be indicated on the back of the cameras I don't know but that is a seperate argument I guess.
For me they are brilliant at making me slow down, they also show the speed you should be doing (something cameras fail to do but could do easily). The passive nature (i.e. no points or penalties) avoids the kneejerk late breaking which is so dangerous around camera sites, you know you can pass these signs still doing say 35 and continue to slow to 30 so your braking is less dramatic, with cameras you know that you have to scrub the speed before you pass it. I have also seen plenty of people slam on brakes when doing 38 in a 40 when they see a camera because they suddenly doubt what the limit should be, quite why the limit cannot be indicated on the back of the cameras I don't know but that is a seperate argument I guess.
I'd certainly welcome them in place of ANY camera. But then must confess to being biased after being gatso'd coming south on A68 just south of Jedburgh last Friday. Damn camera was one of those facing me on OPPOSITE side of road !-but with a set of white "ladders" on each side of road. Snooper S3 didn't even alert me. 
The vehicle-activated signs will only be installed in areas with 30mph or 40mph limits, and will be triggered if an approaching car exceeds the limit plus 10 per cent. Then they'll issue a flashing warning -- and in some cases, a smiley or a frown."
As scameras will still operate during the trials, I suggest a flashing '£' symbol might be more appropriate!
As scameras will still operate during the trials, I suggest a flashing '£' symbol might be more appropriate!
pcwilson said:
thondwe said:
We have some of these near a local School, so you come around a blind corner and see two of these signs flashing at you "20Mph" - either you or the car in front is going to fast.
So your eye is immediately drawn to the big flashing sign 10 feet up and the air and you are then NOT looking at a road full of cars with parents collecting 5yr kids.
So as safe as a Scamera then? Which of course has a similar effect - i.e diverting drivers eyes away from the road!
Paul
So your eye is immediately drawn to the big flashing sign 10 feet up and the air and you are then NOT looking at a road full of cars with parents collecting 5yr kids.
So as safe as a Scamera then? Which of course has a similar effect - i.e diverting drivers eyes away from the road!
Paul
Coming round a blind corner near a school, you wouldn't be doing more than 20 anyway, would you?
No I wouldn't as I know that there's a school there - I drive the route daily!
BUT, in any case the road in question is on a main tourist route - so there's loads of drivers who even if they see the School sign, wouldn't slow until they see the 20mph restriction and then be distracted by a big flashing sign. So IMHO it's poorly placed.
But my objection to these things remains - they distract the driver
Paul
Im unconvinced.
If you notice, they say "we'll remove the cameras *IF* you slow down".
Bribe huh?
Guess what? Speed dosent kill, so whats the point?
They still havent learned have they?
Its partially a positive move(nobody like scameras) its actually disguised as good news even though theyve learned nothing, theyre still fixated by speed pure and simple.
Its still business as usual, slow down cos we say so.
Well screw em!
If you notice, they say "we'll remove the cameras *IF* you slow down".
Bribe huh?
Guess what? Speed dosent kill, so whats the point?
They still havent learned have they?
Its partially a positive move(nobody like scameras) its actually disguised as good news even though theyve learned nothing, theyre still fixated by speed pure and simple.
Its still business as usual, slow down cos we say so.
Well screw em!
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff